OCEAN'S TWELVE discussion (NO SPOILERS) - Page 2

Caught it this afternoon and I got no complaints. It's an incredibly different film from the first one and yet it still shares that nice, breezy feeling. Everyone seems to be having fun and there are definitely some great gags. I don't know if it's Best Film of the Year material (especially in a year like this), but it's certainly not a lesser sequel by any means.

Maybe those critics felt that the original technique wasn't being used at the disposal of something so ephemeral; maybe they object morally to a style that was attached to an artist movement co-opted on an aesthetic level only. This is way more Claude Lelouch than Jean Luc Godard, that's for sure. The technique may be startling, and the film is entertaining enough, but it's so weightless that I can't imagine even thinking about it tomorrow. I enjoyed it. I had a good time, but it is a film about nothing other than everyone having a good time. That's fine, I didn't find it as grating as the first. Everyone found their rhythms, the characters were better developed and it had a loose airy quality matched by the direction. But I think the ending sums up the movie best.

I do think David Holmes score should be nominated for an Oscar, and I will probably buy the soundtrack; if it weren't for Jon Brion's work on Eternal Sunshine, it'd be my favorite score of the year.

Also Cassel's big scene (if you know what I mean) is straight jacked from Da Ali G Movie. It was executed better here, but just the same.

A fantastic Friday night movie, and incredibly fun (if a bit convuluted). Cassel's character deserves his own spinoff, if you ask me.

I really enjoyed it. I'm glad they went the direction they did.

Lots of exceptional camera tricks, shots, and devices. I really had a good time.

Better than the original, but nothing without it.

More later, quite busy to say too much right now.

Saw this film last night which began great with the new Batman teaser (blew my nuts off!) but I digress.

This is a pretty ingenious film when you sit back and think about it. After the film, I went back in my mind to try and follow all the damn clues and they all work. But all the gags worked for me. The filmmaking aspects are fantastic. And it's obviously clear this cast had a blast making this film. Still, the pace was excellent. I love the fact that during the first hour, the film makes it seem that the team is really not going to pull it out and they're having problems trying to figure out a way out of this mess, yet at the end, you see that they pretty much had almost complete control of the situation. It's very different from the first film but doesn't work without it. I'm really looking forward to watching the two films back to back on afternoon.

I'd have to put this in my Top Ten of the year, and it'll probably stay there. By the way, the soundtrack and score kills.

Indeed. Going today to find the soundtrack. The piece with Cassiel and the lasers was my favorite.

And our trailers had.. Constantine featuring Keanu Reaves, immediately followed by the Pacifier featuring Vin Diesel. I don't think you could have gotten two polar opposite movies back-to-back if you tried.

Yeah, I'm adding the soundtrack to my Christmas list this year. Hope its not too late.

EDIT: Loved the Constantine teaser. Hadn't seen the whole thing all the way through until last night.

I enjoyed the first, despite some clunky performances and stupid cameos.

This movie is better. The french new wave filmmaking is visually superior to the slick 60's heist schtick used last time, the improvisational script here allows the great cast to interact like real people rather than spitting out tired, groan inducing Ted Griffin scripted clap trap. Plus, in one shot, the beautiful Zeta-Jones looks like a black haired Bardot. Yummy.

It is mindless entertainment fluff, but I'd take this over other studio blockbusters any day of the week. The whole movie is about performance, about acting in particular, which is interesting to think about. This explains the numerous cameos (mostly featuring people from other Soderbergh films) and refrences to acting and acting techniques (accents, rehersals, improvisation, etc).

Plus, it's got the greatest "plane lands at an airport" shot I've seen in...ever.

edit: and absolutely right on about the David Holmes score.

I dug it. Such a fun film that wasn't afraid to be smart and clever. Above all, it was entertaining and the cast's' visible enthusiasm was absolutely contagious. I don't think I would've rated it as high as Nick did but it's certainly a top ten flick in my book.

Nice film, nothing more. I "got" all the new wave filmmaking stuff, loved the music... just had a nice time. But a forgettable movie overall.

I am planted firmly in the 'meh' reaction to this movie. Saw it as half of a double-feature with Blade: Trinity, and definitely preferred it over the other fare that evening, but honestly didn't enjoy the hell out of it. I felt like I was watching a movie striving to be 'Snatch', and then falling kind of short.

Was that movie titled "Clit?"

Okay I really like the movie, but the one thing that bugged the hell outta me during was the holographic egg. Is there some kind of realistic counterpart to that device that I don't know about? If not I wish they had spent a weekend thinking up a better device than that. How about the EMP bomb in the first movie? Do devices like that exist on that scale?

Even if not the EMP bomb didn't bother me in the first movie, cause even if they don't exist in that capacity I could buy that one could probably be made in this day and age. But the holgraphic thing really got on my nerves. Hell, a replica of the egg would have worked just as well, cosidering how big the base for the hologram was.

http://www.holonorth.com/faq.htm They do exist, but they work differently than it was portrayed in the movie. Looks like you need more than just a base and a transvestite to make it work.

Any movie with a Miller's Crossing refrence is fine by me.

I had a big sloppy grin on my face during this entire movie. What a cool flick.

hmm, clicking that link i was expecting something different to the link you posted at the start of the thread.

I got to see this tonight and loved it. I think this movie was far closer to Soderbergh's filmmaking sensibilities than the original, hence, this is why the sequel is far more enjoyable. Nick was right, Brad Pitt jumping out the window is a priceless shot and a great way to kick things off, anytime the camera freeze frames on Pitt is great.

The whole cast pick up where they left off without missing a beat, their charm is infectious, it's a shame Bernie had to miss out on the cool stuff.

The ultimate in-joke was clever but adding Bruce to the mix just felt like they were taking the joke too far, it was the only thing I didn't like about the film. Vincent Cassel get's the best laser workout since Zeta-Jones in Entrapment but he's such a smooth bastard you have to love him for it. Props to Robbie Coltrane in a great cameo.

I'm getting that soundtrack, it's fucking beautiful and fit's the movie like a glove.

A caveat and a question--

Caveat: Apparently, the Cassell/laser song is not on the soundtrack. I'll still be buying it, though.

Question: What song was Linus quoting in the "Lost in Translation" bit? I recognize it, but couldn't place it.

Led Zeppelin's "Kashmir."

And yeah, I found out that the laser song was not after the soundtrack after I bought it. It's still a pretty good one though. Guess I'll just have to wait for the DVD.. or the "more music from Ocean's Twelve" CD that might be coming out in three months.

Question's

2 plot holey questions

1)Wouldn't the police be in full force once the egg was stolen off the train? I'm assuming Linus switched the real for a replica, but wouldn't the authorities figure it out sooner or later?

2)When the Nightfox is doing capeoria to avoid the lasers, he didn't have anything with him, so when he stole the (fake) egg, what he do to replace it? Because the next day, even though they failed, the Ocean crew was stealing something, and the authorities didn't seem to be freaking out, they seemed to be concentrating on the the (fake #2, I'd imagine) egg in the museum

of course, I like the movie, so I'm willing to let those go....kind of like in the first one....

speaking of the first one....

3)where exactly did Benedict think the robbers went after they were ambushed by SWAT? The money blew up, and as far as I know there was only one way out of the safe, which was back up the elevator.....so unless the robbers blew themselves up, where did he think they dissappeared to?

4) I'll give a sloppy wet kiss to someone who can direct me to a copy or the real thing of the nightfox's laser capeoria song....Gotan Project's "El Capitalismo Foraneo" I believe....I've tried all the legal (and illegal) ways, and I'm coming up short....

EDIT: I forgot to say, for those of you who also are looking for it, I found it on the US iTunes site, but not on the Canadian one........fuck......

The Laser Room song is called "Thé à la Menthe" by Nikkfurie, apparently a member of a French group named La Caution. Many have confused it with that GoTan song, but two different songs. The GoTan song is on the soundtrack, while the Laser Song isn't.

And I've only been able to find a 2:22 length of the Laser Song, and it does not sound like the complete thing.

It's very hard to track down.

Thank you! I did find it, and you're right.. the only versions I've found are right around 2:20 and very roughly cut.. which makes me wonder just what the source of the clip is. Did someone get it from the movie itself?

I've got a 2:44 version of it, with the dialog from the film. It's the longest version and is cut like the full song, not abruptly. I'll send it over AIM if anyone wants it. Also, I loved the movie too. It was so awesome.

From Nick:

Hmmm.......this movie was a huge letdown, and I do not consider myself to be "blind" to their efforts. I think the biggest problem with Ocean's Twelve is that it tries way too hard with the visual style and fails to deliver the goods in terms of the actual storyline and thievery.

*spoiler*
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umm...the big heist was switching a bag? And then engaging in a bunch of dumb side-plot moments for no apparent reason? And the master thief apparently constructed a replica faberge egg out of enamel and plaster he had glued to his body, since his contortions through the lazer maze didn't allow him to carry a bag with him? Why did the retired, super master-thief know how the real Egg was being shipped? Was it necessary to repeat the "they're being led out of jail in handcuffs" camera angle TWELVE TIMES!

The Zeta-Jones father subplot reminded me of the Star Wars prequels, where there is approximately 15 interconnected people in the entire galaxy.

There were some enjoyable moments, but as a whole it was just a mess. The film nerd in me got a kick out of the in-gags. In particular, I loved the "Academy Awards get old after a while" speech from Matt Damon (who has one) about Julia Roberts (who has one) to Bruce Willis (who does not). Unfortunately this wasn't a movie I went into with my brain locked into "film nerd" mode.

I'd give the movie as a whole a "D", although there were definitely some "A" moments.

Edit: After typing this up, I went reading reviews. This one pretty much sums up the way I feel.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...-2004Dec9.html

Nick, after reading your review, I could not help but notice that you heaped praise on the in-jokes, the casting aside of plot conventions, and the avoidance of cliche moments. However, I notice you are silent as to whether or not the plot is engrossing, the character's motivations made clear, concise, and believable, and the story told simply and elegantly without engaging in camerawork dramatics that do not advance the plot. I would argue that the merits you point out regarding Ocean's Twelve, while they are praiseworthy, are far less important than what is missing.

As I will undoubtedly never willingly see this movie again, I sat down and thought about it for a while. I was expecting to have to become more positive in my impression of the movie. Nope. Not only is it as bad as I initially thought it was, it's actually even worse.

I totally despise this flick. There are so many completely inane and irrelevant moments that I thankfully missed during my first viewing.

I sure hope you have more of the exact same thing to say after each positive post about the movie!

One wonders how, since he missed them, he knows they're there.

I thought it was . . . okay. It had a few good laughs, but it didn't have the essence of coolness the first did. It tried too hard to recreate that coolness, and it felt like it was trying too hard. I don't regret ponying up the $21.00, but I'm happy to leave it at that.

I'll come out and say that I didn't get this movie. I dont' get the heist, what they did or why they did all they did when they already had the egg. The Nightfox could've been told right after he stole the egg that he lost, that is if he didn't realize that he had a fake despite being a master art thief.

I didn't get most of the in jokes and I didn't get the style of movie making everyone is talking about here. I didn't get the plot like how the nightfox knew all their pertinent information, how he got through the laser field, why'd they allow themselves to go to jail, why Linus' mom had to come and bail them out and it seems as if he didn't know she was going to do it, but then why would they allow themselves to go to jail? Too much more here confused me and just got me frustrated. I'm stupid and this why artsy films like this don't usually get a good reception here, they think they can fuck with the stupid people like me and then be acclaimed. Hate that about them.

I'll give it a second chance though cause I'll probably pick up most the answers to my questions, but right now, I just want to fuckin hang soderberg.

I thought that the first half of the movie was a little slow for me. I feel like it lacked pizzazz and didn't keep me nearly as interested from the get go. The second half made up for it though, very cool and well paced.

...edited for spoilers...

From McG:

My post is a mirror image of Nick's post, and you're right: it added nothing new. I was hoping someone would pick up on it.


From The Bass:
Although I was being somewhat tongue in cheek, thinking back on the movie after you know the ending reveals countless inane and unexplained actions on the part of the characters. Imperator GAC did a good job talking about some of them.


More from The Bass:

I agree. The movie does not feel casual in the slightest. Everything from the camerwork, to the dialogue, to the character motivations feels artificial and forced.

I have to say that this is the only time I can remember being completely and utterly confused by a review of a movie I've found here on CHUD. Typically, even if I disagree, I can understand what Devin/Nick/whomever was getting at, and appreciate their view. This time, however, I am aghast and dumbfounded at a 9.5 rating for the steaming pile of horse excrement that is Ocean's 12.

At least Ocean's 12 has proven once and for all that Julia Roberts is not the least bit attractive absent movie star treatment. Now, if only she could be digitially replaced in Ocean's 11 with Catherine Zeta Jones . . .

I liked the movie well enough, but didn't think it topped the original. There was too much Catherine Zeta-Jones and too little of Ocean's Eleven. The heist didn't entertain me in the least.

Funny, that's how I feel about 11 in comparison now. The acting and dialogue feels a little forced, while the performances and writing in 12 seem relaxed, improvisational and confident.

Plus, I think it's got a lot more meat on it than the first one...it's just harder to notice right away. A lot of folks are complaining about the lack of actual "heists" in comparison to the first movie...but I think that's the point. Soderbergh isn't interested in the heists...they've been done before...they've been done by HIM before. Notice the emphasis on performance, rehersal, acting and acting techniques....and also, relationships between audience and entertainer...thief and victim, in this case. Basher, fittingly, comments on accents. Willis complains about everyone being wise to the ending of the Sixth Sense. The entire crew is being filmed by the Nightfox the whole time and are forced to put on an elaborate act. That's why the two real (one botched) heist is rushed (one time, literally so). The emphasis is not on crime or cons, it's on acting, directing and performance. In a way, I see this more as a (superior) sequel to Full Frontal than Oceans 11. Here's an e-mail I exchanged with a friend of mine, containing a lot of our thoughts on the film. It's long, so be warned...but honestly, I think some of it is valid.

1) The opening scene, when CZJ announces to Pitt that by tomorrow she'll know everything about the thief,
including his choice of personal hygiene products. Pitt launches himself out the window. Is this
Soderbergh commenting on nosy fans and papparazzi? Could be. How about when CZJ marches through the Dutch recluse's house, trying to figure out what went down? I've interpreted her in this scene as that
person watching THE SIXTH SENSE or any thriller/mystery, wanting to know all the angles, trying to figure out if and how she's been duped. Why is she the only one to expose Tess as a Julia
Roberts impersonator by noting that Roberts is left-handed? Because she's a fan! The final sequence
-- as the whole gang sits around gambling -- is crucial. Isabel is invited in to the group, and the
next series of images are of her being entertained (and probably conned, much like the audience). The final shot is of her falling off a chair, drunk and laughing. She stands to exit frame left and
Soderbergh freezes her in mid-cackle, then puts the image out of focus. And notice that when the face
blurs it ceases to be CZJ or Isabel -- this could be any number of people. Since the film's title appears
over a shot of Isabel, and ends with a shot of Isabel, I'm pretty sure that she (and, ultimately, the viewer)
is meant to be the "twelfth" person, sitting at the table with these movie stars and being entertained for
a few hours.

2) Though CZJ is obviously portraying Isabel for the entire film, she is also on one level representing the
audience and sometimes (but never at the same time) herself. What scenes am I thinking of when I say
this? The big one is when she goes in to interrogate Robbie Coltrane, and makes him spill his guts within a
minute based on something she whispers in his ear that we do not hear. Notice that this entire scene is
framed by a two-way mirror, and the cops watching the proceedings (who don't believe she can break the
suspect) become an audience. What are we supposed to think here? On a literal level we understand that the character, Isabel, is so tough and so smart that she can make a professional criminal burst into tears,
which is extraordinary considering that many others have not even gotten the needed information from this
man. But...how about the idea that CZJ can break him SIMPLY BECAUSE SHE IS CATHERINE ZETA-JONES, MOVIE STAR? After all, we've paid admission to see Catherine Zeta-Jones play a tough broad -- not the
faceless extra who is interrogating Coltrane moments before she arrives. What are we to make of the moment when Isabel nonchalantly applies lipstick during an otherwise tense confrontation with Rusty? In front of a mirror, no less, framing the actress once again as she poses for the camera. Notice also the way
Soderbergh films her kiss with Pitt -- he starts in a long shot from across the bedroom and then zooms in
for an extreme close-up. Perhaps too extreme. It's supposed to make you feel voyeuristic. But then
again, part of why some people go to such movies is to see if their favorite movie star knows how to plant a
smoocher. Soderbergh has even said on his OUT OF SIGHT commentary that when characters take their
clothes off and make love in movies, it draws attention away from the character and puts it on the
actor. Viewers say to themselves "Wow, those are so-and-so's tits, that's so-and-so's ass," etc. Six
years later and here he is making a similar comment in one of his other films.

One of the best I've ever seen - and I found Oceans 11 to be "okay". Can't explain why O12 is so good, it just is.

I finally got to see Ocean's 12 this weekend, and damn was it good. I just smiled and laughed the whole way through. A perfect homage/inspiration from films in the 60's (by the way, there were some American crime flicks in the 60's which had some of the same innvovations and concerns such as the original Thomas Crown Affair).

I would love to see some lists of the in-jokes. I know there had to be some I missed.

Definately.

I have to say, I have yet to hear someone I know personally complain about it or not like it. I have had a wide variety of friends who all said it was great, so the reaction on the boards surprised me.

Well, people on this board tend to cast a more critical eye on film's compared to those who watch movies as an everyday diversion.

I just find the boards usually go for a movie like this more than my friends here. That's why the reaction surprises me. I am used to my friends around here liking Shrek 2 or Crossroads (and I don't mean the Ralph Machio classic).

I loved it. I even went back to rewatch O11, but this one I still like better. It just seems that Steve and crew really took the reins with this one and did something that no one was expecting, and I loved it. Everybody probably expected a rehash of the first, but with a bigger and better caper, and that would have been easy, but what we got was much better.

The Master Thief knew the egg was on the train because he knows everything about what's going on in the world with this shit, he's the best there is. I dug Cassell, and he really took it hard to learn that after all the crap he went through, he was still bested by a simple bag switch, and I think that and the "betrayal" by his mentor really hurt his pride. It's good to see that he bounced back and followed his check, it might be cool to see his spinoff story of stealing his money back.

As said before, the score killed. Such perfect choices for what was going on onscreen, even the volume was timed right, loud when it needed to be.

Can't wait for the DVD now.

"Out of Sight" is one of my top ten films ever. It just is. I think I loved "Ocean's 11" more than just about anyone. But I really was astounded at how much I disliked this sequel.

First off, the original eleven are almost non-existent. The original film was great to me because every single gang member had their moment. Something memorable they did or said, and their interactions all worked. This time it seemed more important to say everyone was back than to actually use them. We get Bernie Mac sitting in jail for 80% of the movie and being completely pointless for the 20% he's in.

I can appreciate trying new things, but they pretty much ignore everything that made the original fun. Last time the gang tries an impossible heist, played it straight up, and won by their shear genius and precision. This time they make a deal to play a game that they lose when it comes to skill, but then miraculously win when it comes to being lazy and getting the solution handed to them by a peripheral character we don't care about.

The last time everyone involved talked about how they would be toast if it was just a big star-gazing film where everyone seems smug and self-involved. From the "George Clooney is 50!" non-joke, to the endless showbiz in-jokes, and finally to the unbelievably lame and interminably long Julia Roberts as Julia Roberts gag, they went the opposite direction this time. This is a film that is charming depending on how much "People Magazine" you read.

Yes, there were moments. Vincent Cassell deserves major praise. Topher Grace is funny again. At times we get a taste of the old banter and camaraderia. But more often than not is just improvised feeling noise. Famous people sitting around acting famous. The last one ends on a beautiful moment after they win in front of the fountain, this one is beautiful people having a party.

I'll agree to disagree with anyone who really loved this, but it didn't work for me at all.

Brilliant Stew, just brilliant.

Your point about the peripheral character dropping everything in their lap....during a two minute epilogue...hits the nail on the head.

The in-jokes and Julia Roberts gag were simply interminable (any reason why the Brad Pitt and Clooney characters aren't mistaken for Brad Pitt and George Clooney?) The ending of Ocean's 11 was rather poignant...the ending of Ocean's 12 is simply inane and tacked on.

This is simply a bad movie. I will agree to disagree with people who say that they like the movie, but I simply cannot accept as possibily valid the viewpoint that Ocean's 12 is not an atrocious trainwreck of a film.



Also: Freeze frames in movies pull you out of the action and are almost always insipidly pretentious, as is the case in this movie.

I tried to like this movie. I saw it twice. I was up in the air after the first viewing, felt like I missed something because Nick loved it so much. So I saw it again. Nope, I got everything. Still didn't like it. It felt like I was watching celebrities hang out and getting paid to do it. Everything I found intriguing was pulled out from underneath me. But not in a clever "gotcha" kind of way, or even a "it's more simple than you think" kind of way; just in a "we got bored and changed the plot during the shoot" kind of way.

It seemed to me the film was just another reason to bask in celebritydom. I was watching a party, but I wasn't invited. So what's the fun in that? The Stephen Hunter review from the Washington Post seemed pretty dead on. It's not a cop out calling this movie a convoluted mess if that's what it is. And it is just that.

I couldn't imagine what Nick is surmising concerning people who didn't like Ocean's Twelve. As I wouldn't know what to surmise from people who enjoyed it, maybe that they really like celebrities or something, I couldn't quite tell.

I'm a little late, but I saw this movie over vacation.

Great.

I loved Ocean's 11. I'll say that. I usually like smaller films with some privacy to them (borderline independent cult films, basically stuff that is unique). Ocean's 11 was a star vehicle that I knew Soderburgh needed to do so he could make his own films his own way.

Now comes 12. He made a huge film unique and intriguing. I felt like I was watching a huge art film. I knew some people were gonna be turned off by it, but heck it was different and didn't suffer from sequelitis. Did it beat the original? In my tastes yes.

I'm kinda the same way about Matrix 1 and Matrix 2 & 3 (combined as one film). Hmm I suck at writing without spoilers.