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Are We That Dumb?

post #1 of 26
12/14/04 at 1:05pm
Thread Starter 
Hey everyone

Ok, down to business. I know I am talking about remakes here but this thread is not about remakes like DotD or TCM and whither they are evil or whatever, no it's about the Japanese remakes and how the major film studios are treating us.

What I mean by this is that I'm wondering, don't people, especially American people, feel insulted each time a big studio remakes a Japanese movie because they think we the people won't understand the narrative structure or because the film has subtitles, thus we won't be interested or understand? Are we so dumb we must have all essence of the narrative structure sucked out and simplified beyond belief while at the same time have some actor that is young and "down with the teens" instead to entertain us?
Ok (deep breath), another thing, this rant is coming from a 17 year old so I apologise if you picture a old, over weight man who repeatedly say "Back in my day" all the time. I'm just sick and tired being treated like a moron by big film studios who own like every right to every film script and think I can't read subtitles and will be disappointed if I don't see nudity every five seconds.
I adore foreign films, when I want some horror I look to the Japanese/Asian market, when I want, for once, a interesting love story I look to the French market, some good action, the Asian market again. Why must I and everyone else have these great films (The Ring, The Grudge etc) remade for us moviegoers because the system thinks we are mindless dribbling dumb asses?

So, how do you feel about studios constantly remaking foreign films? Do you think the studios do it because they have nothing new to give or do you think that they think we, the public, are just too stupid to sit through a film that has unknown actors and subtitles in it?

Rauri
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post #2 of 26
12/14/04 at 1:19pm
Well, the average american is too lazy or just does not care about films that are filmed overseas. Hell, I'm sure half of the people that saw the RING in theathers did not know it was a Japanese remake.
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post #3 of 26
12/14/04 at 1:47pm
What angers me most is that the studios are making money by watering down other more creative people's ideas. There seems to very little, if any creative spark in the Hollywood machine these days. I refuse to believe that there aren't viable scripts by independent writers out there floating around begging to be made instead of all these constant remakes. The truth is that rather than take a chance on something unproven, the studios will finance something that already has name recognition of some kind. They are fully aware that film buffs are into the foriegn markets and that most Asian horror movies usually already have some kind of following in the states. And yes... inevitably they do dumb it down for the American culture and cast the flavor-of-the-week teenage pop star to attract a young crowd because that's the only demographic that they care about. It is all very infuriating but that's what the industry has degenerated into. I long for the good old days when studios were still brave and would actually take chances instead of following a formula.

Quote:
Originally posted by Peter Venkman:

Well, the average american is too lazy or just does not care about films that are filmed overseas. Hell, I'm sure half of the people that saw the RING in theathers did not know it was a Japanese remake.
This isn't always necessarily because of laziness but because of poor distribution. Import films are really hard to find in some areas of the country. I live in Tucson, Az and it is utterly devoid of any movie rental outlets with good import horror selections. I knew that The Ring was a remake before I saw it but was unable to find any copies at my local video store. Given the opportunity I'd love to check out more foreign horror films but sadly they are few and far between where I live.
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post #4 of 26
12/14/04 at 2:09pm
I think the sad thing we have to realize is that we aren't ever going to be Hollywoods target demographic.

They don't make movies to appeal to the genre film geeks who know and love many movies no one else has ever heard of, they make movies for giggly teenagers to watch on dates, or for bored middle aged people to use as a distraction from their lives.

I mean, look at how much money that piece of shit 'The Grudge' made. It drew in giant crowds of people who wanted to see something with some cool special effects and a few jump scares. Would 'Juon' have been even half as succesful if it had been released in North America? Most people would be turned off by the fact that it is a foreign film and they have to take the effort to read subtitles.

Hollywood understands how to draw large audiences and make a lot of money, and until we become the majority we are just going to have to suffer with dumbed down remakes of good movies.
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post #5 of 26
12/14/04 at 3:38pm
I have to bring up The Magnificient Seven here. A frame by frame remake of The Seven Samurai and say they don't always turn out so bad. The Ring remake was much better than the practically incoherent original I felt although I think it's one movie that is way overrated. The Grudge was a bad movie and I have yet to watch Ju-On to see how they compare. How many people do you know personally that are into foriegn films. Not too many I'd imagine. I don't think it's laziness or idiocy or anything like that that keeps some people away it's just not their thing. Foriegn films normally won't turn enough of a profit for the big studios to release them theatrically in the States so why bother. It is a business.

The bottom line for me is I don't think there are many foriegn horror films that live up to the hype they get. There are a few good ones but the majority suck as bad as any B or Z grade horror flick that comes out in the US.
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post #6 of 26
12/14/04 at 6:01pm
We are not that dumb. And the general movie viewing public is not dumb, just ignorant. Ignorant to the fact that with a little effort and thought, they could be watching movies that are not only great, but more than just a spectacle, which is what most Hollywood movies are these days. The marketing departments try explain everything in the trailers, so that the ignorant will have an idea what the movie is about, rather than look to see who wrote it or who directed it.

Think about it. When a new movie comes out, what do you need to know about it to go see it? Do you look at director, writer, actors, maybe even who does the music?? That's what we do. The general public only know's that the movie is "produced by the director of The Fast and the Furious," or has to be told the entire story, twists and all, in a trailer. That is why these movies like The Grudge do well. The target demo of 17-29 year old males determines the success of these films. It's the films that pull in the other demographics also that become hugely successful.

We value our movie going experience, and at times demand more than what is being given to us. It's been like that for a long time, and what you're (Rauri) describing is not new. It's not being elitist, in my opinion, it's that we have a wider range of movie experience, so we see what is happening. The general public doesn't really care about anything other than seeing a good movie on Friday night.
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post #7 of 26
12/15/04 at 4:33am
A remake gets people talking and the best possible dvd comes out. Look at Dawn of the Dead 70's We waited for years to get the 4 disk set and When Dotd 04 hit and hit big we got it. Also they import the original version for us geeks. Blockbuster of all places has been getting more asian films thanks to people talking about them
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post #8 of 26
12/15/04 at 4:37am
Every movie made today, horror or otherwise, is either a remake, a sequel or based on a comic book or novel.

That's Hollywood telling it's audience that they aren't advanced enough for original concepts.

I say fuck that. Fuck it hard.

But then again, tis a losing battle.
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post #9 of 26
12/15/04 at 8:58am
Thread Starter 

Yeah

Yeah I see what your all saying and I do agree that thanks to the success of DotD 04 we got the amazing box set and now Land of the Dead!!! So yeah it's all good I guess on that front but still, at least advertise the original at the cinema before you show the remake so that people know it's a remake and that they can also see the original. I think the studios should at least do that, show the viewer that there is a original and that if you want, you can get hold of it. Especially if some people didn’t know the Italian Job was a remake!!!
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post #10 of 26
12/15/04 at 10:30am
I eagerley await the Japanese remake of Van Helsing.
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post #11 of 26
12/15/04 at 11:52am
The Dawn Of The Dead box set was coming before there was going to be a remake. As for Land of the Dead, maybe we do owe a bit of thanks to the remake.

One thing new that is happening with the Japanese remakes is many of the originals are becoming widely released on DVD.

Hollywood has been remaking movies as long as there have been movies. It is nothing new.
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post #12 of 26
12/15/04 at 12:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by birdie
I eagerley await the Japanese remake of Van Helsing.
Such a film would induce multiple orgasms in Countess Anna.
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post #13 of 26
12/15/04 at 1:13pm
There are some cultural differences that make direct distribution of foreign films problematic, which is why I actually like some of the American remakes of foreign films. Often there is a core story that is interesting, but because of a gap between the Western culture and the Eastern one it might not be as palatable to a Western audience in its original format.

For instance, the Ringu story is a good ghost story. However, as the story progresses in the original Japanese format (I'm talking about the trilogy of novels here, not just the first film) it becomes less appealing to a typical Western audience. Since our culture doesn't have the same mythology, it creates more of a leap for an audience to invest in the story. For instance, in the Japanese originals there is a connection between Sadako (Samara in the American remake) and a water spirit. Since our mythology doesn't really incorporate such concepts, it would make it harder for a Western audience to be immersed in the story (unless you approached it from a more "fairy tale" perspective). If, however, you took the same basic story and made some changes (the water spirit becomes the devil or something equally identifiable from a Western perspective), then an audience has less trouble suspending disbelief.

I think the originals can still be appreciated, particularly for the way they are filmed and conceived, but the stories themselves are harder for a Western audience to identify with because we have a different world view.
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post #14 of 26
12/15/04 at 2:35pm
I don't think they need to be remade, maybe if they were made in the '60's-'80's and no one's heard of it.

vearing off topic momentarly I still haven't seen the Grudge, mentioned it yesterday and some kid just started going on about why it's great cause it's scary and PG or something, horror can be gruesome and still be great, not as a horror movie, but as a overall movie [Carpenters The THING].
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post #15 of 26
12/15/04 at 2:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MackDaKnife

For instance, the Ringu story is a good ghost story. However, as the story progresses in the original Japanese format (I'm talking about the trilogy of novels here, not just the first film) it becomes less appealing to a typical Western audience. Since our culture doesn't have the same mythology, it creates more of a leap for an audience to invest in the story. For instance, in the Japanese originals there is a connection between Sadako (Samara in the American remake) and a water spirit. Since our mythology doesn't really incorporate such concepts, it would make it harder for a Western audience to be immersed in the story (unless you approached it from a more "fairy tale" perspective). If, however, you took the same basic story and made some changes (the water spirit becomes the devil or something equally identifiable from a Western perspective), then an audience has less trouble suspending disbelief.
That's cool and everything, but I would rather prefer to see the original because it gives a doubling effect. It provides a cultural as well as entertaining experience. Whereas a western remake only provides an entertaining experience. The original is far greater and offers far more to a Western audience.

These remakes of foreign films belittle us as an audience.
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post #16 of 26
12/15/04 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth_Chocula
vearing off topic momentarly I still haven't seen the Grudge, mentioned it yesterday and some kid just started going on about why it's great cause it's scary and PG or something, horror can be gruesome and still be great, not as a horror movie, but as a overall movie [Carpenters The THING].
You should have told that kid that Jaws was rated PG.
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post #17 of 26
12/15/04 at 3:53pm
To my mind it is the cultural differences in Asian horror that makes it so compelling. I couldn't be more bored with the western/hollywood aproach to storytelling. There's just nothing new to say. Western narrative is so hung up on the beginning/middle/end structure that most movies have been straightjacketed into such formulaic blueprints that you can predict the entire movie in 10 minutes.

The frequent ambiguity of Asian movies certainly isn't for everyone, but I find it is frequently thought provoking (in an enjoyable way) and allows freedom of interpretation that isn't possible in hollywood, where everything has to be rigidly spelled out for you, with multiple endings, just to make sure you get the point.

With regards to the Ringu movies, I think they really just regressed in quality after the first movie, rather than being victims of cultural difficulties. The original Ring 2 (also known as Rasen), was rejected due to it's relative crappiness, and the second attempt, which became Ring 2, was not a great improvement.

Ring 0 is someone else's interpretation of the story, and doesn't really mesh with the other movies at all.

I liked the American Ring. Everyone in Asia (including the Koreans) seem to have had a shot at it, so why not the US? I don't really see Ring as much of a holy property.

I'm less enthusiastic about the Gellar Grudge or the upcoming Dark Water. The originals weren't the greatest examples of the genre in the first place.

Now, if they tried to remake Uzumaki or Naked Blood, that might be interesting...
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post #18 of 26
12/15/04 at 6:38pm
I also find the differences in culture compelling, but I'm sure many people feel that such differences are a barrier to enjoying or identifying with a film (or any sort of artwork, really). It's almost the difference between appreciating something and liking it. It's harder to connect emotionally to a film when the differences in culture are so great that there isn't enough common ground to identify with it.

My point is that if there is a good story whose quality is independent of the culture of the nation it came from, I see no problem in adapting that story using themes more familiar to the new intended audience. It doesn't destroy the original source of the material.

I don't think film studios necessarily view the American public as illiterate idiots. Rather I think they see foreign films as being poor performers at the box office. Why release an original work and make very little money when you can remake the film with an American cast and rake in big box office returns?
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post #19 of 26
12/15/04 at 11:29pm
Which all begs the question as to why Hollywood can't come up with something original of it's own. My problem with americanising foreign films is that in so doing, they remove the elements that made that film special in the first place.

For every Ring or Isomnia, there's a Get Carter or Assassin.

I wish there were more cases of 'inspired by' rather than just theft. The guy who made Versus & Azumi is clearly inspired by Raimi and Hollywood slick, but he didn't just remake Evil Dead and Kill Bill, he brought something of his own to the party.

I just hate how hollywood thinks. Why create when you can buy.
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post #20 of 26
12/16/04 at 10:55am
Hey, you're talking about two Stallone classics there.

My opinion, a lot of Americans just don't give a shit about movies unless they go "BOOM!" or give the cheap scare nowadays. A lot (not all) of people want the easy visual that allows them to comprehend what the hell is going on while doing that least thinking possible. Christ, geeks like us can not only talk about certain movies for days, we even go online to talk about it with people we don't even know. How many of us really have anything close to resembling a large circle of friends that will do that?

I know I don't. Most of my friends will be like, "Oh yeah, suchandsuch movie was fucking awesome!" Then I'll ask about a scene and they'll say, "Yeah, it was fucking awesome!". That's it. Yeesh. I want to discuss it, talk about what made it great, not just that it's great.

And Bollywood realizes this, and capitializes on it. Every great business does, and if Hollywood is good at anything, it's putting dinero in a certain select group of pockets. They are the ultimate copycat experts. One group goes on a somewhat shaky limb (face it, if Ring had bombed how much talk of Japanese remakes would we really see?), it's successful, and then bam!, everyone and their mother is doing it. Pretty much all in the sake of the almighty dollar.

The Grudge may have been shit (haven't seen it, Juon was great and I'll wait for the video, danks), but it made money, and a helluva lot of it. Proving that remakes are still a very valuable commodity, especially the Japanese ones.

I know a couple of people who didn't know that DotD was a remake. Sigh.
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post #21 of 26
12/16/04 at 7:06pm
After I had told my tasteless brother a half dozen times that City of God was a great movie, and after he declined watching it because he doesn't like "subtitled bullshit", he finally asked me for it after a friend of his talked it up with similar excitement.
That may say more about my relationship with my brother, than his individual taste in films (which is fucking horrible), but mainstream Americans are indeed, content to eat the same shit, until their programmers see fit to change the feedbag.
I do hate being a cynic, and my brother did end up loving City of God (though he took forever to return it), but I do see the "slave mentality" as a kind of truth in our culture.

One more thing. If it isn't about Jesus, then Americans are not about to fork over their cash for a film in another language, especially if the faces w/in said film, are anything but white.
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post #22 of 26
12/16/04 at 9:45pm
Don't you people have anything better to do than to complain about studios making movies that you do not want to see. I am an openminded horror fan, I like the well made horror movies like The Shinning and I like cheeey low budget horror movies like I Drink Your Blood. Any time a horror movie gets a theatrical release, I look at as a good thing. Some hit, Dawn of the Dead, and some miss, House of the Dead, but I could give a rats ass. I'm sure that there are people who liked House of the Dead and I don't hold that against them. The way I see it when it comes to horror movies on the big screen, the morre the merrier.
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post #23 of 26
12/16/04 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Gut
I'm sure that there are people who liked House of the Dead and I don't hold that against them. merrier.
I assure you sir, this is not true.
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post #24 of 26
12/17/04 at 6:21am
The more crap horror movies are churned out, the more difficult it is to get decent stuff funded. I'm not talking about low budget indie movies (the more the merrier) but utter shitfests like Gothika, that just make the genre look bad. Uwe Boll and Paul Anderson make the genre look bad. Unfortunately, these people are making hollywood horror movies. Go figure.
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post #25 of 26
12/20/04 at 3:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny
One more thing. If it isn't about Jesus, then Americans are not about to fork over their cash for a film in another language, especially if the faces w/in said film, are anything but white.
That's interesting. How do you think 'The Passion' would have been recieved in America if Jesus had been black? Or arabic?
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post #26 of 26
12/20/04 at 12:22pm
Thread Starter 

I Would

Like I said before I would like it if they, before showing the movie, would advertise that you can get the original on DVD etc, then at least people would know it is a remake etc. My friends only knew DotD was a remake because I had talked about the original so much. And they only knew The Grudge was a remake because I bought the original on DVD and told them about it. It seems all their movie knowledge comes from me and not from what information is released from the studio's (like reviews on The Grudge didn't even meantion it was a remake for example)

All I'm saying about this now is that I just want people to be aware there is a original version and the studio could do this by advirtising it before people see the main movie when sitting in the movie house etc.

Rauri
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