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THE AVIATOR discussion (no spoilers)

post #1 of 36
Thread Starter 
The scenes where Hughes is locked in his screening room were something right out of a Cronenberg film (not to mention Howard Shore's music)... I got vibes from Dead Ringers.

DAMN I loved this movie. Just stunning. Scorsese hasn't been this good since.... well, probably Goodfellas. I'm going again today.
post #2 of 36
There's some really interesting tidbits about how Scorsese utilized digital technology and other special effects to create many of the film's scenes, including the manipulation of the film to make it look as if it had been shot in the style two or three-strip Technicolor process.

See the area of the site labeled THE PRODUCTION for the goodies:
http://theaviatormovie.com/
post #3 of 36
That website is a little too interesting and a little too in-depth for someone who hasn't seen it yet. I'm forcing myself to wait until after christmas to read through all the Production details.
post #4 of 36
post #5 of 36
Come in with the milk
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Come in with the milk
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Come in with the milk
Come in with the milk
Come in with the milk
Come in with the milk
Come in with the milk

Better than Gangs of New York, hope Scorsese breaks his cold streak and finally wins an Oscar for best Director, the man deserves it.
post #6 of 36
Amazing, loved the use of the classic Warners logo at the start, just like Down with Love.

The look of the film was aces, this is going to get a nod for Cinematography, god damn Dicaprio was at the top of his game, as was the cast and crew.
post #7 of 36
Well I just got back from seeing this and of course I liked it. The acting from all involved was top notch and Howard Hughes is just one of the most interesting people ever profiled in a biopic. However I may not be quite as infatuated as some here are. I found it at times to be paced unevenly and felt it could have trimmed a few minutes off certain scenes to make more room for the Ava Gardner sublot. Much like Ratty I felt that the Hughes/Ava Gardner romance deserved more screen time. I admit partially because I think Kate is a hottie and also because I think it could really have proven some of her detracors wrong about her acting talent if given a more meaty role.(And I may be wrong here...but I was under the impression that Hughes was involved with her off on and just as long if not longer than he was with Hepburn.) As it is she did a fantastic job with a limited role. Also John C. Reily needed more scren time as well. However all in all these are fairly minor complaints. Overall I give an 8/10. I actually look forward to a director's cut should there ever be one.

P.S I reposted this here from the original post in the main forum just because I am not sure where to really put it.
post #8 of 36
So this is Scorcese's attempt at Kane.

It's a great film. I can't tell if it is or is not a Great Film. If there's any justice there will be nominations all around, particularly for Director, Best Picture, and yes a nomination for Pretty Boy Leo.

For God's sake give Cate Blanchett some hardware. She's past due.
post #9 of 36
When I first came out of this, I liked it, but was bothered by the severe underwritten Ava Gardner storyline, Hughes magically pulling himself together for the hearings and maiden flight, and Alan Alda not making much of a villain. The more I thought about it, however, Senator Brewster wasn't much of an adversary, Ava Gardner's arc could never compare to Katherine Hepburn's, and the haunting ending scene kind of made up for the overly convenient comeback Hughes makes.

All in all, it's a damn good film.
post #10 of 36
Best film of the year for me.
post #11 of 36
As good as The Aviatorwas Collateral is by FAR the greatest film of the year. Fuck the naysers and the Oscars. Any body who says that it was "just a great thriller" is out of their minds.
post #12 of 36
"Way of the future."
post #13 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by chappers
As good as The Aviatorwas Collateral is by FAR the greatest film of the year. Fuck the naysers and the Oscars. Any body who says that it was "just a great thriller" is out of their minds.
I saw Collateral three times at the theatre. Paid 10 dollar prices for it three times.

Aviator is my favorite film of the year.
post #14 of 36
Thread Starter 
Collteral is very good. The Aviator is stupendous.
post #15 of 36
Sorry I was feeling a little ornery there. I really did like The Aviator quite a lot. Just another great Marty movie but it just bugs the shit out of me that Collateral was so good and is IMO the best film of the year and is showing up on all of these ten best lists and what not and won't see any award love due to the fact that many will say it was just a great thriller/action picture. Just rubs me the wrong way, but what are you gonna do?
post #16 of 36
Collateral wasn't even a great thriller. It was quite a good thriller.
post #17 of 36
Collateral is grossly overrated
post #18 of 36
Damn but Cate Blanchett knocked another one out of the park. That was seriously great acting she did playing someone so well known. I believed.

Leo deserves a nomination as well. He had it from the get go and just got better and better as the movie went along. Wave of the future, indeed.
post #19 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Robinson
...and the haunting ending scene kind of made up for the overly convenient comeback Hughes makes.
Yes, "haunting" is definately the right word for the ending. I can't help but suspect that it wasn't in the original script--John Logan's more the kind of glossy, Akiva Golsdman-ish Hollywood polish guy who would paper over the cracks in someone's life, whereas Marty isn't the kind of guy to back away from the truth if it's not pretty. Also, did it seem to anyone else that the scene where Ava Gardner cleans him up for the hearings was written for Hepburn, and Scorsese changed it to Gardner for some reason? Presumably historical accuracy?

Anyway, in composing my thoughts on this film, I realized it felt like Scorsese's pessimistic comment on where America is headed. Sort of like what Philip Kaufman said his goals for The Right Stuff were. A portrait of an America that used to be great, but seems to be declining. Hughes is the American entrepeneurial spirit, having totally decayed and being shut up in a box by the end of the movie. He's still dreaming about "The Way of the Future" even as it goes on without him.

And on a totally inane note, was that footage of the real Jane Russell used in the projection room sequences? Because she's the spittin' image of Salma Hayek...
post #20 of 36
Question: Did Scorsese have final cut on this?

Something really weird is irking me, although, and that's the classification for this movie. Usually I don't care if a movie is over or under-rated, but for some reason, this one did. In no way is "The Aviator" PG-13. Absolutely no way.

Also, I hardly find this movie as being "Scorsese's most accessible and entertaining" as a few journalists over at RottenTomatoes.com have stated. They could not be farther from the truth.

There is some bizarre shit in this movie - bizarre cinematography, bizarre music placement (What the hell was with that one dark-sounding cue Shore wrote? Absolutely genious, but still just plain WEIRD), bizarre editing... it's like some goddamn trippy art film. Like that one frame with the piss bottles and the flashing red lights. What the FUCK. Honestly, I think this movie is way "artier" than any of his past works.

Anyways, good picture, though. Give Leo and Scorsese the Oscar, although I still think Ocean's Twelve is the best movie of the year.
post #21 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micah Robinson
When I first came out of this, I liked it, but was bothered by the severe underwritten Ava Gardner storyline, Hughes magically pulling himself together for the hearings and maiden flight, and Alan Alda not making much of a villain. The more I thought about it, however, Senator Brewster wasn't much of an adversary, Ava Gardner's arc could never compare to Katherine Hepburn's, and the haunting ending scene kind of made up for the overly convenient comeback Hughes makes.
I was a little bugged at how easily he rose to the occasion at the hearing as well. But then I thought about it and I think it makes sense. Throughout the whole movie, whenever Hughes was backed into a corner he came out fighting like a lion (the scene at the Hepburn estate is a prime example of this---the audience applauded when he finally told them to shove their old money up their old asses).

I thought there was just enough of Ava Gardner. We didn't have enough of an introduction to her to make me want to see a fitting conclusion. Like you said, Hepburn's arc is more important. What's amazing is how great Beckinsale is in just her few scenes. I loved her line, "Nothing's clean Howard...we just do our best, right?"

As for Brewster...I thought he was a solid villain. He just underestimated Hughes...he saw the weirdness, the eccentricities and thought he could use that to his advantage. His best line? "We just beat Germany and Japan. Who the hell are you?"

I don't think people are giving enough credit to John Logan, and to say that the "darker stuff" probably wasn't in his script is ridiculous. Nobody would just skip over Hughe's eccentricies, that's part of his appeal! It's a beautifully put together screenplay that should be studied in the future...

Just a great, great, great movie. I loved every second of it. And yes, that last shot is hauntingly memorable. I'm still thinking about it now.
post #22 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Prankster
And on a totally inane note, was that footage of the real Jane Russell used in the projection room sequences? Because she's the spittin' image of Salma Hayek...
It wouldn't surprise me if it was Salma, because I'm pretty damn sure that was Adam Arkin as Spencer Tracey.
post #23 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by chappers
As good as The Aviatorwas Collateral is by FAR the greatest film of the year.
Agreed on that. Collateral is easily my #1; however The Aviator came in at #3 right behind The Incredilbes. The Aviator is still an outstanding achievement, and I wouldn't cry if it one best picture this year, or be surprised.

On a separate note, I didn't know that Michael Mann produced this movie! Should have known that his fingers were somewhere in the mix

EDIT: Another surprise for me was that the same man who wrote Star Trek friggin Nemesis wrote this masterpiece... weird.
post #24 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rath/Brendan
It wouldn't surprise me if it was Salma, because I'm pretty damn sure that was Adam Arkin as Spencer Tracey.
Pretty sure they were Jane Russell's tits as themselves. And Tracy Kinda looked like Arkin, but the actor's name is Kevin O'Rourke, a TV vetran.

By the way, the guy they got for Cary Grant (I was impressed with his likeness) is Michael-John Wolfe, who played the hotel clerk in the beginning of...Collateral. Hmm....
post #25 of 36
Might as well paste these thoughts from the pre-release thread. (This is my #3 film of the year)

Quote:
Okay, first things first.

Scorsese will win Best Director.

This film may not be his best work, but it most definitely displays everything that makes him great. The first hour and half alone is a 'firing on all cylinders ' thundering showcase of his patented super charged narrative flow. It truly is a euphoric rush experiencing "old Hollywood" through the Scorsese prism. His editing rhythms, camera moves and distinct mise-en-scene are effortless exuberance - nobody does it better. And when you add exhilarating flying sequences, and an always fascinating Kate Hepburn/love story, this particular chunk of the flick seems worth the price of admission alone. (BTW, Cate Blanchett is amazing. While at first she shocks you with her acute mannerisms, by her exit, it feels like an act of alchemy. The spirit of Hepburn revived from the dead. Reminded me of Hopkins/Nixon)

By the middle of the picture, I LOVED Leo's Howard Hughes. He already felt like a classic cinematic character at this point, and his increasingly larger-than-life obsession with aviation kept the narrative afloat through the darker episodes of his life. Obsessive compulsive disorder is a motherfucker, and the film puts you right in Leo's head as he tries to keep it together. It's a shock to the system whenever Scorsese stops his rapid fire pace cold, placing Hughes in claustrophobic rooms to enact his ever accelerating disease. There are moments in these sequences so soulful, dark and commanding, that it felt like it's taken Leo 10 years to reach this potential (All the way back to that "locked out of his mother's apartment" scene in Basketball Diaries).

I think the reason so many folks are going to be stunned by Dicaprio's acting here is because there is such a wide diversity of phases to both his character and screen presence. And when he stands toe to toe, and even dominates tons of amazing thespians to boot, it definitely makes you consider him a heavyweight. So while what ultimately stayed with me at the end of the film was the scope of Scorsese's narrative, Leonardo's epic performance is at least 70 percent of why he got there. He rocked.


Some stuff I loved...


-Errol Flynn sequence (The whole thing)

-Baldwin's use of "Fuck".

-Alan Alda - Scorsese was right to cast such a likable and charismatic screen presence in this antagonist role.

-Howard Shore's score - Give this man another Oscar!

-Hepburn family scene.

-Ian Holm in the ratings board sequence.

-That motherfucking EPIC crash.

-When Hughes identifies himself as an Aviator in it's aftermath.

-The fact that Scorsese made Kate Beckinsale come off as a good actor/screen presence.

-The fact that for first time, I thought Kate was HOT.

-Alec Baldwin's scene outside Hughes room (when he wouldn't come out)

-The congressional hearing.

-The cinematography of Robert Richardson - Scorsese and him have cemented themselves as GREAT partners.

-Kelli Garner's cleavage.

-Odie!
Quote:
Y'know, Dicaprio has methodically submerged his formidable star wattage since Titanic. The success of that film probably scared the crap out of him, and he shunned any roles which would give a whiff of this quality. "Catch me If You Can" was close, but no cigar. The point of that portrayal was Abagnale was not a singular personality. He was basically a blank state. And when you get right down to it, while his impersonations had their charm, there was no larger-than-life charisma on display there.


"The Aviator" is the return of Dicaprio's movie star charm, and I think it's going to play like gangbusters with mainstream audiences. Of course, unlike Jack Dawson, Howard Hughes has a dark side. But even throughout these shadowy and downer episodes that take up a good part of the second half of the picture, the larger-than-life positivism shines through - allowing Hughes to remain an intoxicating figure throughout. So while Scorsese complicates a big factor why Cameron became the "king of the world", the point is Leo hasn't used these chops since. Until now.

I think this film is going to do very well.

Quote:
Holds up on repeat viewing. The flying sequences are like a drug. I got a euphoric buzz whenever one of these sequences came up. The editing, music, shot composition, choreography......just masterful.


And I now more than ever believe Scorsese has organically tied the OCD with Hughes' characterization in the narrative. There's an obsessive overlap to everything he did, whether that be women, cinema or aviation. Think of that scene where he's planning out the plane designs and the sexual quotient of "The Outlaw" at the same time. Then later, during that "Show me all the blueprints"scene with Odie, it can intuitively be percieved as a natural extension of his Aviation obsessions. The transition just feels 'logical'. But while he was obsessive, extreme and radical about all his endeavors, the film wisely doesn't conclude whether it actually came from the OCD, or whether the OCD was merely exasperated by such an extreme aspect of his personality. But that's the way it should be. Leave that mystery about this dynamic figure and his disease intact.

About Beckinsale.....

I was one of her naysayers. In her first appearance in the film, I feared her Van Helsing accent.

But she comes off as a soothing - even motherly - presence whenever she appears on screen. And while she's not as beautiful as the real Ava Gardner, she's pretty frickin' hot in this flick.
post #26 of 36
Finally saw it tonight...I still need to see SIDEWAYS and MILLION DOLLAR BABY but Scorsese is sitting in the top spot for the year right now. It's just a phenomenal film. DiCaprio and Blanchett are both oscar-worthy and Marty definitely deserves the brass as well. How have I never really heard of Howard Hughes before? What an incredible story.
post #27 of 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Gistmeister
Finally saw it tonight...I still need to see SIDEWAYS and MILLION DOLLAR BABY but Scorsese is sitting in the top spot for the year right now. It's just a phenomenal film. DiCaprio and Blanchett are both oscar-worthy and Marty definitely deserves the brass as well. How have I never really heard of Howard Hughes before? What an incredible story.
I bet Clint gets your vote once you see that one. Hell, Sideways might even take the top. All three are incredible films on three different levels. Depends on what kind of spectacle you are really wanting to see this year.
post #28 of 36
Loved the film. You could do a lot worse than riff on CITIZEN KANE. Can't decide what my favorite of the year is (I'm leaning towards SIDEWAYS) but either way this is a terrific achievement in filmmaking.
post #29 of 36
Unlike KANE, however, this film didn't have me entertaining sleep on several occassions. Arguing against KANE's brilliance is futile, but I think the film is pretty ponderous...THE AVIATOR seemed completely free of any similar encumbrance. Making a three-hour, detailed biopic seem breezy, even when it's about a guy as batshit crazy as Hughes, is a Herculean accomplishment.

Other than DiCaprio's incredible performance, the other thing I can't get over is the incredible array of aerial shots. The photography and subtle effects were so fresh and exhilarating that it seemed as if I'd never seen airplanes onscreen before in my entire life. The Hell's Angels sequence where Hughes is filming in the air might be the best thing I've seen all year. Breathtaking.
post #30 of 36
"EDIT: Another surprise for me was that the same man who wrote Star Trek friggin Nemesis wrote this masterpiece... weird."
Not really, when you understand that in a lot of cases, the guy who gets the credit for the screenplay is not the guy who does the endless rewrites. It's infamous in Hollywood that scripts get so many fingerprints on them that it's impossible to tell who did the final draft. Whether this means that the Star Trek Nemesis had a original good script that got fucked up in rewrites, or "The Aviator" was a weak script that was saved by rewrites is one of those things we might never know.
"The Aviator" was a great film, though. I think that Scorsese will be shaking Peter Jackson's hand come Oscar time. Clint already has his and he has a good shot at Best Actor. Or you can have a split decison with Scorsese winning the Oscar and "Baby" taking best picture."Sideways"is a great film and will get nominated but I don't think it;s going to win, based on the kind of films that the Academy likes. Both "Aviator" and "Baby" fit that profile much better then "Sideways".
post #31 of 36
Quote:
Yes, "haunting" is definately the right word for the ending. I can't help but suspect that it wasn't in the original script--John Logan's more the kind of glossy, Akiva Golsdman-ish Hollywood polish guy who would paper over the cracks in someone's life, whereas Marty isn't the kind of guy to back away from the truth if it's not pretty. Also, did it seem to anyone else that the scene where Ava Gardner cleans him up for the hearings was written for Hepburn, and Scorsese changed it to Gardner for some reason? Presumably historical accuracy?
The script draft I read was dated November 02, was credited to Logan, and had that exact ending. In fact, 11/02 draft was very similar to the final cut that made it into theatres... off the top of my head I can't recall any major changes, just some dialogue polishing.

The draft read worse than the film, though... it came across as a bunch of scenes that didn't necessary flow that well or build towards huge moments (the first third and the Senate hearings aside). For me, this film is a prime example of how Scorsese and his talented actors and production team were able to streamline and polish the film past the script problems -- which are still there in the final film, but reduced a great deal due to some excellent editing, music, and of course some scenes play better than they read due to the superb acting.
post #32 of 36
I couldn't find anything wrong with The Aviator. I loved it. Eternal Sunshine is still my favorite right now, still have Sideways, Million Dollar Baby, Closer, Ray, Motorcycle Diaries, and Kinsey to go.

Leo could very well win Best Actor for this one. His grimaces and recoiled manuerisms were perfectly effective to say the least. Supporting cast all top notch. Cate Blanchett shines of course. The variety of the color schemes wowed me the most. One of the most visually pleasing films I have seen since O Brother.

I am reluctant to say Marty's direction was better in this than Mann's was in Collateral, but it's hard to defend. The Aviator was clearly more to handle. Longer, heavier, larger cast, more complex themes, grander on every scale. I will still rank a handful of films above The Aviator on my list of favorites, but history, and most likely the Academy, will choose otherwise.

p/s Howard Shore is unstoppable right now.
post #33 of 36
Very good movie, but I didn't find it great. I disliked the Errol Flynn scene, to me it seemed like a cheap gimmick. I also thought it felt long. And this is from a guy who watches ROTK in one sitting and doesn't feel the same way. I think Leo, Baldwin and Blanchett all deserve Oscar noms, the acting was great. Cinematography and score were excellent.

8/10

Oh (and this didn't detract at all from my enjoyment of the film) the movie was about as historically accurate as Krull. Take 5 mins to read Hughes' biography and you will be amazed at the liberties taken for the film. Again, this doesn't detract from a very good movie but if you think you now "know" about Hughes life and times you are grossly mistaken.
post #34 of 36
I feel the same, Aviator is a very good rather than great movie, and when I came out of there I wanted to learn more about Hughes' life to see what liberties they took in the film - the ending especially (the last scenes with Alan Alda, which felt very Hollywoodized). Also I'm a strong defender of Scorsese's 90s career, especially Kundun which I rate among his very best works, so I wouldn't say that Aviator is Marty's best since Goodfellas - it's his best since Gangs of New York for me, and that's pretty fucking good.

That said, what's good in Aviator is really good. The cinematography, the acting, the camera moves... as always Scorsese is in a league of his own there. Shame that the script isn't very deep - more a collection of great moments than a great narrative. It's a very good biographical movie but it doesn't transcend the genre like Raging Bull did. That said, it's still one of the very best movies of last year.
post #35 of 36
Liked it, but found it inferior to the flawed Gangs of New York (not saying it sucked, just saying that if you gave me a choice of latter-day Scorcese epics, I'd take GoNY).

Don't know why it didn't hook into me - the story was certainly compelling enough, and I thought DiCaprio was fantastic - but I DO know that I thought Blanchett was at times doing a far too mannered version of Hepburn - sort of the old disease of capital A "Acting" - though the moments when the art shone through the artifice were stunning. Heck, even though I thought the golfing scene was amusing but a tad overdone, I laughed out loud at the look Hughes/DiCaprio gives - IIRC Hepburn asks "are you wooing me now?", says something else and walks away; Hughes just has this look of "what the fuck just hit me?" that is priceless. Also, much as I think Kate Beckinsale is damn near the loveliest woman in film today, her Ava Gardner just did NOT do it for me. It actually distracted me during most of her scenes. Not that she did a bad job, I just couldn't buy it for some reason.

Overall though, a terrific flick. The flying scenes were fantastic and I think I heard more laughter during The Aviator than any two comedies I've been to in the past few years. There were some parts that were just funny in the film - which I think any great flick sort of needs, to leaven the mood and make the peaks much sharper.

As far as Oscar faves go, I haven't seen Million Dollar Baby or Ray yet (probably won't see Finding Neverland before the ceremony - it just doesn't interest me for whatever reason), but The Aviator didn't surpass Sideways for me.
post #36 of 36
Saw it last night. An absolutely terrific movie. From the gothic opening to the final haunting image, Scorsese is clearly back on form after the disappointing GONY. I think it's clear Scorsese was just prepping DiCaprio for this movie because he delivers a bravura performance here, from the fearless cocky, ballsy young man from the opening to the clearly losing touch with reality, man later on. He just hits on all fronts. Cate Blanchett a performance that's more than just an imitation because Hepburn's voice is so distinct you can't really get around it but she brought to her life, the scene on the golf course almost felt like one of Hepburn's classic screwball comedies, loved that famous laugh Blanchett just threw in while walking around the course, she wasn't giving him a moment to breathe, Hughes just stood back and watched in awe.

I loved the little touches throughout the film that indicated where Hughes neuroses were heading, little pieces of dialogue and action. The Hells Angels sequence was flat out fucking stunning and the XF-11 crash was one of the best action sequences all year, just great stuff.

In the end though, it was Scorsese's show and he delivers an epic homage to golden era Hollywood and the pioneering spirit of HH.

Is it just me or did anyone get a weird Brad Pitt vibe in watching DiCaprio's descent into madness in the small room?
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