The Tide Changes in the Star Wars Community

Funny you should start this now, JM. I have a similar experience. Out of nowhere, I find myself more forgiving of the previous PT films. I still think they are a bit disappointing, and I see as many missed opportunities as I do great moments, but on the whole, I just want to be excited about Star Wars again. In the past two weeks, I've gotten really amped about ROTS. I admit, it's partially due to taking my last chance, and also due to nostalgic reminiscence of getting excited about TPM. But this time, we aren't beginning a new trilogy, but rather ending both trilogies. In short, I'm not going to defend or attack the films that came before it. I'm just excited about the film to come.

Take care,
Chuck

Sorry, I can't embrace a film as bad as TPM no matter how much I love the original trilogy
AOTC ,once you get past the horrible love scenes and too much cuteness in the first Hour (Mel's Diner on Coruscant...give me a freaking break) has a very good last half and for the first time in the prequels I felt I was in the Star Wars universe.
I refuse to cut a bad movie or book some slack just because it is part of a franchise. I prefer to judge movies on their individual merits. If being a true fan means I have to automtically love anything brough out by Lucas set in the Stars Wars universe count me out.
I agree that a lot of the attacks on Lucas have been over the top. They guy made a bad movie, not commit some major crime. The problem is the debate has been dominated by the extremists on both sides of the issue.

The funny thing is the way prequel-bashers had managed to distort things.

Right after TPM was released, I remember that the majority agreed that it was not as good as everyone hoped it would be and that the film suffered from an awkward first act but improved siginficantly once we reach Tattooine.

And right after Clones was released most people thought that it was a vast improvement over Episode I and that it was rather enjoyable.

Somehow, fanboys managed to turn this to "The Phantom Menace is the worst sequel ever" and "Attack of the Clones is even worse!"

I don't think it's about ignoring any personal peeves I have with the PT. As they stand alone, the issues I have with them remain. It's simply about not leting those specific issues color my excitement or expectations for ROTS, or for the story as a whole. And no one talked about being "true fan" one way or the other. I was still a fan of SW 2.5 years ago when I was discussing why I felt AOTC was the worst SW film to date. I was a fan when I recognized some of brilliant moments in AOTC, and when I criticized some of the worst.

"The problem is the debate has been dominated by the extremists on both sides of the issue."

I completely agree with that. It shouldn't even be a real debate. I've seen and read the most absurd things by people both defending or attacking the films (or their director). But the fact is, Star Wars (like politics, religion, and video game consoles) engenders real emotional attachment, for better or worse. People take criticism personally.

But that's not the point JM was trying to make. He was just saying that he's excited about EIII and the story unfolding. Nothing wrong, or underhanded about that.

Unless you aren't a true fan

Most people I know, well, their opinions haven't changed much. In fact most of the people I'm friends with, if their opinions changed at all, was to a more negative stance.

In fact even Carl reflects that, moreso with TPM than AotC.

I think talk is just getting amplified because of the third film, which is the maker or breaker.

Welcome to an internet message board, sometimes you get responses you don't like.

Its my first post here, so be gentle , but I have to say that I understand, or think I do, what JM is saying.. the simple fact is that once all the hyperbole has faded with time and the unbelievable level of hype and anticipation for the new trilogy, and specifically Phantom Menace, has subsided the films can be just accepted for what they are.

This is bound to sound like staunch fanboy defending, but in the end The Phantom Menace & Attack of the clones, are simply Ok films. They are not, as most internet armchair critics would have us believe, films which are so bad as to make the collective works of Ed Wood look like Stanley Kubrick, that opinion really comes from the level of disapointment of certain fans rather than the film being awful. I confess that I for one did feel the same when I saw Phantom Menace at the time but that was until I watched A New Hope on video a few weeks later and I realised one thing....

If New Hope wasn't the first film to push the boundaries of Special Effects and give us a proper space opera and instead had come out now, with all its CG whizz bang and audience apathy at the sight of such pyrotechnics, I think that it would have pretty much come and gone without a blip on the radar.

* cringes and waits for the cries of "Heretic!" *

The thing is, is that the prequel trilogy is Star Wars, and like the original trilogy it has all the same failings, that the original trilogy was criticised for on their release..... The over reliance on FX, cheesy dialogue, a by the numbers plot, variable acting and in places some slack pacing. The problem with the prequels is that the core audience has grown up, their cinematic tastes have matured to want something a bit more, and while we look back on the original trilogy with rose tinted specs which resembles a first love, we forgive it for its failings, or simply refuse to believe that they exist
. But trust me, watch the films with a dispassionate eye and you'll see that the orignals have the same prequel problems.

Now to close I will reitterate that I dont hate Star Wars (any episode) and I am pretty keen to see Episode III dispite pretty much knowing the whole thing from start to finish but I thought I'd perhaps inject a little reality in to the prequel trilogy hate, because frankly no matter how bad you may think Phantom Menace is, you cannot really say that its the worst film of all time just because it didnt live up to the almost impossible expectations and just delivered a bog standard Star Wars film, warts and all....

TPM is not, by any standard, an "okay" film.


Utter shite.

But if YOU like it don't let other opinions affect your enjoyment of the movie.


I like plenty of crap movies. I don't feel the need to defend them.

So what you're saying is that whether or not the films are good, you like them because they bring forth a nostalgic happiness. That's fine, as everyone is a fan of a movie here or there that they know isn't good. However, trying to defend the films themselves, and not your emotional connection to them, is where many people go wrong.

I think the trend that is happening is the fanbase realizing that after the 3rd movie is released, the future of the franchises is relatively unknown again. Echoes of the 20 years people had to wait for TPM. The TV show may be cool, but who knows if and when the next actual Star Wars movie will be spit out.

There was a time I really liked both prequels, but it had more to do with the decent DVD treatments than anything. Especially with TPM. Now, not so much. I can't get over how the story has devolved into this soap-opera-esque continuity nightmare, like even more so than the OT. I BARELY bought Luke and Leia being brother/sister. All of the crap introduced in the prequels in terms of the inter-personal relationships between the characters is shitty, and ruins the two movies for me ultimately.

I no longer claim that Lucas raped my childhood.

He just molested it a little bit.

Really this thread is a bit of a waste, though it was nice to hear what J.M. PRATER had to say. Nothing new can be said on the matter, there are sooo many posts on the disaster of the PT that anything written now will really come across as 'i feel like i have read this somewhere before'.

The first time i ever saw star wars OT in its entirety was the special editions in 1997 and I loved them. So much that, well I’m writing about it now so that shows how much of an impact they had on me. Well when TPM came out I was 11 and I have to say, I loved the hell out of the film while my mum was slightly disappointed as I do remember correctly. Obviously I can now see the major flaws of the film, but I still slightly like it. In fact I watched it the other day, but it comes across as pretty crap. But I remember loving it so much, I get what J.M. PRATER is talking about though. I wouldn’t advise to stare at the prequel DVDs with a complex love...that’s just WRONG! Lol

Peace out

At the risk of sounding all psychobabbly, it sounds like you have a more positive memory of the experience than the movie itself, which you're now trying to reconcile? If so, trying to convince some critic why you feel the way you do is pointless. All anyone else can at this point is watch a (flawed/masterful) movie and (hate/love) it. Unless they were there, they can't share your memory (and even if they were, their memory may be different.)

Over the years, I've accepted that my friends and family just aren't going to share the fondness for all the things that I do, and vice versa. Live and let live, and f*ck the critics.

I still enjoy them all for the most part...just a fun batch of films. I've never had a problem with the PT to the point of suddenly hating SW. Phantom Menace had its disappointments, but I think I'd be disappointed with ROTJ too if it came out today vs. when I was a little kid.

It will be interesting once all 6 are out to see what the flow is like. I don't think it will flow anywhere near as well as LOTR does as one long film.

with every new SW film there will be the fans who are clinging to the idea that it will give them that charge of the first two. it's normal, I do it too. if there's more reflection on the last two films it's (as dellamorte pointed out) because this is the last one. but generally the tidal shift you're referring to is just the natural inclination of people to look at things from the opposite perspective of the established one. the devil's advocate in us, in this case heightened by the fact that star wars is "in the news" again. (has it ever left?)

besides, time softens the edges of all things... if it can do that to real wars then certainly it can be done to "star wars."

generally though I don't see many, if anyone, doing a 180 on the films. we just can't seem to stop talking about them.

Ok thats fair enough comment!

I wasn't saying I liked Phantom Menace per se, more just trying to say that in reality none of the Star Wars films are fantastic they are all "of a standard" and that some of the venom leveled not only at Menace but also Clones and without a doubt RotS when its released, comes from a more mature viewing of something that, had it been released 28 years ago, would have shaped a generation such as A New Hope did, and been forgiven for any issues that existed.

Just as now, while some may say that Darth Maul for example was a wasted villain, the same could be said of Boba Fett in Return of the Jedi... The Ewoks in the same movie are no better or worse than the Gungans... the list goes on....

Are kids embracing the new movies the way that those of us in the 30 year old or so age range did when the OT came out? I didn't have that impression, but I could be wrong. I don't have kids, nor do my close friends, so it's hard for me to tell. The toys certainly don't seem to move the same way they did when they came out for the OT (apart from an initial rush before the film actually opened). Until recently every time I saw a display for figures they were heavily discounted.

whats with people saying "they can't do it" you can't go and sit down and watch a fucking movie? good lord people it's not like, here is your chance to meet your long lost first love again, this is a film and a form of entertainment. Go, have fun and just watch a movie, why do some people have to be so fucking emotional! I am a huge Star Wars fun, but damn, I just don't get some people.

...and a strange, boring sadness fell across the Star Wars community; inevitable, though,...(as everyone else had foreseen), the die-hards will view this as a sudden 'moment of clarity'...much like what flashes through the minds of failed suicides.

*...and I find the films fun myself!...can I admit that?"

Poopoodle! What's with this get out clause? You pussy!

yes, if there is a sea change in how fans are treating the prequels it is partly, as Andre says, due to a new film coming out and it being the last one. it might also be exhaustion at expending so much energy in feeling aggrieved that the prequels didn't live up to expectations. it's difficult to hate something (especially a movie) so hard for so long. Equally the same arguments trotted out for 6 or so years on messageboads gets a little tiring.

not that that says anything about the quality of the films (honest). there are people whose dislike for the movies is not still based on that very strong emotional reaction of 6 years ago. their opinions are not going to change any time soon.

so i don't think there's going to be a mass reappraisal of the prequel trilogy as a whole even if ROTS is somehow in a different class as the first two. Which it won't be, by the way.

I don't get this mentality.

"The Prequels aren't great, but neither was the Original Trilogy"

The Originals had great special effects, a great story, great characters and great, memorable dialogue. They were great movies.

I honestly didn't find a single character to be interesting or likable in Attack of the Clones. The two good prequel characters were killed off at the end of TPM.

Seriously, compare Han and Leia's dialogue in ESB to Anakin and Padme's in AotC, then try to say those movies are on the same level.

coffinrock's here! the party's started!

coffinrock, i honestly hope bashing the prequels is your idea of entertainment.

If you are in any way serious in your singling out of star wars fans for derision then it's got to speak to some kind of pathology.

but if it's just some sort of messageboard sport for you, carry on. We enjoy your love of hatred for these movies.

Maybe he has a thing about being called 'Carl Cuntingham'?

Fair point!
The dialogue in Empire is indeed very good, showing the lack of Lucas interference, infact pretty much everything in Empire worked, so I'll conceed that, you can't strictly line all the original trilogy movies in a row and say the prequels match in quality. But the thing is, is that Empire is the stand out chapter out of all six, yup I'm guessing Sith will have to be some kind of miracle on a biblical proportion to match it, and basically the other films in the original trilogy are improved by it.

I mean lets be honest and say that Return of the jedi was poor ok, with the exception of the excellent final showdown between Luke, Vader & The Emperor which I thought was superb; the rest was dull, had ewoks, killed Boba Fett with a stick, had an insane rescue plan of Han Solo plot which required all the main characters to get captured, more muppets than the whole Henson family to 10 generations could control resulting in a naff extended edition of a song and dance routine.... I have to say that, rightly or wrongly, I would place Attack of the clones above Return of the Jedi, because naff dialogue (or should that be Dire-log) aside Clones did a fair to middling job of trying to create a mystery plot, introduced the stormtroopers, started to work its way towards the original trilogy, it had some beautiful FX work IMHO, some good Obi Wan moments, such as his fight in the rain and the chase through the asteroids and at least tries to do something with the dull political machinations that ground Phantom Menace to a halt.... All in all I think that Clones should have been Episode 1 and started the prequels from there.

In the end as someone else mentioned in this thread, we all have our own opinions on this series and my comments here arent going to sway anyones feelings on either trilogy one way or another so I'll stop right there and leave it at that because as a wise man once said "opinions are like arseholes everyone has one"

Yep, I use that alot in my debates, lol. And you cant say the actors in the prequels are bad, they're the cream of the crop almost, its just down to writing and we know who wrote these movies...

Personally, I think the more time passes, the more the first two prequels will be derided. Sorry but thats the way it goes...

I'd rather watch TPM in whole than any part, let alone the trailer to AOTC. Hell, I'd rather marvel at the cybersex between Diahann Carroll and Chewbacca's Old Man or Wilfred Brimley fight a rubber suit monster than AOTC.

So for the record...I'm 1 and 1. He's batting .500 with me.

But I love this fanboy bitching about the prequels. First off...all the SW movies are kiddie flicks. Just because we were the target demographic the first go around doesn't mean shit. Accept this as fact.

Second...learn to live with the fact that Lucas can't write dialogue and has no eye for talent - I'm looking at you Portman! What 'saved' him the first time was that he was on the frontline of the FX revolution, and had the best people around him. Those days and those souls are long gone.

But this bickering is pointless. There are much better movies than The Star Wars films.

However Jar Jar and The Gungans are no more mind-numbing than Chewbacca and the antics of Artoo and Threepio.

And Jake Lloyd is no worse than Mark Hamill. Only Hamill got two more films to improve. Lloyd didn't.

He also didn't write 'Yippee' either...

The Prequels were good.

Are the Prequels Perfect? No.

Are the Prequels what you would have made if you were in charge? No.

Are the Prequels Hella Good -yes -

They are good and most people enjoyed them - but the hard core people who are adamently against them are so vocal sometimes it seems everyone is against them. The prequels have some problems but so what - They are very much star wars and I think they are frigging great.

Go watch your orinal cut SW films on VHS and feel sorry for yourselves until the cows come home.

I love both Star Wars prequels, though not as much as the OT, but that's a given. Aside from the fact that they are classics, it's also mainly because I watched them non-stop as a child. Such an action elevates a film to super-nostalgic status and such films are incredibly hard to surpass, no matter if they are good or not. Two other childhood favorites of mine: Flash Gordon and Masters of the Universe (and yes, I have both on DVD and still watch them regularly, I will admit it.) The only real complaints that I have ever had with the prequels are as follows:

1. Some of the dialogue. Lucas needed dialogue help with the script, like he had received with Empire and Jedi.
2. Directing the actors. Wooden acting DOES exist in the OT no matter what anyone says. Hayden Christian, Natalie Portman, and a few others (while not giving bad performances) could have benefited here and there from some more direction on their roles.
3. Over-reliance on CGI. CGI should be used to enhance the film, not become it. By the way, I was very pleased to see that a lot of actual sets were built for Episode 3.

Do these problems make them horrible films? Absolutely not. Each has improved upon the other, and I have a feeling that Episode 3 will be the closest to the feel of the OT of the three (and it should be). Revenge of the Sith is the film that we have all been waiting for (one way or another). The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones were just stories that needed to be told in order to finally get to what everyone was most excited to see: The birth of Vader, the destruction of the Jedi, and the fall of the Old Republic.

(P.S. - EVERYONE has been waiting for Episode 3 for one of two reasons: To see the final chapter in their beloved Star Wars Saga or to finally find peace when SW fans no longer have a new film to discuss.)

You are a fucking tool because you won't let it go. Opinions are just like assholes. Same goes for yours, same goes for mine.

If Lucas raped your childhood, I wish he had shot his wad in your mouth then maybe you could shut the fuck up about it.

You don't like these movies, we get it we get it.....goddamn broken record.

And the beat goes on.......

And don't give me the worst ever guff! As long as "Billy Jack" lives, that kind of hyperbole is horseshit.

Wanna talk bad movies....

"Billy Jack Goes to Washington"

"The Trial of Billy Jack"

"Billy Jack"

Watch and suffer.

Come on, you know you wish Lucas shot his wad in YOUR mouth.

In your opinion, but in mine, given Lucas's resources and time, they are collassal failures. They are neither compelling artistically nor good popcorn entertainment. I have only seen AOTC once, Phantom twice, and have no desire at all to sit through either of them again.

Lucas seems so incredibly inept at even the fundamentals of movie making -- casting, story structure, characters, etc... I have a hard time believing he was even involved in the Original Triology. And unlike others, who have placed the OT in some sort of canonical Film Heaven, I found them just solid to very good space fantasy pics.

What's remarkable is the dogged fanboy insistence, we, the public at large, just don't get it. Yeah, we do, and it isn't very good.

Yeah, that's why they're called opinions!!!

Is irony defined by someone resurrecting a thread that went four days without posts to tell someone they can't let it go?

Survey says....

This is fun.

Vulgarian? My family heritage is mostly english, Irish and some native american. However, I do enjoy a good dirty joke on occassion.

At the end of the day you are still bitter. And taste is subjective, Skippy. Read it, know it, live it. You don't have better taste in anyone just because you dislike one movie that someone else digs. Thats just being an indignant cock.

And it was yummy!