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The Matrix Saga: A Look Back

post #1 of 321
Thread Starter 
I've been a fan of all of these films since their consecutive release since 1999. I believe that they have changed the way actions films are made, but more than that, I believe, like Bladerunner, the films are flawed masterpieces. I know that I'm probably in the minority in my opinion but it's been amazing, I've been watching the series today, there's so much to them, so much to bite off.

After 2003 I had all that I could take of the world of the Matrix. Now, after not seeing any of the films for about a year, I watch them now with absolute delight that there is no other film or series of flms that can touch the uniqueness of what the Wachowski Brother have created.

J.M. Prater
post #2 of 321
Its nice to know how you feel John Gaeta.

I've put off all things Matrix for a while maybe i'll take a look at them again in a few years. The final film still leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
post #3 of 321
I love the Matrix trilogy, so I might be a bit bias. I understand that the movies have their problems. But I agree - after all of the hype, it's nice to revisit the movies. Haven't seen Reloaded in the longest time. I just saw Revolutions again about 3 months ago. It will be interesting to see how people view the trilogy in the next few years.

I may have to make a Matrix weekend soon.
post #4 of 321
While the first is the best, I still love both sequels (Revolutions more than Reloaded). Best part of the sequels? Hugo Weaving as Smith.
post #5 of 321
Ugh. I really can't stand Revolutions (could the Battle of Zion be any more boring?), though the original and Reloaded are good films.
post #6 of 321
My feelings exactly.

However in the interests of moving the thread forward on a positive note I will watch the entire trilogy one day and look forward to how all 3 films together stack up.
post #7 of 321
I was given the Ultimate Matrix Collection as a Christmas gift. I hadn't seen any of the films in a good while, so I set some time aside to watch them. I enjoyed The Matrix as I had expected (though I'm not in love with the film like so many others), and then started up Reloaded, which works so much better when it follows the original (the 45 minutes or so seem more like a breather). But when Revolutions abandons everyone for a pointless special effect battle that isn't the least bit exciting... ugh.

But hey, 2 out of 3 ain't bad.
post #8 of 321
I'm a big fan of the whole trilogy, but the CG-assisted fight (and flight) scenes of Reloaded and Revolutions are not aging well.

Then again a good chunk of the effects weren't very convincing when they were released. I fear for the HD releases.
post #9 of 321
In theaters, i enjoyed the sequels but once released on dvd, they just couldn't hold my attention anymore. I recently went back to them still to find that i get rather bored. Not everything was bad, not by a longshot, but they (the sequels) just seemed so drawnout and over thought that i couldn't take the series in such large doses.
post #10 of 321
In reviewing the matrix films, I think the matrix is the one that holds up most. As much as I love Reloaded I'll admit there are some clunky pieces of dialogue, just watch the scene where Morpheus ask's Link why he joined his crew.

"I don't why you volunteered to join my crew but I'm going to ask you to do one thing"

"Trust me"

I don't know what it is but the delivery really bugs me. Then there's Morpheus''s speech.

I enjoyed what Reloaded tried to accomplish. I think it was the most anime influenced out of all three, it asked the most questions, just look at the structure, the tone and that's why it failed, it asked question's but didn't give any answers. Anime can be highly cryptic, that's the reason why some hate Anime and this film was playing to a crowd that had probably never seen an anime hence the critical reaction.

Revolutions is the kicker though, aside from the Neo vs Agent Smith fight which is the closest we'll ever get to a live action Akira/DragonBall Z action scene.
post #11 of 321
I think the problem with the Matrix sequels is the same problem with the Star Wars prequels, the fans came up with stories and ideas more entertaining than the ones the filmmakers presented. Before Matrix Reloaded I remember reading somewhere a massive post too long to recap here, but it was an awesome theory relating back to Plato's Allegory of the Cave that would been a terriffic mindfuck had the Wachowski Brothers chosen to go with it for the sequel. Obviously they went their own way with albino twins, werewolves, philosophy that bogged down the story line and odd swordplay (it's arguable if Colbumine influenced toning down the gun violence). It would be interesting to see how Reloaded or Revolutions would have been accepted if either one were just the sole Matrix movie to ever come out, without the others to skew expectations.

J.M. Prater
post #12 of 321
I definitely agree with you there. There were some fascinating theories being thrown around in pre-release threads, I remember Kurt Wimmer's, that was awesome, none of them ended up in the movie.
post #13 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozz
Before Matrix Reloaded I remember reading somewhere a massive post too long to recap here, but it was an awesome theory relating back to Plato's Allegory of the Cave that would been a terriffic mindfuck had the Wachowski Brothers chosen to go with it for the sequel.
Matrix 1 is the allegory of the Cave. And maybe you're thinking of the 'matrix within a matrix' theory? That was horribly predictable and I'm glad the Wachowskis didnt go that route.

Quote:
(it's arguable if Colbumine influenced toning down the gun violence).
I can understand why people would think that, but come on, after Matrix 1, Neo doesnt need guns, and the violent gunplay picks up again in Revolutions, hell we even get Morpheus with an uzi in Reloaded so I dont know why people think that at all.

The movies are masterpieces, ahead of their time. They're not perfect, but what they accomplished is unprecedented in my opinion. Revolutions contains the whole meaning of the trilogy, so please dont hate it.
post #14 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by cognizant
Revolutions contains the whole meaning of the trilogy, so please dont hate it.
What makes revolutions any less deserving of critiscism. If that's the case, I think you should re-think your whole argument against TPM or AOTC. I'm not trying to start a flame war, I just don't think Revolutions was a very good film even if it did contain the whole meaning of the series.
post #15 of 321
The difference between the three Matrix movies lies in how much development they each went through. The first one is so good because it was in 'pre-production' for about 12 years. Of course, they had obviously developed ideas for the sequels at the same time, just not enough of them. But hey, at least they had a pretty decent ending for the series. (The ending of Revolutions, not Revolutions itself)

I've been a fan of the idea that you could cut Reloaded and Revolutions together, using only the well developed ideas, and you'd have a solid two hour sequel. Someone should do that.
post #16 of 321
I think the most annoying thing in the trilogy is Roland's penchant for the word "goddamn".

Other than that...well...It's too soon for me after braving the entire Ultimate Collection over the course of a week to go arguing this trilogy again.

But, essentially, I've come to realize that the films have simultaneously more and less to offer than the general public is willing to accept. In general:

The Matrix is a much smaller film than people remember it as.

Reloaded has far more going for it intellectually AFTER seeing Revolutions than before. Especially the Merovingian.

Enjoyment of Revolutions hinges more on your appreciation of Zion and the humanity within than anything else. At the same time, those who hated it because the film spent too much time away from the Matrix missed the point of the trilogy long ago anyway.

The trilogy works much better as a whole than with years/months in between.
post #17 of 321
I loved the original Matrix, was eagerly anticipating Reloaded and was really, REALLY disappointed. The twins were disposable fops, the Merovingian was lame, The Architect was needlessly ponderous, the Werewolves and Vampires exist in the matrix (programs that act up) theories were lame, and the worst part was Fishburnes performance which wasn't helped by the militant Zion speech.

So I stayed far, far away from Revolutions until earlier this week. It was a free rental so I figured I'd give it a try. It wasn't too bad, actually it was alot better than I thought it would be. Of course I shortened the movie by scanning past most of the battle for Zion and a few other draggy parts. But I Think if they would have used Ideas and better editing and pacing from both movies to create one sequel it would have been received much better.

There were some good Ideas in there, the total war feel over the Battle of Zion gelled with me, and lets face it: it took alot of balls to kill off Neo and Trinity! What other big Hollywood picture would kill off the two main leads? You have to give it up to the Wachiowskis for that.

But in the end the pacing between the two movies hurts the overall story. They shouldn't have focused on the twins in Reloaded, the architect scene should have been halved, Lawrence Fishburne should have been put on a diet and his Zion speech rewritten or removed, the battle for zion should have been shorter.....


There was a great sequel in there somewhere. Maybe someday a fanboy will release their own edit of the two movies as one.
post #18 of 321
I have to say that I liked the first Matrix movie, it was novel, exciting and looked fantastic. The concept was pure william gibson and it worked well... Come the end of the film the possibilities for the sequel were endless, with Neo acting like a Superhero around the virtual world to convince everyone else that something was up, for example....

But what we got in the first sequel was ponderous, pretentious and generally unexciting. Reloaded, promised so much and delivered so little, such as the ideas that Ghosts, vampires, werewolves and other supernatural critters are really glitches in the matrix or even ancient mad programs off doing their own thing, which nicely hinted at Smith becoming such a thing. But that was quickly swept away along with the Darth Maul style villains in the shape of the two twins, who like Maul get a lot of press and media time splurged out on them but ultimately, like Maul again, do fuck all and are pretty quickly dispatched. The Merovingen & the Keymaker were again both wasted ideas and in the end were nothing but hollow plot devices to keep our heros moving along from one set piece to another... then finally we come to the Architect.

The Architect is probably the best idea most badly executed which for all its ipso facto style talking actually gave me the most hope for something genuinely interesting for the rest of the film and in turn the last sequel. But as with the rest of the movie before it, the Architect was simply there to propel Neo in to another setpiece, but this time to throw doubt on wether he would save Trinity....

The suggestion come the end of Reloaded that perhaps the Architects speech was hinting at a virtual sandbox for humans who were trying to escape analysed to make the next version of the matrix was a good one, not that original for any regular viewer of the Twilight Zone or reader of Tad Williams Otherland series, but still it was a nifty idea for cinema and backed up by Neo's single handed sentinel killing.

And then along comes Revolutions and so its quickly proved that really the last two sequels were done for the money and in a rush....

Ideas that, although dully presented, in Reloaded were quickly discarded in favour of giving the series some kind of fantasy element in Neo's abilities actually existing in the real world, other than the sandbox idea. The merovingin, supposedly so powerful in Reloaded is now devolved to a bloke who, if you stuff a gun in his face, will do what you ask. The oracle, continues to spout on and again promises some real depth to the story but in the end nothing comes of anything, except big CG fights and lots of Zion action....

Then you have the whole pseudo religous aspect to Neos sacrifice but by that point, like bad manga, the ending feels like its being made up as it goes..... and thats the thing as Agent Black Smith says the time spent on production was less for the two sequels combined than the original and so you have a big smush of ideas that indivdiually could be spawned in to some kind of interesting story by themselves, but when they're all jumbled together in two films you end up feeling were nothing but a collection of concepts shoehorned together to sound "high concept" and joined up by bland action set pieces....

The two sequels unfortunately do, by comparison to the lean original, stink up the joint and frankly The Matrix is a film that should have stayed as a single film because in the end its obvious now, with the game, the animatrix, and the architects speech etc, that the Wachowski's didnt have a clue where to take the series next.
post #19 of 321
Masterpieces?
post #20 of 321
Just my little opionin, it's funny how the first one was the best, ( writen by someone else) then we have the final 2 (writen by the "brothers") and well, they just don't stand up to the first. they should have just hired that poor(now super rich) lady that wrote the first movie, cut her a deal and just had her write the final 2
post #21 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Venkman
they should have just hired that poor(now super rich) lady that wrote the first movie, cut her a deal and just had her write the final 2
Attached to this post is the (not rich at all) lady's only available 'proof' that she is the 'mother of the matrix'. You might notice something about these two extracts from her work, you'll notice that its SHITE.

Quote:
I think you should re-think your whole argument against TPM or AOTC. I'm not trying to start a flame war, I just don't think Revolutions was a very good film even if it did contain the whole meaning of the series.
But Reloaded and Revolutions werent prequels and were planned well in advance, so the SW prequels dont need to be mentioned here. I respect your opinion that Revolutions wasnt a very good film, it is definitely different in tone to the previous two. But I personally think it ties up all the themes and ideas explored in the trilogy very well, we end with peace and coexistence. Something I think many people werent expecting, they might have wanted one side to beat the other.

Quote:
Lawrence Fishburne should have been put on a diet and his Zion speech rewritten or removed, the battle for zion should have been shorter...
Morpheus's arc is one of my favourite things about this trilogy. You'll notice he has all the zealot of a religious fundamentalist terrorist in the first two films, which in effect he is. Then he gets the shock of his life at the end of Reloaded and is a new man in Revolutions, he even begins to 'hope' for the first time, notice the last thing he says to Neo, "I can only hope you know what you're doing"; its a complete role reversal, he'd usually reply to a line like that with "I dont need to hope, I know it". The trilogy for him is a big wakeup call, and he eventually takes on Niobe's (Socratic skeptic) attitude, believing in Neo as a person and not a 'One'.

Quote:
Ideas that, although dully presented, in Reloaded were quickly discarded in favour of giving the series some kind of fantasy element in Neo's abilities actually existing in the real world, other than the sandbox idea.
The trilogy was planned in a way where many references to religion, science and politics would be intergrated, along with a bunch of other miscellaneous pop culture references to anime and kung fu. Revolutions tests peoples patience and understanding because I think it gets more spiritual, we start to see 'reality' from a machine point of view, and thats represented through Neovision. But the method which he is able to disable machines in the real world isnt spiritual at all, Neo touched the machine source, and has a direct connection to it, so with the power of his mind, he is able to interact with machines, all the pod born humans are basically hyperhumans with antennas stuck in their brains, how do you think they connect to the matrix? Come on, you must admit the whole matrix-within-a-matrix idea would have been so cliched, I think the whole concept of Reloaded was pretty smart myself, allowing humans the illusion of freedom in the real world, giving them a false hope with a prophesied 'one', and then destroying them over and over. It makes you look at the first one in a completely different way, and thats brave filmmaking in my opinion. At least it wasnt a rehash of the first one, there is a definite progression of story and character development. Its just debatable about how it was all handled, and everyone is allowed an opinion, some think it was all badly executed, and some think its more or less perfect the way it was filmed.
LL
LL
post #22 of 321
I enjoyed Revolutions the most and wish it was an hour or so longer. An hour and half is just not enough to tieup a saga this big. All the arguements for both sides have been made. Now, watching the trilogy 2 years later and without hype, I like it even more.
post #23 of 321
I can't see a Matrix thread and not have something to say. heck, if it wasn't for all things Matrix I wouldn't be on here and all the great experiences I've had on here since joining would never have happened. Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Matrix Trilogy is one of my favorite movie trilogies or series ever. Star Wars is up there but I think for me the Matrix edges it out by a bit. There's just some magic there that works for me, that I can connect with on some level. I really dig the whole reality as illusion concept and how it was introduced in the first film and was pretty suprised at how it was tweaked and expanded upon for the sequels. My experience with these fill has always been one of pure joy (warts and all), and I still really need to take a day and watch them all back to back. I traded in my old dvds and now have the Ultimate Collection set. I also want to check out the Animatrix again as well. Lately I've been enjoying the Animatrix soundtrack cd as well.

It's been a while since I've seen the movies now. I'll have to JACK IN and RELOAD the dvds and REVISIT the saga and the extras. Oh I'm lame! But lame as I am, I loves me the Matrix... for me, it the ONE (D'oh!). Ok, I'll stop now.

One last thing, I just felt the need to bring up the real world fight between Neo and Bane. No wire fu, no bullet time, just some good old fashioned beatdown ass kicking. Good stuff. And Bane as Smith...? Awesome.
post #24 of 321
I watched The Matrix recently, after having endured the sequels.

It's no longer as magical as I thought it was.
post #25 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanoblech
And Bane as Smith...? Awesome.

Yeah that guy kicked ass. He had Weavings inflections down pat. And the real world beat down that Bane and Neo handed out was balls-to-the-wall cool.
post #26 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by cognizant
Matrix 1 is the allegory of the Cave. And maybe you're thinking of the 'matrix within a matrix' theory? That was horribly predictable and I'm glad the Wachowskis didnt go that route.



I can understand why people would think that, but come on, after Matrix 1, Neo doesnt need guns, and the violent gunplay picks up again in Revolutions, hell we even get Morpheus with an uzi in Reloaded so I dont know why people think that at all.

The movies are masterpieces, ahead of their time. They're not perfect, but what they accomplished is unprecedented in my opinion. Revolutions contains the whole meaning of the trilogy, so please dont hate it.
Well since the Matrix itself represents the Cave, the allegory would not have been limited to the first film. But you're getting too hung up on one story.

You are obviously very emotionally attached to the stories so discussing with you what could have made the films better and what didn't is not possible.
post #27 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nanoblech
I can't see a Matrix thread and not have something to say. heck, if it wasn't for all things Matrix I wouldn't be on here and all the great experiences I've had on here since joining would never have happened. Anyway, I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Matrix Trilogy is one of my favorite movie trilogies or series ever. Star Wars is up there but I think for me the Matrix edges it out by a bit. There's just some magic there that works for me, that I can connect with on some level. I really dig the whole reality as illusion concept and how it was introduced in the first film and was pretty suprised at how it was tweaked and expanded upon for the sequels. My experience with these fill has always been one of pure joy (warts and all), and I still really need to take a day and watch them all back to back. I traded in my old dvds and now have the Ultimate Collection set. I also want to check out the Animatrix again as well. Lately I've been enjoying the Animatrix soundtrack cd as well.

It's been a while since I've seen the movies now. I'll have to JACK IN and RELOAD the dvds and REVISIT the saga and the extras. Oh I'm lame! But lame as I am, I loves me the Matrix... for me, it the ONE (D'oh!). Ok, I'll stop now.

One last thing, I just felt the need to bring up the real world fight between Neo and Bane. No wire fu, no bullet time, just some good old fashioned beatdown ass kicking. Good stuff. And Bane as Smith...? Awesome.
I couldn't agree more. I love these films (yes, all of them) and have never had a bad experience watching them. The discussions I've had here on CHUD with pure Matrix fans has been wonderful. Cinemax played the trilogy non-stop in December, so I catch pieces here and there when I can. But I've already had several Matrix marathons of my own since buying the DVDs. And while people like to complain about the clunky dialouge, those sections are actually my favorite bits. Reloaded stands as my favorite film precisely because of the speeches by the Oracle, Merovigian, and Architect. And I love the train station opening in Revolutions with the Indian man (who I've met in real life and he is totally cool and very nice). Sometimes its nice to see an action/sci-fi movie attempt to do more than just blow stuff up. Does the trilogy have flaws? Certainly. But they aren't big enough to stop me from enjoying the films.
post #28 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozz
Well since the Matrix itself represents the Cave, the allegory would not have been limited to the first film. But you're getting too hung up on one story.
Well obviously, but the Cave theme is mostly prominent in the first film as its introducing audiences to the concept, its just in the background for the sequels, we get more about control, causality and such. Keanu had to read three books before he starred in the first film, I like to think each film has the essence of each; 'Simulacra & Simulations' = Matrix 1, 'Out of Control' = Reloaded, 'Introducing Evolutionary Psychology' = Revolutions.

At the end of the day, people take what they can from the films, Cornel West says the Wachowskis managed to blend 'so called high brow and so called low brow culture together' in a very cool fashion, and its true.

Quote:
You are obviously very emotionally attached to the stories so discussing with you what could have made the films better and what didn't is not possible.
Of course it is, I dont worship the damn movies, I appreciate the effort involved and what they pulled off.

Possible improvements to Revolutions:

#Less of the main Zion battle, more of the key characters encountering physical/emotional conflicts.

#MORE DEUS EX MACHINA!!! And more machine city. And more Merovingian.

#Elaboration on characters such as Seraph, the Merovingian's history (although its most likely his past is enterwined with the process of the One, maybe he was a previous 'one', just read up on the merovingians to get it), basically there's too much left open for interpretation, which isnt so bad in of itself, but it wouldnt have hurt the Wachowskis to tell the audience this, because its no doubt all thought out. I dont mind learning about the characters pasts in EU type material like Matrix Online and a rumoured ETM2, but still, it should have been explained in the movies.

Anyway, this could go on and on, but I like the trilogy, its my favourite flaws and all, and Reloaded is perfectly structured in my opinion, Neo just follows what people tell him to do like a dumbass, we see what the matrix is and the path of the one, and Revolutions just smashes it to pieces, with Neo finally acting on his own will (even though the Oracle knows what he will do, she doesnt order him this time)
post #29 of 321
Count me in as loving the trilogy. I find the second film the strongest, for the reasons Diva already shared (I also think it's the best American action film, in terms of creative and varied sequences, ever made). I find the third film the weakest, though I love the conclusion. Overall, it's a remarkable vision, and the sequels were quite ballsy. Kudos to the filmmakers for breaking the mold, challenging the audience, and sticking by their guns (so to speak).

Great series,
Chuck
post #30 of 321
I watched a show on the Da Vinci code last night that elaborated on the Merovingian kings. The theory the book is based on is that the Merovingians have the blood of christ in them and are his descendants. I immediately thought of the character in the movie and the theories that he's a previous "savior", in effect a descendant of the previous chosen one. Fleshes things out a little bit.
post #31 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diva
And while people like to complain about the clunky dialouge, those sections are actually my favorite bits. Reloaded stands as my favorite film precisely because of the speeches by the Oracle, Merovigian, and Architect. And I love the train station opening in Revolutions with the Indian man (who I've met in real life and he is totally cool and very nice). Sometimes its nice to see an action/sci-fi movie attempt to do more than just blow stuff up.

Yup. It kinda worked out that way for me too. All the action bits were great, but what stuck out and made it's mark in my mind was all the dialogue. For all the special effects and technical wizrdry going on, the story took center stage for me, with the characters and their interactions and how they were all presented. The same can't be said for too many other special effects behemoths out there. People talk about style over substance and site the Matrix as an example of that, but I'll never be able to say I agree. The style was there for me and so was the substance, in spades no less. The Matrix sure isn't a Van Helsing in that regard.
post #32 of 321
On the Revolutions front, I enjoyed the idea of the two sides reaching a truce, but did it have to end with such a cheesy CGI sunrise?

I think Reloaded and Revolutions can be combined into one really good film. Give Zion some heart - leave Morpheus there as Neo and Trinity leave for the Machine City. Have Morpheus defending the Gates of Zion, intercut with the other two getting closer and closer. Morpheus dies in battle opening the gate for the Logos to get through, and then Trinity is impaled (with a much shorter death scene). So now two of our three heroes are dead as Neo enters the Matrix...

I don't know. Just works better for me.
post #33 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon Ma
In reviewing the matrix films, I think the matrix is the one that holds up most. As much as I love Reloaded I'll admit there are some clunky pieces of dialogue, just watch the scene where Morpheus ask's Link why he joined his crew.

"I don't why you volunteered to join my crew but I'm going to ask you to do one thing"

"Trust me"

I don't know what it is but the delivery really bugs me.
For all the praising people do of the first film, they don't seem to have watched it in a long time. That kind of delivery was very much there in the first film too. Remember some of Morpheus's lines?

"Do you want to know. What. It. Is."
"Welcome. To the desert. Of the real."
etc.

The sequels had the misfortune of being four years separated from the original. They were also enormously hyped up by that stupid, fat fuck Joel Silver. When people revisit the sequels they revisit them in that set of circumstances, so they can never be good. In contrast, people remember the exciting time when the first film came out, and that makes it critic-proof.

I urge people to now watch the trilogy as presented with the Ultimate Collection set. The re-mastering and re-coloring of the first film just emphasizes how it is not really different from the sequels. Instead of there being a four year gap, try going right from the end of The Matrix into the beginning of Reloaded, with no more than a few minutes of pause. It works beautifully as a continuous story.

As far as I am concerned, the world missed the boat with this franchise. I'm more confident in my opinion of these films than I am of any other film I have ever reviewed. For my money, the Matrix series is the only one in which each film tops the preceding one. At its start, the story concerns a small crew on a ship, by the end it becomes colossal, apocalyptic. The third film in particular is payoff after payoff after payoff.

If people refuse to give them another chance now, then perhaps in ten or twenty years we will see just how overlooked they have been.
post #34 of 321
I gave them another chance after a long wait. The Matrix and Reloaded were entertaining, Revolutions most certainly was not. Simple as that.
post #35 of 321
The sequels, to me: Half unwatchably bad, half brilliant. I loved the brilliant parts enough to see Reloaded 7 times in the theatre (one of those IMAX) and Revolutions 3 times (also 1 in IMAX).

When all is said and done, looking back, the Zion shit is just intolerable. The good parts are still good, but they failed to create a really compelling story arc to connect the interesting thematic/philosophical elements. Great characters like Morpheus got completely short changed, too. Trinity became very irritating.

The recasting of the Oracle (and the presence of 2 insignificant supporting characters) completely robs the end of Revolutions of any emotional resonance.

I haven't watched any of the films in months. I'm trying to abstain, so when I do watch them again, I might have the patience to actually sit through all of Reloaded and Revolutions.

Also: The Burly Brawl is a fantastic action scene, and a triumph of computer animation.
post #36 of 321
I must admit the Trinity's last scene was far too long, it just went on and on. But I honestly didnt mind any scene in Zion. I found the whole place be fascinating too. Notice how each person's home has a red door? Its like the pod towers, but with the pods inside instead of out, a visual clue to how they're all free but within another controlling system.

The burly brawl is insanely good fun.
post #37 of 321
Quote:
Its like the pod towers, but with the pods inside instead of out, a visual clue to how they're all free but within another controlling system.

But does that make the scenes any less boring?
post #38 of 321
My favorite moment in the entire Matrix trilogy comes in Revolutions, when Smith goes into his long winded rant directed at Neo, "WHY! WHY DO YOU PERSIST MR ANDERSON!?"

Neo slowly rises to his feet, and gives the simplest answer possible:

"Because I choose to."

LOVE IT
post #39 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape
But does that make the scenes any less boring?
I was never bored while watching any of the films, cant say the same for others though. Alot of people complained about the protrayal of Zion and how much time it took up in the beginning of Reloaded, but what the hell did they expect? Everyone wanted to know about Zion by the end of Matrix 1, so we got it in Reloaded, the way the Wachowskis invisioned it. The only parts that could be considered boring in my opinion are scenes with Lock, but even they were interesting because we got a glimpse of a character driven by motives that were different from everyone else but understandable too, kinda like Cypher in the first film.

A reasonable cristicism would be the films are too dense, but to counter that, with repeat viewing you are able to digest them better. I was completely blown away on my first viewing of Reloaded, there was so much to take in, it was overwhelming. You've got to have balls to end a mainstream action movie with a lengthy scene of long winded dialogue like we see with the Architect.
post #40 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Reese
The recasting of the Oracle... completely robs the end of Revolutions of any emotional resonance.
the original actress that portrayed the oracle died in between films. this is why they had to recast the role.
post #41 of 321
I feel like the last two films are the equivalent of "fetch quests" from a videogame. The motivations of the characters are not driving the plot, so much as the plot is driving them. I mean, I'm still at a loss to figure why the trainman/S&M club scenes are included at all. Granted, they illustrate a philosphical point, but they serve no purpose in advancing the films. If I wanted "hard" philosophy, I'd read it.

I could do with the first film, a black screen that says "A bunch of really boring shit happens", and then the final fight between Smith and Neo, which was the only scene in the last two films that felt like it was connected to the original Matrix film.
post #42 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD
I feel like the last two films are the equivalent of "fetch quests" from a videogame. The motivations of the characters are not driving the plot, so much as the plot is driving them. I mean, I'm still at a loss to figure why the trainman/S&M club scenes are included at all. Granted, they illustrate a philosphical point, but they serve no purpose in advancing the films. If I wanted "hard" philosophy, I'd read it.

I could do with the first film, a black screen that says "A bunch of really boring shit happens", and then the final fight between Smith and Neo, which was the only scene in the last two films that felt like it was connected to the original Matrix film.
Yep.
post #43 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by The LD
I feel like the last two films are the equivalent of "fetch quests" from a videogame.
This can be applied to Matrix 1 and 2, as they are showcase of a generic 'path' that the 'one' must walk, and it is subsequently quashed with Revolutions. The 'videogame' allegory is of course ironic considering the virtual reality they all occupy (I think I see a gameboy in the Chinatown scene but noone believes me).

Quote:
The motivations of the characters are not driving the plot, so much as the plot is driving them. I mean, I'm still at a loss to figure why the trainman/S&M club scenes are included at all. Granted, they illustrate a philosphical point, but they serve no purpose in advancing the films. If I wanted "hard" philosophy, I'd read it.
The S&M club is a contrast to the Zion rave, its just establishing the location as 'hell', because you know, its 'club hel', and Trinity has to go there to get Neo back, and Persephone is reference to a greek mythological character who lives in the underworld and yaddi yadda. Its fun, the movies get people's attention and they start to dig deeper and pick up books like Plato's 'Republic' or Baudrillard's 'Simulacra & Simulation', etc, etc. The movies are a good starting point for newcomers and veterans to a variety of different philosophies.
post #44 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by cognizant
I was never bored while watching any of the films, cant say the same for others though. Alot of people complained about the protrayal of Zion and how much time it took up in the beginning of Reloaded, but what the hell did they expect? Everyone wanted to know about Zion by the end of Matrix 1, so we got it in Reloaded, the way the Wachowskis invisioned it. The only parts that could be considered boring in my opinion are scenes with Lock, but even they were interesting because we got a glimpse of a character driven by motives that were different from everyone else but understandable too, kinda like Cypher in the first film.[b]
The complaining doesn't stem from seeing the city itself, it's that we spend 45 minutes there and learn nothing about it and are given no reason as to why we should care for these people. That's why the Battle of Zion is so utterly dull - it's not played as an entertaining action sequence, but as something where we should really be hoping for the survival of these people (a la Helm's Deep in The Two Towers), and yet we couldn't give two shits about them.

Quote:
A reasonable cristicism would be the films are too dense, but to counter that, with repeat viewing you are able to digest them better. I was completely blown away on my first viewing of Reloaded, there was so much to take in, it was overwhelming. You've got to have balls to end a mainstream action movie with a lengthy scene of long winded dialogue like we see with the Architect.
I never found myself overloaded by either film. Reloaded was a popcorn flick with a nice side of philosophy, and Revolutions is akin to the video game The Lord of the Rings: The Third Age - I might see the characters I like from time to time, and boy, is it pretty, but I can't help feel bored and utterly disconnected with everything that's going on.
post #45 of 321
"When all is said and done, looking back, the Zion shit is just intolerable. "
100% agreed. The "Rave" sequnce is just about the silliest thing I have ever seen on film.
That, to me, is when the series jumped the shark.

"Granted, they illustrate a philosphical point, but they serve no purpose in advancing the films. If I wanted "hard" philosophy, I'd read it. "
And brings up what irritates me about the films: They seem specifically designed to appeal to those who want to appear knowledgable about hard philosophy but don't want to go to the trouble and effort of actually doing some serious study about them.


For my money, "Bound" is till the Warchoski's best film.
post #46 of 321
The Dark Shape is fighting the good fight in this thread.
post #47 of 321
...Verily
post #48 of 321
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape
The complaining doesn't stem from seeing the city itself, it's that we spend 45 minutes there and learn nothing about it and are given no reason as to why we should care for these people. That's why the Battle of Zion is so utterly dull - it's not played as an entertaining action sequence, but as something where we should really be hoping for the survival of these people (a la Helm's Deep in The Two Towers), and yet we couldn't give two shits about them.
But why is that? In TTT we see cliched scenes of a kid worried about the battle, people looking scared, kids looking cute, the realisation that if they lose then its the end. And before the Zion battle its exactly the same thing, so I've never really understood why people didnt give a shit about the Zion folk.

And I dont agree that we dont learn anything about the city. We learn there's 250,000 people living there, its underground, there's a council, a protective dock, hovercrafts, there's a temple for raving (whats with the hate, you aint never danced before?) and public announcements, there's an engineering section that is really effecient (first big clue the machines had a hand in the creation of Zion), and a whole bunch of other stuff, I mean what else do you need to know?

We should care for these people because they're people, and we know what sentinels are like, so we know the odds of them surviving are close to nil. Why didnt some viewers care for them? And you cant say because they werent developed. The main characters in both franchises were developed, and the cannon fodder for both wasnt, the only thing I can think of that differentiates them and gives viewers an excuse to care for one group, and not care for another is location and setting. One group is ye olde type people in a fantasy setting, the other is a bunch of cyberpunk cave dwellers in the future. Maybe its just down to personal preference, maybe its easier to feel sorry for pathetic white villagers than strong ethnically diverse Zionites. Maybe Link and his family were annoying, but Gamling was lovable. Maybe swords are cooler than EMP guns. I dunno.
post #49 of 321
It's not merely the shots of children and women looking (which, though cliched, were extremely effective). It's that, while we were in Rohan, we came to like the people. Theoden's a great, tragic figure. Eowyn is a well-layered character. They've been betrayed by someone they thought close, so that automatically helps the endearment. But for whatever reason, during the siege at Helm's Deep, I wanted these people to survive.

With Zion, we're introduced to a Council of Elders with less personality than Ki-Adi-Mundi. We have Commander Locke, who exists for no other reason than to tell Morpheus he's a moron (for somewhere from twenty minutes to an hour - I lost count over both sequels). We see Link's wife, who's given all of two painfully slow scenes. And we're supposed to care?

Truly hilarious is the Vasquez wannabe, who hasn't even been given an introductory scene until the machines break into Zion, and then we're supposed to feel some kind of remorse when she's torn to pieces.

The true failing of it is, if we'd never seen Zion in Reloaded or the early portions of Revolutions, and our first glimpse is when the Sentinels break through that dome and assault the city, I probably would've cared more than I actually did, because while I still wouldn't have known anything about these people, they at least wouldn't strike me as bland and unlikeable.
post #50 of 321
These are truly great and inspiring films, and I look forward to them becoming more respected over time.
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