Elitism - Page 6

And that, Diva, is why people talk down to you.

But Diva, everyone OBVIOUSLY cares about who's right and who's wrong or else they wouldn't talk about it in the first place. Everyone would agree to disagree and this message board would suddenly be of very little use.

All valid points, Matt. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.

On the flip side, what's the motivation to listen to what is being said if the person is not treating you respectfully. I've said over and over again in this thread, its not the message of saying you don't get something as much is it is the way it is said. Your recent post illustrates that. I understand where you are coming from and will take your points into consideration.

Dialouge isn't about changing people's minds. It can result in that. But for me the purpose is to exchange ideas and to hear other points of view without passing judgement.

Because, you brainless tit, the vast majority of us are here because we love movies. Not because we kind of like them. Not because we watch movies but don't really form opinions on them. We love movies. We write scripts, we go to film school, we own thousands of dollars worth of DVDs, we make an effort to track down rare and recommended flicks, and we spend countless hours discussing, dissecting and debating the finer points of all the films we love.

And so when someone comes stomping along and basically says something like "Battle Royale was a crappy action movie," it annoys people here. Not because they're elitists, but because they have a passion for films that you obviously don't share. Because when you see something that means a lot to you being insulted or misinterpreted, you want to stand up for that thing.

Seriously, why is this so hard for you to grasp? I

For the record, this is what I was responding to. Quit editing your posts to make your arguments seem smarter. That's such a lazy way to debate.

I'd like to say that all people have to judge others on here is opinions. That's it. You are judged by what you think. Because that's all anyone here can know about you.

So, tonight I was at Starbucks with some friends, and they had a live jazz band of college kids there. Needless to say, the jazz they played was...not good. In fact, it was downright bad. And as I sat there, and I listened to the music, it dawned on me that not only did I know it was bad, but I knew why--there was no pattern to it, it was attempting to be improvisational but it felt very stilted, they were playing far too fast for the style of music they were trying to play...I could go on.

Anyway, I was talking to my friends about it, and I realized that when it comes to jazz, I'm kind of an elitist. Not because I know an enormous amount about jazz, or because I think I'm better than the people who were applauding these guys at Starbucks, but because I've got enough knowledge to not only know what bad jazz is, but why it is bad.

And I know it's late and I know that story's lame, but it made me kind of think about this thread. I agree with a lot of the comments on both sides, and I've been handed my ass by a lot of the more knowledgable people on this site, and it's made me want to go out and learn more about film, literature, music, et al...

...but I think that if you're going to talk about being an elitist, it's not if someone can tell you if something is good or bad. It's if they can tell you the why, beyond "it didn't make any sense."

This didn't make any sense, did it?

Fuck's sake, man, stop with the Bukakke Bob. I mostly just stick to reading the decent posts on these forums, but ever since that sodding sex forum thread that fucker Bukakke Bob has started to post all over the shop. You inspired him to do it! Now he's on some sort of crusade to prove himself as a good poster! He's all over the Political forum. He got going in the Religious one too, it's just embarrassing. Bukakke Bob could have been confined to the sex folder, but some people couldn't leave that strange place alone. Now he's spreading like wildfire.

Interestingly enough, the Bukakke Bob phenomenon shows the downside of elitism. The elites become disconnected and unable to influence the masses. Instead of improving the outlook of these lesser beings, or at the very least restricting them, the elites create conflict and resentment. Thus, instead of keeping Bukkake Bob where he is, or prompting him into an improvement in his posting, you merely exacerbate the problem. And get 350+ post threads of people moaning about the nasty elitists. The eventual outcome will be the discrediting of the elites, no matter how valid their opinions may be.

I think what Diva is saying is that there is a difference in being knowledgable and being elitist. One can be knowledgable about something and not be an elitist by being kind and compassionate to others not as 'in on' on the subject matter. If you're going to be a complete dick about your superior intellect, then that would make you an elitist in my book.

I can understand wanting to weed out the morons on here, and I'm sure many people believe I'm one of them. But damn, everyone's allowed an opinion, you just don't have be a flaming asshole about it.

That, friends, is gold.

But of course, it's aimed at someone else, so you would be in agreement.

Another thought, all these elitist opinions: they're just opinions. Two possible options as I see it: a) they don't matter or are as meaningless as the comments they meanly respond to. Or b) the respondee is just as entitled to them as you are to the comment they respond to.

Either way...I don't see the argument.

That's your own interpretation of the issue. Diva has said nothing of the sort. She's been talking about meanness, not knowledge (which definitely would have been the argument that made more sense).

Diva, I hope you know because of what you said in this thread THE NEXT TIME you say something halfway mean, you're gonna get your ass handed to you. Cause you've set yourself up as being pious.

I think it's more damning that she admits to not really caring which side is right or wrong when it comes to arguments about movies. Good luck being taken seriously in any film discussion after that.

That though was a week ago, and Diva has since learned the error of her ways and would never post something hurtful again.

Or she feels picked on and wants to turn it into a grander issue of "meanness" and"elitism."

If i may be allowed to put words in Diva's mouth?
Thank you.

Maybe she means that what interests her is people expressing their genuine feelings about a film, rather than who wins or loses the argument. She thinks the worth of a thread is the expression of ideas, not the silencing of opposition.

I think her position can be unfairly characterised as touchy-feely, let's-not-offend-anyone sharing.
I think yours can be unfairly characterised as all discussion being combative - where the only thing that matters is beating the opponent.

I do not believe either is particularly valid.

I edited less than 30 seconds after I posted because I didn't really want to get into another debate . It has nothing to do with wanting to seem smarter. But thanks for proving my point about how much you care about seeming smarter compared to others.

You really are just as blinded by your hatred as you claim that I supposedly am. My entire argument has been its fine to be more knowledgeable than someone as long as you don't use that as an excuse to treat other people like shit.

Thanks for articulating my thoughts (though slater will claim that's not what I was actually trying to say). In anycase, I'm done with this thread. It's clear nothing will be accomplished, and quite honestly, I can't be bothered to reply anymore.

So idiotic opinions don't deserve abuse? And let me spell out hypocrisy even clearer- EXACTLY LIKE YOU DID IN THE THREAD YOU STARTED A WEEK AGO?

Once you hit that Post button, anyting you say is fair game. I'm just glad I quoted you before you edited, because I think your genuine bafflement at why people here love movies, why they get passionate and defensive about them...well, I think that says more about the truth behind this entire fight than anything else.

My lost post in here.

Are you fucking blind? Where did I say I was baffled by people's love of movies? I'm baffled why you (or anyone really) need to smack people down if they don't understand something or don't share your love of a film. If you truly loved film, one would assume you'd want everyone to experience those same feelings. Calling someone stupid does not foster understanding for the film nor does it make the person you are supposedly trying to enlighten want to listen to what you have to say. When Nick writes an editorial on Ocean's 12, for example, he expresses bafflement and a little sadness that more people don't share his love of the film. But instead of saying, "I get it and you don't", he outlines reasons why he thinks the film is great and encourages people to give it another chance. If you were the exemplar of people who love movies, then I wouldn't want to be part of that group. Fortunately for me, you're not.

How did Diva find her way to CHUD, anyway? Did Devin bring her?

We all pass judgement, Deev. We may not carry out an execution, but we judge someone based on how they present themselves and we should. Dialogue doesn't have to change people's minds, but I feel that if you can't be passionate about your arguments, then there's not much point in bringing them up in the first place. Sometimes you can get frustrated and just walk away, but at least the argument built to a point where the intensity was strong enough for one person to sever the debate before things got really ugly.

And when it comes to movies, some people on a movie message boards are going to get intense, and well they should. Honestly, what is art without passion? How can you do honor to art without passion?

Diva, why do assume that it's somehow the responsibility or duty of "the elitists" to teach stupid people about movies? This isn't the fucking Jedi Academy. You seem to be operating under the mistaken assumption that the "elitists" are trying to help you appreciate film and failing because of their rudeness, when most of them are likely just trying to make you stop talking out of your ass.

While I don't think "the elitists" have a responsibility to teach other people about movies, I do think that it would be better for them to share there knowledge rather than to safeguard it as if it were something too precious to give out to others.

Who's safeguarding information, though? I've never seen Dre or Strax or Khitch or Devin or anybody else refuse to answer any question about film that was put to them. Most of the "elitists" seem more than happy to set the record straight or fill in the blanks in most discussions. The problems come when you get threads like the aforementioned Ferris Bueller thing, where fucking idiots start screaming and crying that the smart people are taking movies too seriously, or when people like Jaimepoole go ballistic when reviewers won't cut Terminator 3 narrative slack just because it has a cool car chase. That kind of reaction is a lot more damaging to these boards than when people gang up to make fun of guy who calls Sideways "bloated and boring" or whatever.

Anyone who disagrees with you, devincf, agrees with Don-Murphy.

Let's try this pointlessly semantic distinction:

Opinions are un-thought out, knee jerk things. On the grand scale of human communication they are at the shallowest end. Everyone has them, but precious little discussion can happen on the back of them beyond:

"I Liked it."
"I didn't."
"Well fuck you."
"Well fuck you back."

Without thinking through why you have that opinion, it is of little use (very much like that guy who just dismissed 'Sideways' as boring). opinions can't be argued with, as they have almost no content.

Thinking things through allows for more depth, allows for discussion, creates a viewpoint that (whether you agree with it or not) can be argued constructively with.

Here's the point of this semantic distinction: plenty of threads don't get past simple opinion hurling, but if you simply dismiss it with a one line put down then you are only giving another baseless opinion of your own. You are playing their game, and nothing useful is said. You are only communicating on that surface, shallow and rather pointless level that you yourself would reject.

So don't play their game. Ignore them, or tell them exactly how their opinions are ill-formed.

And, to throw my hat in the ring, Battle Royale is not just an action movie.

And i am trying to posit a difference between thought out and un-thought out reactions. The usual repsonse of 'opinions are like assholes' made me define 'opinion' as the un-thought out reaction. it is the lumping of all reactions under one misleading word that might be causing some of the diasgreement.

And there's nothing more boring that interacting with someone who's stupidly aggressive, if you want to play that game.

TG's turning into The Sphinx.

The elitism that I tend to see on these boards, and can't stand, is usually of the following:

My opinion is more valid because I've seen this movie and you haven't
My opinion is more valid because I haven't seen that movie and you have
My opinion is more valid because I see more (foreign, independent, etc) movies than you
My opinion is more valid because I have a higher post count/been around longer
My opinion is more valid because I can easily inject witty, obscure references into my posts
My opinion is more valid because I'm older
My opinion is more valid because my DVD collection is bigger/more diverse
My opinion is more valid because I can spell

To me, none of these reasons (except maybe the last one) are good enough to warrant any form of personal attack or condescension. I will agree that simply posting "I hated this movie cause it sucked" without any support or follow though is not a good enough opinion to have, at least not on these boards. And along with this, there seems to be too much of a tendency for people to conveniently group those who disagree with their superior opinion into a lesser camp.

Reading this thread, which is so clearly not about the orginal post, makes me wonder why you all are responding to Diva. Why do you care?

This is an honest question. Well if a question can be honest that is...