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The Fading Greats: George Lucas and My Theories of Everything

post #1 of 33
Thread Starter 
Obviously there’s been a raging if not volatile debate since the release of The Phantom Menace on the merits of the PT, how it stands up to the OT and so on and so forth. The debate will probably never end and representatives from both sides of the fence will declare their opinions as gospel etc…

I believe that the weakness of the Prequel Trilogy [or dualogy if I can invent a word] has nothing to do with the story or the actors. It all boils down to one man, and that man is George Lucas.

I’ve written about this before but I thought the time was ripe for another mini-article on the topic.

I’ve never had an issue with the story of The Phantom Menace or Attack of the Clones. My problem is the execution of these films. It all boils down to perspective [point of view – more on that later]. The George Lucas today who’s writing these new Star Wars films is not the blue collar George Lucas of 1976-1983 who worked himself into the ground. GL wasn’t a rich billionaire, ILM wasn’t the established effects and post house it is today.

Basically, George Lucas’s lifestyle today is night and day from what it used to be. 25 years ago George knew what it was like to work with the everyman, try and make your art and pay your bills etc.. Even with the success of American Graffiti George still wasn’t his own man, he was owned and operated by the studio. A New Hope was a real struggle for George, creatively, financially, in almost every way. I believe that A New Hope was alive with wit and a dash of realism because that reflected George’s demeanor and life. I believe that the poor, or the working class [albeit filmmakers, prosecutors, retail workers, etc…] have a better grip on the reality of life than the rich. The rich have their toys and their general ease in which they live their lives but ultimately many of them lose grasp on reality and real people and how they interact and how to interact with them. [Barbra Striesand has to have her linens in her hotel room match her flowers outside her room for goodness sakes]

I’ve noticed that artists who’ve become wealthy tend to lose their ability to connect to their art, or make art that connects with the everyman / woman. As I watch the films of Steven Spielberg, Martin Scorsese, George Lucas [obviously], Francis Ford Coppola and others I witness a real trend in the films that they produce.

I grew up on Spielberg, his films inspired me to become a filmmaker and writer in my own right. I watch Spielberg’s films today and I find it very difficult for me to connect with them. They look great but they’re overly sentimental and not challenging creatively. I believe that Spielberg had the ability [in his younger days] to make actual art house films and summer blockbuster movies. Today it appears that he can only make big summer films. The saying is true, “your art reflects your life.” If your life is filled with private jets, staying away from the everyman [i.e. people who make less that 100,000 a year] than your reality shifts.

George Lucas has become a man who only sees through 24k gold lenses. He hires nannys to help him raise his children and other people to do his every bidding. To me, that’s not the recipe for an artist that has the ability to connect with people like you and me who still have to drive ourselves to work, raise our children by ourselves, stretch our own canvasses and make our lives and art from the sweat of brows.

This may sound like an absolute diss on GL for the fortune he has made. Not at all, more power to him. Certainly the box office results from TPM and AOTC have only made GL richer, again more power to him. But with that kind of success comes criticism.

The reason the prequel trilogy is the way it is [thus far, ROTS is the final thermometer] is because GL is the way he is today. I’ve come to believe that GL can’t quite understand the criticism he receives. He cannot grasp or comprehende it. No doubt the OT received criticism when it premiered, and with the final release of Return of the Jedi it was clear where things were headed.

Case in point for me is the relationship between Anakin and his mother Shmi in The Phantom Menace. I know I’m not alone in realizing how one dimensional their relationship was. At every turn Shmi had the perfect thing to say “Oh look, now you can make your dreams come true” “Oh that’s so very wonderful Annie” “I’m so very proud of you” “But you can’t stop the change.” Nearly every word from Shmi’s mouth was stilted and contrived. Do you wonder why? I don’t, I know why; it’s because George doesn’t know how mothers and children interact on a daily basis. He’s raised his children as a single father and fathers are drastically different from mothers in how they raise their children.

Continuing….

George is writing a new trilogy of films that basically revolve around the interaction of different classes of people. The Jedi are the UN of their day [with a bit more spirituality and a lot more force excuse the pun], Amidala, part of a government, and so on and so forth. The biggest sub plot is a love story. George hasn’t been married in nearly 20 years, and then he had a falling out with Linda Ronstadt a few years later. George has an idea of what being in love is but not a current reality of what being in love is. Every single over the top word that Anakin says to Padme in AOTC comes off ridiculous because people in love might feel that way but rarely do they talk that way. In the old serials that kind of way of talking may have worked but the movies were already bubblegum so that kind of language wasn’t anything worth mentioning. In 2005, that language doesn’t work. Not only doesn’t it work, it’s awful and no one gets it. Star Wars may be fun, even popcorn fare but bubblegum the films are not.

In Return of the Jedi Obi-wan talked about “a certain point of view” and that’s the nail on the head as far as I’m concerned where the prequels are concerned. George Lucas has decided to tell the story of the origins and rise and fall of Anakin from his point of view. The point of view of a billionaire who can do anything he wants to, whenever he wants to, by whatever means he wants to. Probably the biggest factor in the failure in some respects of the prequel trilogy to capture the imagination and excitement of fans is George’s rustiness. George hasn’t worked with actors in a long time, much less everyday people. The cardboard performances from some of the actors is, in my opinion just as much George’s fault as it is the fault of the performer. They give him the performance and he decides whether or not to write off on those performances. At the end of the day everything still boils down to interacting with people. Natalie Portman might be a successful actor but a billionaire she isn’t. Neither is Liam Neeson, Jake Lloyd, Ahmed Best, and so on. Many of those actors are blue collar real people. George doesn’t know very many real people and the end product of that limited knowledge has birthed itself on the screen.

What the prequels have going for themselves is a visual texture unlike any other films. On a visual level George hits it out of the park every time. Unfortunately Star Wars isn’t a story about a great looking blue sky, or a comped in CGI creature. Star Wars is about real people expressing real emotions going through real traumas. George said on a commentary that he wants to tell his stories visually as opposed to literally. I just don’t believe that can work. In a film like The Three Colors : Bleu telling a visual story is possible when they are real people to look at, real sets etc… When you tell a story in a far off land about people who deal with 2005 problems, visual storytelling only extends itself so far.

I’ll end this longwinded little essay with this. I love what George Lucas has done for filmmaking, pushing digital cinema, state of the art effects, etc… He’s been a godsend in that respect. I don’t believe George is a great artist, I don’t believe he is a good artist. I believe George is a craftsman, a master craftsmen who makes visual porches and patios [great vistas, spaceships, CGI sets] but he’s not a good storyteller and never really has been. I don’t fault George for where he’s at, but I also don’t expect someone who makes more money in 5 minutes than I do in 5 years to ever be able to have his art connect with my life.

J.M. Prater
post #2 of 33
I'm not sure what point you're trying to prove, we all know GL is insanely rich and the failure of the prequels has been discussed at length here.

Your statement about the rich having no perception of reality is kind of a generalization, like the working class somehow have a better handle on things. Do you mix in the same circles as GL? I understand your intent about how GL is operating and it's affecting the quality of these movies, I actually loved AOTC but that's not the point.
post #3 of 33
So Prater, you don't like A NEW HOPE?
post #4 of 33
As far as the PT goes, I actually agree with you on most of your points.

It's some of the the personal GL stuff that I disagree with. It sounds like most of the issues you have with GL's success come from your own insecurity. I've no problem with people giving their opinions on this board (that's what it's here for). However, when you start making pronouncements about things that you obviously know nothing about (especially in someone's personal life) - that's when the problems start.

Case in point:

Quote:
George Lucas has become a man who only sees through 24k gold lenses. He hires nannys to help him raise his children and other people to do his every bidding. To me, that’s not the recipe for an artist that has the ability to connect with people like you and me who still have to drive ourselves to work, raise our children by ourselves, stretch our own canvasses and make our lives and art from the sweat of brows.
Well, this is an outright lie. How do I know? The producer of my current project used to live in Marin; his son and daughter attended pre and middle school with Lucas' two youngest kids. He said that Lucas was actually one of the few parents who actually drove his kids to school and picked them up just about every day.

Also, you've got it ass backwards, J.M., Spielberg is the one with all the nannies and assistants, not Lucas.

But let's say I didn't know this personally. All you have to do is look at the 60 MINUTES profile they did on GL in 1999, countless interviews, or the 2002 Time magazine SW article:

TIME: You seem to be awfully laid back for someone who's responsible for making $100 million dollar movies. Doesn't all the pressure of writing/directing and the negative reviews ever get you frustrated?

LUCAS (laughs): No, trying to raise my kids makes me frustrated.

He then goes on to explain how he feels bad due to the fact that his kids don't have a mother but have a father who's more famous than most. He says he tries to compensate for that, not by spoiling them, but by being a good parent.

One of the main reasons the new SW trilogy took so long (besides waiting for the CG technology to improve) was that GL wanted to spend time raising his family. It's also the main reason why GL doesn't live here in Hollywood -- he doesn't want his kids tainted by it. And (having lived and worked here for years) I can't say that I blame him. I will agree that having kids has changed GL. He wouldn't be human if it didn't.

But your rant sounds suspiciously like sour grapes. You remind me of all the people who accussed Bruce Springsteen of selling out because he moved to LA in the 90's for a few years.

I'm not trying to be condescending, J.M., but it's pretty easy to pronounce judgement on people when you're going through your "I'm an Angry Young Man Who's Going To Challenge Hollywood Phase." I think a lot of filmmakers/screenwriters do. I know I did. But when you've actually worked in the business (and by worked I mean dealt with the daily pressures of pre and post production, rewrite deadlines, set ego battles, WGA arbitration, running a production company, agents, managers, etc.) you'll find out it's a whole different ballgame.

Has Lucas lost touch? Obviously the PT is different from the OT because he's different. He's gotten older, is raising kids, running an empire. But saying Lucas's art can't connect with you "because he makes more money in 5 minutes than you do in 5 years" is just assinine. Most of Lucas's money has been poured right back into his companies. He clearly stated on Charlie Rose that he really didn't start to make huge profits until right before Phantom Menace due to his divorce and the companies. Bitch about his movies all you want, but the man earned his scratch through blood, sweat, and tears. One thing that's come through in all the documentaries I've seen on the PT is how hard Lucas works. And that's just on the movies! Anyone who's worked in film can tell you how exhausting (esecially writing/directing a film) that business is. That doesn't count his board meetings, company interaction, etc. I think I read that basically the only time GL takes a vacation is the month after the film is released. Then it's right back to work on the next one. Yeah, 10 years of nearly nonstop work on SW and raising three kids and overseeing his 5 companies -- there's just no way George lucas could relate to some one who works for a living!

IMHO, your "they're rich, so they aren't human/can't relate to the common folk" blanket judgement of Lucas is ridiculous. Everyone has people in Hollywood they don't respect or despise (don't even get me started on my list). I just think you're picking the wrong target for inconsistent reasons.
post #5 of 33
Wow, Kreeper. Very nice post.
post #6 of 33
I'll second that.
post #7 of 33
Praeter, you just got served.
post #8 of 33
People still stretch their own canvases?
post #9 of 33
Prater's post wasn't that bad. It takes one theory way too far.
Film-makers change and so their films change.

It can be a good thing or a bad thing. But either way it is inevitable and normal.

Certainly a film-maker can lose touch with the fans of his earlier films, but does that mean he has 'lost it' period? or rather that he is simply doing different things that would appeal to different people?
A young man may not care about family drama and remove it from his films, an older man may focus on it. is that losing it or just developing?

So it's an absolutely valid point that a person's life will affect the films they make and maybe even that space ships and laser beams are best left to the young men.
what is not valid is to then take the theory to the extreme of saying that everything that is bad about the prequels can be traced directly back to Lucas selling his soul to the money devil. that just sounds like a personally-motivated attack. at the very least it sounds ike an undegrad's paper where they pump up all the arguments they have regardless of their actual strength in the hope that it will make their paper carry more weight. sorry. that's how it comes over.

Kreeper's post is pretty good, though he should be careful about criticising thouse who would attack film-makers' personal lives, and then attacking Steven Spielberg's personal life.
post #10 of 33
Didn't lucas say that the reason why he took such time off was to raise his kids? does not sound like a man that has an army of nannys to me..and if you want to hit that andle he could have just had his ex wife take the kids, but he kept them.
post #11 of 33
Thread Starter 

VolleyBall

So I got served? I didn't realize this was a volleyball match. I also don't appreciate the fact the a small portion of what I wrote is a lie. Lies are intentional, lies are malicious in nature. I did not lie, I just did not realize the actual truth. It's one thing to say "hey buddy, I think you're wrong there for this and this reason." It's another thing to be told that you're lying. This is the internet and I can't forget that. I keep forgetting that for many people, this isn't about discussion, it's a pissing contest.

Let's back it up a bit. First of all, Lucas HAS in the past had assistants and has hired nannys on occasions, but I'm pushing beyond my point. What I wrote isn't about Lucas's personal life. I don't care about his personal life per se. What I do care about is understanding why his first two films didn't connect on a human level with a lot of people besides the initial 'wow' factor of actually watching a new Star Wars film. My point in all of this is to say that I believe that Lucas's life is soo different now that he couldn't possibly deliver the kind of script and reality he delivered with A New Hope etc...

Let me also say this again, our life is a reflection of our art. When we live the life of a billionaire, and the most difficult tasks in our day is okaying budgets attending board meetings and that sort of thing, well, it makes for a different reality. I also want to correct what KEEPER said about me going through the "I'm an Angry Young Man Who's Going To Challenge Hollywood Phase." That's not true. KEEPER, you accuse me of telling a lie and then you presuppose what I may or may not be going through. At this point I could say "I don't owe you an explanation" but I will because, well, I want to defend myself and I think I have that right.

I love Hollywood, I've loved many of the great films that machine has produced. Yes, I'm an independent writer / filmmaker but I've also been working "in the business" for a while. I've had to meet deadlines, put in long hours, deal with people who can't make creative decisions and so on. I haven't been doing this for 15 years but I have been doing it long enough to realize how it works. Again, please don't assume you know what I've gone through or what I haven't gone through. This topic wasn't intended to be a dig on Lucas's personal life, not at all. I wanted to discuss and interject my reasonings for why we have two films that for the most part cannot connect to an audience in a human way.

As aforementioned, my idea is that George lives the kind of lifestyle that doesn't lend itself to connective creativity. I'm sure many of you have seen the Yoda documentary on the AOTC DVD. There's a part when Rob Coleman introduces George to an animator who's been working on a part of Yoda. There's a lot to be said for that little bit of stilted interaction between mogul and the meek.

I will say finally that I should have positioned the entire initial post in this topic as conjecture and opinion, not fact. I will apologize for the gross error in fact. I believe however that the proof is in the pudding.

J.M. Prater
post #12 of 33
My friend used to discuss this theory (albeit a much simpler version of it) with me in class. He called it simply "The Starving Artist" theory. I know Lucas wasn't exactly starving when he made A New Hope, and he isn't the richest man on Earth now, but I think that yes, money and fame do affect one's perspective. I don't know any details about George Lucas' personal life, and I know that this theory doesn't hold up with every artist/musician/director that has earned money, but I do think it is a point worth considering with George Lucas.
post #13 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trinity'sGusset
Kreeper's post is pretty good, though he should be careful about criticising thouse who would attack film-makers' personal lives, and then attacking Steven Spielberg's personal life.
How did I attack Spielberg? All I said was that he was the one with all the assistants, not Lucas. It's pretty common knowlege in LA. I never said that having nannies was bad -- that was Prater. Spielberg has 6 kids; I'd hope he has some help...

I was just pointing out J.M.'s assertion was wrong because he mentioned Spielberg in his original diatribe.
post #14 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER
Let's back it up a bit. First of all, Lucas HAS in the past had assistants and has hired nannys on occasions, but I'm pushing beyond my point. What I wrote isn't about Lucas's personal life. I don't care about his personal life per se. What I do care about is understanding why his first two films didn't connect on a human level with a lot of people besides the initial 'wow' factor of actually watching a new Star Wars film. My point in all of this is to say that I believe that Lucas's life is soo different now that he couldn't possibly deliver the kind of script and reality he delivered with A New Hope etc...

Let me also say this again, our life is a reflection of our art. When we live the life of a billionaire, and the most difficult tasks in our day is okaying budgets attending board meetings and that sort of thing, well, it makes for a different reality. I also want to correct what KEEPER said about me going through the "I'm an Angry Young Man Who's Going To Challenge Hollywood Phase." That's not true. KEEPER, you accuse me of telling a lie and then you presuppose what I may or may not be going through. At this point I could say "I don't owe you an explanation" but I will because, well, I want to defend myself and I think I have that right.

I love Hollywood, I've loved many of the great films that machine has produced. Yes, I'm an independent writer / filmmaker but I've also been working "in the business" for a while. I've had to meet deadlines, put in long hours, deal with people who can't make creative decisions and so on. I haven't been doing this for 15 years but I have been doing it long enough to realize how it works. Again, please don't assume you know what I've gone through or what I haven't gone through. This topic wasn't intended to be a dig on Lucas's personal life, not at all. I wanted to discuss and interject my reasonings for why we have two films that for the most part cannot connect to an audience in a human way.

As aforementioned, my idea is that George lives the kind of lifestyle that doesn't lend itself to connective creativity. I'm sure many of you have seen the Yoda documentary on the AOTC DVD. There's a part when Rob Coleman introduces George to an animator who's been working on a part of Yoda. There's a lot to be said for that little bit of stilted interaction between mogul and the meek.

I will say finally that I should have positioned the entire initial post in this topic as conjecture and opinion, not fact. I will apologize for the gross error in fact. I believe however that the proof is in the pudding.

J.M. Prater
J.M., I realize that your post is an opinion and that you weren't trying to deliberately mislead anyone with your statement about Lucas. If that's what my reply insinuated, then I apologize. That was not my intent. I understand what you were trying to say about the first two PT films not being able to connect with some people in the same way the OT did. My problem is that it devolved into an attack on GL's personal life based on false assumptions on your part. I think you also did it in your reply.

You're above 2nd quote about GL's assistants and nannies is prime example. Sorry, J.M., but that is personal business. If you're as familiar with Hollywood as you say you are, then I defy you to name me any 5 DGA members who don't have an assistant. It's practically a requirement in that position. So I guess that every filmmaker who has an assistant or nanny has lost touch with reality, huh? That may not be what you're saying, but that's how it's coming off. If that's your opinion, well, you're definitely welcome to it.

As far as your assertion regarding the Lucas and Coleman snippet on the DVD, I've seen it. Again, I submit that since George Lucas is trying to bring his vision to the screen (while paying for it out of his own pocket), yeah, he has every right to be a bit demanding to his employees. You say you're an independent filmmaker. Well, if you've ever had to preside over a prouction crew, why is Lucas slight frustration at Coleman so shocking? The only thing I saw in that segment was a director who was slightly frustrated in trying to get his ideas across to an animator -- not someone who mistreated an employee. I'm neither applauding GL's behavior nor am I saying it's unwarranted. Just ask any of your industry peers who've worked with various directors, A.D.'s, producers, etc., and they'll tell you that what you saw on the DVD is nothing compared to what most of Hollywood can be like. Try working for Joel Silver, David Fincher, James Cameron, Robert Altman, Michael Bay, etc., and then I'd think you would have a point regarding "stilted" behavior.

BTW, Rob Coleman is hardly "meek". Due to his salary and Lucas sharing the profits, he and John Knolls each clear just under seven figures after every SW film is released. Hell, I know a guy at ILM who's just a lowly Match Mover, and his profits earned him an equivalent to his whole annual salary (which is pretty damned good). He could also tell you a story or two about how Coleman treats his underlings. So I think Coleman can take a little pressure from his boss (which, again, I think you're blowing way out of proportion). Like I said before, J.M., it's a matter of perspective.

Here's a little known fact. Everyone who works for Steven Spielberg from the producers down to the lowliest PA is required to sign a very strict Nondisclosure Agreement. Ever hear anything bad about him on a set? No? I wonder why. I commend GL for having the balls to show that he's not perfect, and showing SWfans that everything isn't wine and roses in filmmaking (unlike most DVD "documentaries" or "EPK's").

J.M., I think you've made some excellent points regarding the PT's first two movies, GL's possible disconnect and the Spielberg stuff. I actually think I agree with you more on the PT films than I do with most people.! It's just that when you take something trivial like the Coleman incident and then restate the insignificant fact that Lucas has used an assistant/nanny like we're supposed to be shocked, it does seem like your posts are personal. That's all I'm saying.
post #15 of 33
That was deep, J.M. The force is definitly strong with in you.
post #16 of 33
Thread Starter 

One More Thing

As for the Rob Coleman bit, if you remember correctly, the scene was this... Rob Coleman introduced George to a young animator whom George had never met before. George hardly said hello or paid attention to him. Again, I name specifics but this isn't about specifics, this is about the overall.

I don't judge George or Spielberg or anybody for hiring and keeping assistants or nannies, Kreeper misunderstands. My point in mentioning all of that is the more people you hire to help you live your life, the more disconnected from reality you become, and that affects your art which in turn affects the way people connect to your art. This isn't about assistants and nannies, this is about connecting to people.

J.M. Prater
post #17 of 33
Wow. Here's a theory.

"You get old, and then you can't hack it. That's it." --sick boy, Trainspotting.

Trying to psychologically profile a guy you've never met , over the internet, based on stories, only lends to a kind of projection exercise, where soap-opera style plotlines and motivations are typically used to plug all the holes in the prognosticator's knowledge of the aforementioned man he's never met, been around, talked to, or known.

There'd have to be a LOT more interaction with people who interact with this guy before you could start to effectively paint a semi-accurate picture. As it is, this stinks of presupposing a conclusion, and then working backwards to try and make any possible details fit

If I had to choose between that and sick boy's analysis, I'm taking sick boy's.
post #18 of 33
I haven't felt that good since Archie Gemmill scored against Holland in 1978.
post #19 of 33
Thread Starter 

?

"Did I.Q.s just drop sharply while I was away?"

"Theories" not fact no matter how much like fact I want them to be. I can only pre-suppose.
post #20 of 33
I've seen a lotta prequel bashing... I've seen people get frustrated with Lucas... I've seen people swear at Lucas...

...but I don't think I've seen actual attacks on his personal character and his social lifestyle. I think that carries it a bit too far when you try to lay blame on the quality of an artistic project by contriving generalizations and assumptions about people in a particular income bracket.

For the first time, I felt PERSONALLY offended at a basher's comments -- as if being rich is somehow a handicap to living and FUNCTIONING properly in everything you do (i.e. making movies).


Granted the tone and quality of the PT is different from the OT, but I do not think you can place blame on money as the source of all "evil" in this.

Who are we to assume Lucas has lost his touch on reality? Anyone who believes they are qualified to make such judgments are the worst kinds of elitists.... worse than Lucas.
post #21 of 33
Quote:
"Did I.Q.s just drop sharply while I was away?"
Yeah. I'm stupid. That's it.

Anyway, no. Yuu don't HAVE to pre-suppose and then work backwards. You can look at what's there and then try to come to a conclusion BASED on that. That's actually the more logical, and typically used, method of deduction and guesswork. What you seem to be doing is starting with your conclusion and then combing whatever details you can out of various stories and biographical anecdotes to support that conclusion.

So you basically kneecapped yourself before you even started word one of your 5000 word thesis.
post #22 of 33
To the prequal haters:

1.Give your TPM and AOTC DVDs to your local library.
2. Stay out of the line for ROTS. Go see something else.

People keep saying "I hope George gets this one right". These are Lucas' stories to tell as he sees fit. So he got all three "right".

Why can't people say- "Wow is that how Anakin became Darth Vader? Cool. Thanks Mr. Lucas."
post #23 of 33
because some people didn't think it was cool. They can say that. The fact these are Lucas' stories doesn't invalidate the opinions of the people who speak about them. As a matter of fact, one really doesn't have anything to do with the other. Ideally, I'd think the responses would be more pure if people didn't even know who did the work, so that extra baggage wouldn't be weighed.

Of course, at this point in time, people love to review the baggage almost as much as the art anymore. They've even gone so far as to say the baggage IS part of the art. And sure, the baggage does inform the art--but it's NOT the art, and I'm not so sure it should become part of the review in that instance.

I'm kinda branching out into some other weird topic, so I'll kill that one there. But basically, people shouldn't be asked or expected to say "Thank you, Mr. Lucas" especially if what they saw they didn't particularly like. And even if they did, it still seems sort of weird.

But there really isn't a "Prequel Haters" gang as far as I can see. It's not like they get mixed in, flash signs and crip walk over good reviews of the Prequels. they're not a faceless group of people. it just so happens there's a fair amount of individuals here who happen to share the same opinion. There's gotta be SOME sort of weight behind the fact so many individuals have come to very similar conclusions about these movies. But we don't need to artificially invent some sort of Fan Caste system and set them at opposites with each other. That doesn't make any sense.

My problem is that Prater's manner of theorizing is backwards, and his thesis (Lucas is rich and has a nanny now) is simplistic crap. All this "Why do people whine about the prequels" stuff is ancillary at best. People whine about the prequels because they were disappointed in them. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be shooed away if they don't want to be. They're still curious and checking this shit out for SOME reason.
post #24 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER
As for the Rob Coleman bit, if you remember correctly, the scene was this... Rob Coleman introduced George to a young animator whom George had never met before. George hardly said hello or paid attention to him.
This is the most important and telling statement in this entire thread and it's the key to understanding why people criticize Lucas and other filmmakers.

It's like looking at a photo of a group of people where one guy isn't smiling and then claiming he's an unhappy person. Based on that one photo where a million different things could have led to that guy not smiling, you rip his fucking life apart.

That Ep.2 documentary is just a collection of footage of the production. It's maybe 1% of what actually when on and because Lucas didn't acknowledge a guy, he's a grumpy out of touch filmmaker. Maybe he was very tired, maybe he HAD met the guy before, maybe he didn't want the guy thinking about anything but the work at hand.

Now there are several valid points that you brought up J.M. and I respect you for starting this discussion. I am also a struggling writer/director who's been in hollywood for 4 years now. I've been homeless, slept in cars, on floors, couches, bathtubs, had an uzi pulled on me, been yelled at, cursed at, told my work was shit, gotten kicked out of film school because I couldn't pay the rest of the tuition, had my fucking life wrecked several times and I am still kicking because I love this shit (not being poor, but film). And I may never be successful. Lucas is where he is because he worked harder than 99% of his peers and had ONE good idea. I used to knock Lucas, but being where I've been now, I only have respect for him.

But I also believe Lucas is just a detatched person in general and always has been. I mean, you don't have to be homeless to know what makes a good story. Lucas is a great idea man, but he needs other people to guide him IMO. He hasn't had that since Empire I don't think. I don't think it has much to do with being rich. I mean, you're personality and how you view life is pretty much set in place by the time you're 25 or so (I just turned 25 and my views are radically different from where they were 5 years ago). I just think you either have the instinct or you don't. You don't need to be Mr. Mom in order to tell the story of a young kid and his mother (which Lucas was any way).
post #25 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy Roberts
But there really isn't a "Prequel Haters" gang as far as I can see. It's not like they get mixed in, flash signs and crip walk over good reviews of the Prequels. they're not a faceless group of people. it just so happens there's a fair amount of individuals here who happen to share the same opinion. There's gotta be SOME sort of weight behind the fact so many individuals have come to very similar conclusions about these movies. But we don't need to artificially invent some sort of Fan Caste system and set them at opposites with each other. That doesn't make any sense.
Oh...

...if only such a thing were true....




post #26 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. Prater
My point in mentioning all of that is the more people you hire to help you live your life, the more disconnected from reality you become, and that affects your art which in turn affects the way people connect to your art.
And you've yet to prove this using anybody in Hollywood as an example, much less George Lucas.

You keep saying things like "this isn't personal" or "this isn't about specifics, assistants, or nannies" but then you contradict yourself by getting personal and mentioning the very same. More and more it seems like you're desperately sifting through the dust for any minute ammo to bash Lucas with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canned Food
...but I don't think I've seen actual attacks on his personal character and his social lifestyle. I think that carries it a bit too far when you try to lay blame on the quality of an artistic project by contriving generalizations and assumptions about people in a particular income bracket. For the first time, I felt PERSONALLY offended at a basher's comments -- as if being rich is somehow a handicap to living and FUNCTIONING properly in everything you do (i.e. making movies).
Which is why I had to respond to what I felt were assumtions based on projection. not experience. But Fatboy put it best as to why, even if the argument is true, a lot of us have a problem with it:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatboy Roberts
Trying to psychologically profile a guy you've never met , over the internet, based on stories, only lends to a kind of projection exercise, where soap-opera style plotlines and motivations are typically used to plug all the holes in the prognosticator's knowledge of the aforementioned man he's never met, been around, talked to, or known.

There'd have to be a LOT more interaction with people who interact with this guy before you could start to effectively paint a semi-accurate picture. As it is, this stinks of presupposing a conclusion, and then working backwards to try and make any possible details fit.
Bingo!

Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. Prater
As for the Rob Coleman bit, if you remember correctly, the scene was this... Rob Coleman introduced George to a young animator whom George had never met before. George hardly said hello or paid attention to him. Again, I name specifics but this isn't about specifics, this is about the overall.
Yes, I remember that scene. Colt 45 puts it more effectively and succinctly than I ever could:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt 45
It's like looking at a photo of a group of people where one guy isn't smiling and then claiming he's an unhappy person. Based on that one photo where a million different things could have led to that guy not smiling, you rip his fucking life apart.

That Ep.2 documentary is just a collection of footage of the production. It's maybe 1% of what actually when on and because Lucas didn't acknowledge a guy, he's a grumpy out of touch filmmaker. Maybe he was very tired, maybe he HAD met the guy before, maybe he didn't want the guy thinking about anything but the work at hand.
Exactly. This is what I was trying to say about the Coleman/Lucas complaint. Colt 45 seems to have an objective/realistic view of the industry and the way it works.

Like I said, J.M., I share a lot of your artistic opinions about the prequels. It's just this other stuff seems with like you're reaching for something that's just not there. Whether we agree or not, I think I've gotten my point across.
post #27 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by J.M. PRATER
As for the Rob Coleman bit, if you remember correctly, the scene was this... Rob Coleman introduced George to a young animator whom George had never met before. George hardly said hello or paid attention to him. Again, I name specifics but this isn't about specifics, this is about the overall.

I don't judge George or Spielberg or anybody for hiring and keeping assistants or nannies, Kreeper misunderstands. My point in mentioning all of that is the more people you hire to help you live your life, the more disconnected from reality you become, and that affects your art which in turn affects the way people connect to your art. This isn't about assistants and nannies, this is about connecting to people.

J.M. Prater
So because George hires lots of people - which is only natural for someone working on a 200 million or so budget movie with tons of special effects - he's more disconnected from reality?

Weird, Peter Jackson didn't have that problem and the LOTR credits are like fifteen minutes long.

Come on man. Throw down your cards. What's your real beef with the man?

J.M. Prater
post #28 of 33
I remember watching some behind the scenes material on the Jurassic Park dvd. It was a roundtable meeting with Spielberg and Tippet and Stan Winston I believe, where they were generating ideas on how the dinosaurs should move/behave, etc.

Spielberg started talking about the Velociraptor I think and mimicked a scary look he wanted the dino to have and then said something to the effect of:

"When people in the audience see that -- it's gonna be like, 'ohhhh shit'."

That was the first time I ever heard Spielberg curse. Everyone curses or has cursed and I knew Spielberg was no exception, but given his candy coated reputation, it was a bit jarring at first.

My point is, I could extrapolate a million different conclusions about Spielberg based on that one moment in the zillions of moments in that man's life...

"Hmmm, he curses. Does he also do drugs? Drink? Beat his wife and kids? Sexually harass his female employees?"

Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't. That's an exaggeration, but speculating about that is similar to what you've been doing J.M., albiet more tame. Pretty silly if you ask me.
post #29 of 33
Thread Starter 
I find this so comical, here here for the internet I suppose.

I don't have a beef with George and believe it or not I wasn't trying to attack him no matter how it seems. I could continue to try and explain myself but as I've noticed, either I'm not doing a good job at it or, well, I'm just not doing a good job at it.

Words are funny things, especially in movie forums with over-zealous fans [such as myself] and others. The spirit in which I posted was pure conjecture and for conversation sake. Again, you don't have to believe me but I'm not angry or the like. I decided to conjure some theories. Obviously, from most of the responses, I've not only offended people but I'm grossly in the wrong. We all have our own opinions and I applaud that. I stated mine. I have no issue with wealth, hell, I'd love to have enough money to do as I please some day. I try and be direct but when you talk about 'supposed' specifics of someone's [whom I don't know] life than I can absolutely understand how it could come across as a diss or a judgement. I assure you, I'm disappointed with the art George has made but that's all.

I've tried to come with some 'theories' about why this or why that and that's all. You can assume my intent, assume my motives and / or actions but if you do so, you do the same thing you accuse me of doing to Lucas. I still can't help but believe that secretly for some [or not so secretly] this is still a pissing match, or a war of words.

J.M. Prater
post #30 of 33
Actually I'm not interested in your motivations J.M., that's your business. You brought up a very good point, but I think you overdid it, that's all.

It's all good.
post #31 of 33
Kreeper, you know your shit.

Post more.
post #32 of 33
JM:where you lost a lot of us...including a number of us who are not big fans of the prequels...is when you began to psychoanalize Lucas. To say he made a couple of dissapointing movies is on thing...I would agree with you there....but we can't really know his personal movtives for doing so. What we can do is make individual judgements on what is on the screen.


"People keep saying "I hope George gets this one right". These are Lucas' stories to tell as he sees fit. So he got all three "right".

Substitute Uwe Boll for Lucas and you will see what a stupid statement that is.
"Why can't people say- "Wow is that how Anakin became Darth Vader? Cool. Thanks Mr. Lucas."
Because some of us have individual opinions, and are not slobbering "Lucas can do no wrong" fanboys.
Back to www.theforce.net where you belong, lad.
post #33 of 33
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Cunningham
Kreeper, you know your shit.

Post more.
Good to hear from you, Carl. It wouldn't be a legit STAR WARS thread without the participation of CHUD's official Lucasfilm/SW liasion.

Seriously, I almost PM'd you because I wanted to see what your take was on this topic was -- but based on your recent post (and others) I think I can guess...

BTW, check the Video Game section for an interesting new thread.
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