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HOLY SH*T- Sony's CELL Processor final specs revealed!

post #1 of 45
Thread Starter 
Courtesy of IGN (with special thanks to Waco Kid over at VGR):

http://ps2.ign.com/articles/585/585865p1.html?fromint=1


For those of you who like numbers, here are the basics:

Each Cell processor contains 8 Synergistic Processing Units and a single 64-bit Power Architecture Unit (All are RISC designs with SIMD)

Operates at >4GHz and capable of >256GFLOPS

256KB Local Storage per SPU and 512KB L2 Cache (2.5MB total)

128+ concurrent transactions to memory per processor

High-speed internal element interconnect performing at 96B/cycle

234 million transistors

Prototype die size of 221mm^2

Fabricated with 90nm SOI process technology

Read the actual article and it's explained in better English.

There's also a cool NY Times article on it and the next Xbox Console:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/07/te...ogin&oref=regi

Here's an excerpt:

"There is a new game in town, and it will revive an industry that has been kind of sleepy for the last few years," said Richard Doherty, a computer industry analyst and president of Envisioneering, a market research company in Seaford, N.Y.

The Cell's introduction also comes at a time when the computer industry has largely given up investing in fundamentally new processor designs and has instead chosen to use the additional space available on the newest generation of chips to place multiple processors and thus add performance.

The Cell chip, computer experts said, could have a theoretical peak performance of 256 billion mathematical operations per second. With that much processing power, the chip would have placed among the top 500 supercomputers on a list maintained by scientists at the University of Mannheim and the University of Tennessee as recently as June 2002.

"This is extremely impressive," said Kevin Krewell, editor in chief of Microprocessor Report, an industry technical publication, "and it proves that architectural innovation isn't dead."

One significant risk for Sony and I.B.M. is that the Sony PlayStation 3 game machine is likely to be introduced later than the next generation of Xbox from Microsoft. The PlayStation 2 beat the Xbox to market and Microsoft was never able to catch up, meaning that it lost hundreds of millions of dollars on its bet on the video game market.

In its next version of the Xbox, Microsoft plans to shift from using Pentium chips from Intel to a PowerPC microprocessor from I.B.M. The chip will have two PowerPC processor cores, but it will not be as radically new as the I.B.M. Cell design that Sony plans to use, said one executive who is familiar with the Microsoft project.

That will make for a fascinating rivalry: Sony is betting that its computer horsepower advantage will be large enough to give it a quality advance over Microsoft, even if it arrives late.

"Our goal with the Cell is to be an order of magnitude faster," said Lisa Su, an I.B.M. executive in charge of technology development and licenses.

Many industry executives believe that because of its low cost, the Cell is a harbinger of a fundamentally new computing era that will push increasingly into consumer applications.




Sounds like M$ will no longer have the tech advantage this next generation.
post #2 of 45
I'm willing to bet MS will do whatever is necessary to ensure they still have the tech advantage. It's all they've got to fight the PlayStation name.
post #3 of 45
Very simple: Which platform has exclusive rights to the Halo franchise?

Exactly.
post #4 of 45
I think the interesting thing about this is how everyone (Sony, Microsuck, Apple, Gamecube) is going with IBM processing, or collaborating with IBM. That is an insane number of chips.
post #5 of 45
Umm...thats a lot of nice numbers.

Show me the games and then I will start dealing out the expletives.
post #6 of 45
My question concerning the Cell Processor is the one everybody should have been asking when Sony was bragging up the Emotion Engine:

All that parallel processing power is nice and impressive, and my those numbers sure look breathtaking, but can anyone actually program the damn thing? Particularly working under the tight deadlines common with cutting edge game development?
post #7 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazer
Umm...thats a lot of nice numbers.

Show me the games and then I will start dealing out the expletives.
Because we all know how bad Sony is at getting developers to sign up for their hardware.
post #8 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreeper
Each Cell processor contains 8 Synergistic Processing Units and a single 64-bit Power Architecture Unit

Operates at >4GHz and capable of >256GFLOPS

256KB Local Storage per SPU and 512KB L2 Cache (2.5MB total)
post #9 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Chung
I think the interesting thing about this is how everyone (Sony, Microsuck, Apple, Gamecube) is going with IBM processing, or collaborating with IBM. That is an insane number of chips.

The IBM chips that M$ and Nintendo are getting from IBM are powerful but they're basically slightly modified off-the-shelf PC processors.

The big difference that separates the CELL from the other processors (besides its power) is the fact that it was custom made in a joint venture bewteen Sony, IBM, and Toshiba. The three companies spent the last 4 years developing it as a proprietary technology exclusive to Sony and the PS3. It's the first time a videogame company has ever done this.
post #10 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sphinx always gets the sake
My question concerning the Cell Processor is the one everybody should have been asking when Sony was bragging up the Emotion Engine:

All that parallel processing power is nice and impressive, and my those numbers sure look breathtaking, but can anyone actually program the damn thing? Particularly working under the tight deadlines common with cutting edge game development?
Excellent question. From the IGN article:

Obviously, real-world performance for any processor is entirely dependent on how well any given piece of software is written for it, especially so for multi-processor (and multi-core) machines. When asked about how one would go about programming for Cell or how difficult the task of managing the SPEs would be, an IBM rep stated that there would be multiple programming models, allowing for different approaches to programming for Cell. Each programmer could theoretically pick and choose which method they like to work with and program that way. It was also said that language compilers for Cell (for C, C++, etc.) would be released as open-source so that anyone could learn to tinker with its innards or possibly mold a compiler around a separate programming style for different needs.
post #11 of 45
When I worked at IBM (1998-2002) I got to visit the Tech R&D organization a couple of times while on an internal project. Absolutely mind-blowing.

IBM can churn out all of these processors without a problem, because they have the technology to accomplish even more. This stuff is just the proverbial tip of the iceberg.
post #12 of 45
So will ATI and IBM still be supplying the chips for Nintendo?
post #13 of 45
Why do I get the feeling Ill have to trade in my car to buy a ps3?
post #14 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dingus
So will ATI and IBM still be supplying the chips for Nintendo?
Yes, IBM has agreements to supply chips or aid in development of all three next-gen versions of the major consoles. That's why it's called 'Big Blue'.
post #15 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by thalasi
Why do I get the feeling Ill have to trade in my car to buy a ps3?
Because you don't know what you're talking about? EDIT: ok, I need to stop with these posts.
post #16 of 45
My comment about the games was referring to the fact that tech demos and processing power doesn't mean anything until we actually see games running on the platform.

Hey the 3DO was a powerful machine too.

Lets see what happens when developers start making some actual progress on actual games for the PS3.
post #17 of 45
Those specs make me think that this is how AI will overtake humanity. That is a shitload of processing power. Then again, the PS' architecture is so weird, who knows what kind of payload this chip is supposed to carry.

I can't wait to see it in action. Somehow I don't think that Sony's machine will be the one with the worst graphics anymore.
post #18 of 45
Remember when Saddam supposedly imported a bunch of PS2's because they were cheap super computers? Remember when they were called super computers? Remember when the Emotion Engine was supposed to have Toy Story graphics?

I'll believe the hype when I see the games.
post #19 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly McFly
Remember when Saddam supposedly imported a bunch of PS2's because they were cheap super computers?
I remember that. There was speculation that they were to be used for either missile guidance or unmanned aircraft. I wonder if that was true or if that was Sony's marketing genius. If it was true, I wonder if any soldiers came across Saddam's PS2 cache when they were looking for WMDs.
post #20 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL
Because you don't know what you're talking about? EDIT: ok, I need to stop with these posts.
What are you talking about. Its not like Sony is well known for having the customer spend less for the console then cost and then making it up with software purchases. Oh right I forgot, thats exactly what they do.

Needed to get that off my chest, its been annoying the way people keep on thinking Sony sells at a high price (see the PSP discussions). It may be a bit higher than the other consoles but I'm betting most will be able to afford it (I'm waiting about a year as is anyway, too many PS2 games I'm still playing).
post #21 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Chung
Those specs make me think that this is how AI will overtake humanity. That is a shitload of processing power. Then again, the PS' architecture is so weird, who knows what kind of payload this chip is supposed to carry.
I don't think the main problem with AI has to do processing power, but with the very limited knowledge we have about how the human mind works, and staleness and lack of a breakthrough in AI research.

This type of processor design is great news for consumers. I own Intel stock, and I'm glad companies are still trying to innovate with different architectures. An x86 only world is horrible and we need new approaches to solve computing problems, so the Cell architecture is welcomed news. Can't wait to see this thing in action.
post #22 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sly McFly
Remember when Saddam supposedly imported a bunch of PS2's because they were cheap super computers? Remember when they were called super computers? Remember when the Emotion Engine was supposed to have Toy Story graphics?

I'll believe the hype when I see the games.
That's fine, but they seem to be releasing more details about this than with the Emotion Engine. Not to mention it bodes well that this is a joint (IBM-Sony-Toshiba) effort and not Sony only. Not to mention that the great news here is that this chip design is scalable enough to be used in many different kinds of computing environments, and it's research money seems to pay off in putting it on many other things than only a game console.
post #23 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekT
What are you talking about. Its not like Sony is well known for having the customer spend less for the console then cost and then making it up with software purchases. Oh right I forgot, thats exactly what they do.

Needed to get that off my chest, its been annoying the way people keep on thinking Sony sells at a high price (see the PSP discussions). It may be a bit higher than the other consoles but I'm betting most will be able to afford it (I'm waiting about a year as is anyway, too many PS2 games I'm still playing).
What are you talking about? Dude, we're in agreement, your response should've been directed at the other guy who said, "why do I think I'll have to sell my car to buy a PS3?".
post #24 of 45
BTW Ignore clock speeds. They mean very little when you compare them against the clock speed of another CPU architecture (ex: PowerPC vs x86)
post #25 of 45
I think it's interesting that so many here won't "buy into the hype", yet even considering that the hype for PS2 and XBOX was overblown they were still vastly more powerful than the generation before. These consoles, whether they live up to the hype or not, are going to be vastly superior to the current generation.

You'll see, E3 isn't too far and I suspect we're all gonna be mopping the drool from our keyboards.
post #26 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fazer
My comment about the games was referring to the fact that tech demos and processing power doesn't mean anything until we actually see games running on the platform.

Hey the 3DO was a powerful machine too.

Lets see what happens when developers start making some actual progress on actual games for the PS3.


Good point. But as for the 3DO analogy:

1) The 3DO's retail price was $600 - $700 at launch! Nobody in their right mind charges more than $300 for a gaming console. That's especially true these days with PC prices falling so fast. Expect PS3 to be no more than $300; mostly due to the inexpensiveness of the CELL chip's manufacturing process (see the articles). Industry insiders are predicting that Xbox 2 will be the same price.

2) 3DO had a largely untested and at that time, expensive media format. PS3 will have Blu-ray and support DVD/PS2/PS1 backward compatibility.

3) 3DO had a few nice games but almost no 3rd party support, even 2 months after launch. Sony has the best 3rd party support of all three console manufacturers. Not to mention their own game studios.


At last year's E3, Rockstar's Sam Houser said that he was excited about the CELL technology because he felt that it's the only thing capable of handling his "grand vision" for Grand Theft Auto 4 (Rockstar doesn't consider Vice City and San Andreas true sequels). According to Houser, GTA4 is supposed to be a different thing entirely.

Bottom line: you're right, Fazer, it is the games (and how they play) that count. Only time will tell....
post #27 of 45
What an utter waste of technology and resources.
post #28 of 45
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Warren
What an utter waste of technology and resources.
Ummmm...did you actually read the IGN article?

The technology's not just for videogames, but for other applications as well. The combination of multi-processing power, miniaturization, and includes everything from improved broadband communications, computer A.I. (to be used for various purposes) to medical devices like smaller, more affordable microprocessors for artificial limbs.

But since this is the Videogame Thread, that's why we're talking about the CELL in that aspect...

Got it?
post #29 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by thalasi
Why do I get the feeling Ill have to trade in my car to buy a ps3?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreeper
Many industry executives believe that because of its low cost, the Cell is a harbinger of a fundamentally new computing era that will push increasingly into consumer applications.[/I]

As long as its no more expensive than the PS2 was, I'm game.
post #30 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by JuddL
What are you talking about? Dude, we're in agreement, your response should've been directed at the other guy who said, "why do I think I'll have to sell my car to buy a PS3?".
I know we were in agreement. I just posting is sort of a smartass way that we are in agreement.
post #31 of 45
I get the feeling that porting games may be a tad more difficult in the future, if they code to take advantage of the architecture.
post #32 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Warren
What an utter waste of technology and resources.
???
post #33 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Warren
What an utter waste of technology and resources.
Yeah, what's the point of having a 4ghz chip if the bus is at retard-Intel levels?

And in typical fashion, Microsoft choses to use the PowerPC chip on the xBox...because Apple began using it. If it works for Apple, it works for us. Don't innovate, just dulpicate.

BTW, HP tag line is "Invent." What have they invented? Anyone have a clue?
post #34 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nelson
BTW, HP tag line is "Invent." What have they invented? Anyone have a clue?
They haven't recently invented anything for sure, but I'm very happy that at least HP today got rid of their horrible Supreme Outsourceceress Carly Fiorina. Let's see if at least they can get their act together quickly or just close the whole damned operation.
post #35 of 45
I can't wait to play the titles in my flying car while wearing my virtual reality helmet.
post #36 of 45
Well with the PS3 having blueray, dvd, backwards compatibilty, why not add in a coffee machine for those late nights of playing. Then Sony and Starbucks can do deals and oh my god I'm just imagiing the size of that corporation.
post #37 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreeper
capable of >256GFLOPS
Holy Crap! I don't know what that means, but it makes me tingly...
What's a GFLOP? I may already know, but it's not smacking me upside the head right now.

It doesn't really matter though. I can walk around saying GigaFLOP now. That's all I need.

I like the whole idea of the backwards compatability. That makes a lot of practical sense. By now we're all used to Nintendo not doing it, and we kind of expect Sony to do it at this point, but it would be a shame if Microsoft doesn't pull it off for their 2nd console. But it's understandable if the machine guts make it a pain.

One question though. They've said the internal hardware might make it difficult for the next xbox to play current xbox games, but wouldn't it be just a form of emulation anyway that could be "programmed"? PS2 hardware isn't exactly the same as PS1 hardware, but they made it so old games could be played, and it seems that the PS3 may play both older generations (which is really cool since I have a stack of PS1 RPG I have yet to play...d'oh!). I guess I'm just asking if there be a way for MS to tinker with the hardware and make it work if Sony can do it? Or is there some fundamental hardware issue I'm just a little ignorant of?
post #38 of 45
Quote:
Holy Crap! I don't know what that means, but it makes me tingly...
What's a GFLOP? I may already know, but it's not smacking me upside the head right now.
A GFLOP is a billion floating point operations (per second)--how many numbers the processor can crunch in a second. Friends who are smarter than me say your current hot-shit computer handles about 20GFLOPs.
post #39 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by Count Floyd
A GFLOP is a billion floating point operations (per second)--how many numbers the processor can crunch in a second. Friends who are smarter than me say your current hot-shit computer handles about 20GFLOPs.
Ah, yes. Thanks. Those are some scary impressive numbers.

And thus, Skynet was born on this day.
post #40 of 45
I was under the impression that the PS2 also features a PS1 processor for backwarss compatibility. Wheter the PS3 will feature both a PS1 chip and an Emotion chip, or whether the cell processor can emulate those, I don't know.
post #41 of 45
Quote:
The PlayStation 2 beat the Xbox to market and Microsoft was never able to catch up, meaning that it lost hundreds of millions of dollars on its bet on the video game market.
Ha ha ha! What?
post #42 of 45
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas
I was under the impression that the PS2 also features a PS1 processor for backwarss compatibility. Wheter the PS3 will feature both a PS1 chip and an Emotion chip, or whether the cell processor can emulate those, I don't know.

Well then, that would make sense. These are the kind of details that tend to fade away with me after a while. There's all the build up before the consoles come out and all the tech specs take center stage, then they come out and the games become the focus since consoles are basically plug and play and you don't have to worry about the details after that.
post #43 of 45
I'm no engineer, but a floating point operation is any computation with a decimal point, hence the term floating point. Normal microprocessors only handle integer calculations, but floating point operations are used in 3D quite excessively. And it is an objective way of determining any given processor's real speed, since gigaflops mean the same thing on every chip (unlike megahertz.)

The 256 gigaflops number in the Cell processor specs must be a theoretical number at a maxed out clock speed. I expect that the PS3's processor won't be that fast.
post #44 of 45
Speaking of which, 7 Myths of the New Cell Processor was an interesting read over at Gizmodo, still haven't gottent through the Ars Technica piece yet.

Also, I find it amazing that people still believe Sony sold the PS2 at a significant loss, the only company doing that was Microsoft during the last go around.
post #45 of 45
From an article on this...it's the last paragraph that's cool...

Quote:
So the way that the Cell processor works is that there is a pool of 16 or so of these (probably not completely identical) RISC or SIMD/VLIW cores on a single die. The system will do its processing by drawing resources from this pool on a task-specific basis. For instance, the audio processing subsystem will consist of a set of software routines that request cycles from the pool for the purpose of processing 3D audio. The 3D engine will similarly request cycles from the same pool for rendering, and similarly with the game AI system, etc. The different processing cores will probably be grouped together dynamically by software into "teams" in order to complete specific tasks (i.e. 3D rendering, audio, etc.). Each team's size will scale dynamically to fit its current workload by either acquiring new cores from the pool or releasing unneeded cores back to the pool for use by other processes.

As should be obvious from just my brief description, this is a software-hardware hybrid chip almost on the order of Transmeta's Crusoe. The software (and concomitant memory bandwidth) overhead for this scheme will be enormous, and it's going to take a Herculean effort on the part of the system's designers to get real performance out of it. As one of the designers noted in a previous article on the Cell, the kind of bandwidth they'll need to make this work probably can't be provided by any bus technology currently in existence.

If these challenges can be overcome, the advantage to doing things this way could be substantial. It will be easy to add processing capacity to the system--just throw another PS3 onto the network and your PS3 can reach out and draw resources from its non-local pool. And of course Sony wants to see your set-top box running this same chip, as well as any other networked entertainment devices you might own. So a PS3 owner could conceivably grab unused cycles from a variety of devices on the LAN in order to increase a game's 3D realism.
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paed...ion3.ars?55138
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