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New perspective on Ep. 1 and 2

post #1 of 62
2/14/05 at 7:24am
Thread Starter 
I was speaking to a friend last night and the subject of Star Wars and the prequels came up. He says to me, "I have friends who say 'man, the first two sucked!' and I say bullshit, they sucked to you because they're like the first two chapters in a great novel. You gotta get all the boring shit outta the way because it sets up what happens in the rest of the novel!"

I thought that was a cool way of looking at EP.1 and 2... and I sort of see what Lucas was trying to do in those movies. It doesn't excuse less than stellar acting, but Lucas is trying to tell the story of Anakin and how he became Vader and how the Republic became this dictatorship. He has the luxury of taking his time because he knows everyone will go see the movies and he's using his own money. I think he's approaching the prequels in his own way and not the typical one movie at a time way of hollywood, where they put all their eggs in one basket in each film.

I was also thinking about the comments some people have made about the first 2 prequels being so unecessary that they could've been the opening crawl of Ep.3. To me that is exactly what Lucas is trying to do... make what you'd think be the opening crawl in Ep.3 actual movies and go through all that in order to pay off with the 3rd movie. Who knows, just random thoughts, but I think my buddy is on to something.
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post #2 of 62
2/14/05 at 7:44am
Not to be a jerk, but how exactly is this a new perspective? This has been thrown around since '99. I mean, it's sort of the whole notion of a prequel, isn't it?

I guess to be fair it's cool if you want to look at them like that, but to anyone who didn't like them I don't think this would make them look at them in a more positive light.
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post #3 of 62
2/14/05 at 7:55am
I still cant believe that anyone can be bothered discussing star wars anymore. Here's the run down:

Episode I: Good blockbuster, crummy star wars flick.
Episode II: Pretty good star wars entry, polishes Episode I's turd a bit.
Episode III: Wait and see.

(No I'm not bitter)
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post #4 of 62
2/14/05 at 8:20am
So the idea is that the first two are vindicated for being horrible because they're building up to something good? I can think of plenty of trilogies that are good all the way through. The OT, for instance. No, I tried watching Attack of the Clones the other day and it was a struggle. I kept having to literally look away from the screen and cringe. If you want to excuse them for being so awful, imagine he let his kids write them. Seems that way, doesn't it?
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post #5 of 62
2/14/05 at 8:25am
Yeah that's a perspective discussed from May of '99 and on. But I guess everyone has to have their very own thread for theorizing about the prequels.
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post #6 of 62
2/14/05 at 10:58am
yeah man I'm with you I always hate reading the first two chapters of a book.

but luckily for us chapter 3 is always the most awesomest chapter. of books.
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post #7 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:07am
That's retarded logic.
They are not book chapters. They are individual films telling a larger story, but they must still stand on their own as individual films (follow character and story arcs to a conclusion).
And even if they do suck because they are "supposed" to be all set up, then why make them at all? If you've already presented the compelling part of the story, there is no need to go back and fill in backstory if it's not neccesary.
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post #8 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:10am
but bobclark you do have to admit that the first two chapters of great novels usually suck hard... I mean its like a prerequisite to great novelness.
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post #9 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechairmanofthebored
but bobclark you do have to admit that the first two chapters of great novels usually suck hard... I mean its like a prerequisite to great novelness.
Just out of interest, how many "great" novels have you read?
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post #10 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:15am
like, all of them.
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post #11 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechairmanofthebored
like, all of them.
You must have a very large bookshelf, then.
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post #12 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:38am
Dude, you know the first two chapters of every book in the "Goosebumps" series have been shitty. That's why those books ROCK. SO. FUCKING. HARD.
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post #13 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:46am
I’m curious to discover what people take from “great books” if they feel the first couple of chapters exist exclusively to get the “boring shit out of the way”.

Actually, I’m not. This is the most ludicrous notion I’ve heard all month.
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post #14 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:50am
Books have too many words.

Words are stupid.

Reading is stupid.

You're stupid.
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post #15 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AgentOrange
I’m curious to discover what people take from “great books” if they feel the first couple of chapters exist exclusively to get the “boring shit out of the way”.

Actually, I’m not. This is the most ludicrous notion I’ve heard all month.
no dude, it's like in the grapes of wrath. we had to go through two chapters of boring okie shit to get to chapter three and the turtle. but that turtle fucking delivered.
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post #16 of 62
2/14/05 at 12:17pm
Assuming that ROTS turns out to be quite good, if one dislikes the first two installments of a six-part series (or, one third of the whole) - wouldn't that equate to the first 8 chapters (of an average, 24 chapter novel)?
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post #17 of 62
2/14/05 at 12:18pm
Math is stupid, too.
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post #18 of 62
2/14/05 at 12:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thechairmanofthebored
but bobclark you do have to admit that the first two chapters of great novels usually suck hard... I mean its like a prerequisite to great novelness.
I do not and will not. So there.
But let's assume for the sake of argument that's true. The comparison still doesn't hold to justify Eps. 1 & 2's suckosity. Chapters are contained within one unit of a story. Movies exist on their own. Like books.
It's like saying Fellowship and Two Towers (the books) suck because they are the first two chapters of a larger story.
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post #19 of 62
2/14/05 at 12:58pm
I think part of the problem with looking at it this way is that it didn't feel like the story was about Anakin all along when the first trilogy came out. It's ret-conning of the highest order. Sure, we knew the prequels would contain the fall of Anakin, but we were also looking forward to seeing the Jedi in their prime, the Clone Wars, and the rise of the Empire. And in seeing more of the Clone Wars than five minute snippets on the Cartoon Network. While I appreciate Lucas not feeling like he had to slavishly follow fan expectations and tried to tell his own story, all those shadowy hints of Mandalorian commandos and such from the production of Empire planted seeds that we wanted to see harvested, and still haven't.

Ideally, in my mind, Episode I should have been finding/training Anakin, Episode II is the Clone Wars with Anakin in all his glory, and then Episode III could proceed pretty much as it sounds. It not only would have given us Anakin's story, but also given it the epic backdrop that the original trilogy had.
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post #20 of 62
2/14/05 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClark
I do not and will not. So there.
But let's assume for the sake of argument that's true. The comparison still doesn't hold to justify Eps. 1 & 2's suckosity. Chapters are contained within one unit of a story. Movies exist on their own. Like books.
It's like saying Fellowship and Two Towers (the books) suck because they are the first two chapters of a larger story.
please don't bring up lord of the rings. let's try to keep this on the topic at hand-- which is inventing new ways to make star wars seem good so there is more to our lives than pornography.
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post #21 of 62
2/14/05 at 1:14pm
What the fuck, hasn't this all been brought up a million times before?
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post #22 of 62
2/14/05 at 1:25pm
I seriously doubt whether the sun has enough fuel to outlive this debate.
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post #23 of 62
2/14/05 at 1:29pm
Have the AICN talkbacks suddenly changed their colour-scheme?
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post #24 of 62
2/14/05 at 2:13pm
I'll just wait for the fan's cut of the adaptation of the screenplay novelization. That'll have everything I want.
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post #25 of 62
2/14/05 at 2:26pm
Here's a couple of quotes from the other ep. III thread

Quote:
'The first trilogy will not be as much of an action adventure kind of thing. Maybe we'll make it have some humour, but right now it's much more humourless than this one. This one (the OT) is where all the excitement is, which is why I started with it. The other ones are a little more Machiavellian - it's all plotting - more of a mystery' - Interview with George Lucas, Starlog No 48, 1981.
Quote:
The films that record what went on in the beginning—if they are ever made—will be altogether different in look and tone from the existing trilogy, says Lucas. They will be more melodramatic, showing the political intrigue and Machiavellian plotting that led to the downfall of the once noble Republic. They will have only enough outward action to keep the plot moving. Obi-Wan Kenobi, the elderly Jedi who was played by Alec Guinness in the Star Wars series, and Darth Vader will be seen as younger men, while Luke Skywalker may make a brief appearance as a baby in Episode III. - TIME, 1983
Sounds like what we got...
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post #26 of 62
2/14/05 at 3:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobClark
The comparison still doesn't hold to justify Eps. 1 & 2's suckosity. Chapters are contained within one unit of a story. Movies exist on their own. Like books.
Yeah but Bob, that's what I'm talking about. I think the prequels ARE one story and I think Lucas is approaching it that way.

Look, this thread is not intended to be "Ep.1 and 2 sucked, but I like them and I'm going to find any excuse I can pull outta my ass to prove it." Not at all.
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post #27 of 62
2/14/05 at 11:30pm
When was the last time you got to read the best and later parts of a great book 25-years before the first two chapters were published?
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post #28 of 62
2/15/05 at 5:44pm
"So the idea is that the first two are vindicated for being horrible because they're building up to something good?"
That seems to be the idea.
A couple of slow chapters at the beginning of a book is one thing, two thirds of the book being slow is a sign that a writer does not know what he or she is doing and needs a good editor.
No matter how Good Pt III is it will not make shit Like Jar Jar, Jake Lloyd's bad acting as Anakin, or the shitty love scenes in Ep II any better.

"I think the prequels ARE one story and I think Lucas is approaching it that way."
Then Lucas knows shit about storytelling if...(given my opinion that TPM suckes and AOTC has a weak first half but improved in the second half) the first half of his story sucks.

""Ep.1 and 2 sucked, but I like them and I'm going to find any excuse I can pull outta my ass to prove it."
Sorry, guy, but that is what it is coming off of to a lot of people.
So many of the flaws of the first two films have to do with things like acting, writing, etc, tahter then the basic story that I really don't think a good Third film is going to make them any better.
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post #29 of 62
2/15/05 at 8:09pm
If Episode 3 turns out great, then people won't say "ah now the first 2 seem so much better", they'll say "what the fuck happened to the first 2??!!"

The first 2 prequels are terrible, and I will probably never watch them again. Episode 3 sounds and looks good, but then so did the others. It will either be very good or a crushing dissappointment, but either way the others will remain in all their shitty glory.

Whoever said Episode 1 should have been Anakin training, with Episode 2 the clone wars was absolutely right. Lucas has an uncanny knack of only showing the cruddy boring stuff in his films, while the cool stuff we were all looking forward to has been banished to the EU. What a waste.
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post #30 of 62
2/15/05 at 8:15pm
Quote:
Lucas has an uncanny knack of only showing the cruddy boring stuff in his films, while the cool stuff we were all looking forward to has been banished to the EU. What a waste.
You seem to have missed the whole point of the prequels. Well done.
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post #31 of 62
2/15/05 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles B
You seem to have missed the whole point of the prequels. Well done.

Perhaps I have. What is the point of the Prequels?
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post #32 of 62
2/15/05 at 8:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeviatedPrevert
Perhaps I have. What is the point of the Prequels?
To piss you off.
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post #33 of 62
2/15/05 at 9:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt45
To piss you off.

Ah, thought so.
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post #34 of 62
2/15/05 at 9:14pm
Quote:
Ideally, in my mind, Episode I should have been finding/training Anakin, Episode II is the Clone Wars with Anakin in all his glory, and then Episode III could proceed pretty much as it sounds. It not only would have given us Anakin's story, but also given it the epic backdrop that the original trilogy had.
Gold.

Seems like my dream of seeing "a young Jedi named Darth Vader... hunt down and destroy the Jedi knights" will not happen. I know Anakin will do this, but I always imagined Vader in action, and not Hayden.

Also, am I the only one who feels dirty for posting in a Star Wars thread?
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post #35 of 62
2/15/05 at 9:22pm
See I think ALL the episodes should have had the clone wars as a backdrop just like the galactic civil war was the backdrop for all the OT. And yes, Anakin should have been older and yes we should have seen him be trained by Obi-Wan and yes, we should have seen him kick more ass. But that goes back to the difference between what the fans had in mind and what Lucas has in mind.
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post #36 of 62
2/16/05 at 12:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottenjesus
Thank the Maker that Lucas is doing it his way and not the fan's way. Which would mainly consist of:

Lots of fighting, lots of fighting, lots of fighting.....PLOT....more fighting, more fighting.

ROLL CREDITS


I think I prefer the denser films that Lucas is doing over poorly conceived fanboy masturbation anyday.



rJ

I think if anyone's guilty of masturbation, its him.
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post #37 of 62
2/16/05 at 1:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottenjesus
Elaborate on this "witty" observation, please.

No, wait! Don't.

Seriously.


rJ

Don't worry, I won't elaborate, but I will continue this 'metaphor' by saying that Lucas could have made the prequels 4 hours of him beating off in an ewok costume and some people (not naming names) would have applauded.

Yikes, thats an image I'd rather forget!
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post #38 of 62
2/16/05 at 2:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottenjesus
I'd like to forget you. You complete fucking dumbass.

Prevert? More like Shiteating Douchebag who thinks mispelling pervert is cool. It's not.

Only douchebags spell like that and possess "wit" like yours. Of course when I said "wit" I meant "I.Q. of a lump of shit".

You've now been abused by someone with balls.


rJ

Wow, attacking my username. That really hurt.

And when you're done abusing me with your balls, please remember to clean your keyboard. Sticky keys can be an annoyance I hear.
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post #39 of 62
2/16/05 at 3:43am
Well if you're the expert on wit then you surely know the origin of my username. Its from a very witty film by Stanley Kubrick, starring the very witty Peter Sellers. I'll give you some time. Impress me with your wit.
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post #40 of 62
2/16/05 at 4:06am
Am I back in middle school?
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post #41 of 62
2/16/05 at 4:13am
Well you seem to have an unhealthy interest in my username, judging by the content of your recent posts. In fact that seems to be the only subject of your posts regarding myself. That, and the homoerotic elements of course.
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post #42 of 62
2/16/05 at 4:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottenjesus
My previous post is vindicated.

Quit while you're quite far behind of the other thousand or so retarded fanboys who have flooded the boards recently.

You've been fun.


rJ

I'm just sorry I couldn't give you what you want. Don't worry, I'm sure he's out there somewhere.
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post #43 of 62
2/16/05 at 1:18pm
It's really hilarious that RJ has no clue he loses every flame-fight he's in.
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post #44 of 62
2/16/05 at 1:43pm
Aw shit Cuntgoblin is back with his self delusional threats. The guys speaks of dense plot structure and less fighting and that is the exact opposite of the prequels. Then when he is called out on it all he can do is swear and make himself look more of the horses ass.
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post #45 of 62
2/16/05 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottenjesus
Thank the Maker that Lucas is doing it his way and not the fan's way. Which would mainly consist of:

Lots of fighting, lots of fighting, lots of fighting.....PLOT....more fighting, more fighting.

ROLL CREDITS



rJ
This kills me because this is mostly what Lucas has done.
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post #46 of 62
2/16/05 at 1:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffnrock
Looks like I'm back on his ignore list. That, or he's still desperately trying to formulate a response to my last post.
Nah coffnrock its not that hard for cuntgoblin to fomulate repsonses as they mainly consist of "fuck, shit, and bitch" with "you are" occasionally thrown in there.
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post #47 of 62
2/16/05 at 1:57pm
Doodz, we all know that if the prequel$ were as ADULT as the originals they would be hard HARD R-rated.

I mean, WTF? No blood. It's not dark at all. Han Solo was all I pwn you, you galactic mofo cool and what do we get? Hayden Christianson as Anikan. If I hate something it's whiners!

And OB1 was so cool he could slice through Exar Koon with his penis. Now he can't even beat Jango Fett.

Luca$ (LuCASH?) is a f'in hack. Kurtz was the real genious. The prequelsa should have been directed by David Fincher (and Peter Jackson for ep. III) and written by Joss Whedon.

LOL LOL LOL!!!1!!
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post #48 of 62
2/16/05 at 2:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mastronikolas
Doodz, we all know that if the prequel$ were as ADULT as the originals they would be hard HARD R-rated.

I mean, WTF? No blood. It's not dark at all. Han Solo was all I pwn you, you galactic mofo cool and what do we get? Hayden Christianson as Anikan. If I hate something it's whiners!

And OB1 was so cool he could slice through Exar Koon with his penis. Now he can't even beat Jango Fett.

Luca$ (LuCASH?) is a f'in hack. Kurtz was the real genious. The prequelsa should have been directed by David Fincher (and Peter Jackson for ep. III) and written by Joss Whedon.

LOL LOL LOL!!!1!!
I don't think anyone in this thread has said that is what they wanted. It's okay to say "what if" sometimes.
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post #49 of 62
2/16/05 at 2:17pm
I know it was but not sure where it's coming from.
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post #50 of 62
2/16/05 at 5:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rottenjesus
Prevert? More like Shiteating Douchebag who thinks mispelling pervert is cool. It's not.

Only douchebags spell like that and possess "wit" like yours. Of course when I said "wit" I meant "I.Q. of a lump of shit".
BTW, it's misspelling.
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