BATMAN - Good or bad?

Seconded.

I fall somewhere in the middle. There are certain things I like about it, mainly Nicholson, but a lot of stuff that drives me crazy. For one thing, there isn't a scene in that movie that doesn't feel like it's set on a soundstage (the parade is particularly egregious). And the Prince soundtrack has not aged well.

Still....it's got Lando, and that counts for something. Today I'd give it a 6.5 out of 10.

When it came out I was a nine-year-old fanboy in training, so yeah I dug it... As time went on, however, and as I got older and more jaded I realized just how much this flick doesn't do it for me. I usually get evil looks when I state my opinion that I dislike pretty much all of the casting. I simply don't buy Nicholson as the Joker, he's just more cool than crazy. I also dislike Keaton as Bats/Bruce, I think he had his moments, but overall played it too goofy. Don't really care all that much for Vicki Vale, and I don't like that there always has to be a love interest outside of Catwoman or maybe Talia.
I also agree about the sets and effects being very "soundstage" looking and choosing Prince to do the theme is one of those out-of-left-field choices that just falls flat.
I think comic movies and movies in general have advanced so much between then and now that certain things about it seem almost laughable to watch now, at least in my opinion.
Simply put, I like specific moments out of the first two Bat-movies, but as a whole they leave me highly disappointed...

Lando... as Harvey Dent. That could have gone somewhere interesting, had not the franchise been handed over to Schumacher.

I like this ("This town needs an enema!"), but prefer Returns ("Still, it could be worse. My nose could be gushing blood!" and "Unlimited poontang...").

Yeah, I never understood the hate either. Most of the complaints I heard was that the Joker was too far from the comic books. I'd be inclined to agree, but to me that wasn't a problem, since Jack Nicholson made his character (whatever you want to call it, Joker or not) more dangerous and interesting than the Joker had just about ever been in the comics, save a few stellar examples.

Also, many of the typical criticisms about the Batman movie series don't really apply to the first movie. For instance, Batman was decently mobile. He throws judo kicks like in Dark Knight Returns, he fights and gets tossed around, rolling on the ground and springing back up at one point. It isn't like Batman in the comics, but it also isn't like in the later movies, where hes just walking around, backhanding people who sneak up behind him.

Maybe I'm forgetting one, but as far as I can remember, I think Tim Burton's Batman is the best, and most complete superhero film ever made. The stylization is awesome, the theme is truly epic, and there are an amazing number of things that make me think Tim Burton worked harder on this movie than all his others.

Kim Basinger sure does scream alot in this film.

Arliss sucks. But overall, I thought the first Batman was great. The atmosphere really made that movie come alive for me and I wish there had been more than the 2 movies helmed by Burton.

Just to reiterate, Arliss sucks.

I enjoy the movie on a base level, and I think it's closer to the 1966 version than anyone will admit. I also heavily dislike Nicholason's Joker.

I think it's great. Burton brought a more playful attitude to his noir-ish take on Batman and the city of Gotham, and it works really well. I like the casting too, but Basinger's Vale can get a little grating. She does scream a lot.

I agree with most of you. I think the movie was overall great but Aliss was a joke. The part where the batjet flew in front of the moon was kinda cheesy also.

I think the hate's undeserved, too. It's done more to shape the modern, beloved vision of Batman than anything else. The climax is paced weirdly, but that's the only complaint I can muster against it (I even like the reporter guy and the soundtrack!). Best movie Batmobile we'll ever see, too.

You have read THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, right?

I love the look of the movie and don't take much issue with the casting, and the musical score is a masterpiece, but watching it nowadays is so frustrating for me due to the stupid, stupid script. Despite all it's quotable lines, the script is just awful.

Admit it.

Whats not so great:
Too much emphisis on the Joker
Nicholson was too old to play him
Keaton was too short to play Batman
Joker killing Bruce's parents
Basinger screaming all the time
Killing the Joker
Not enough background info on Batman himself
Batman wanting to kill

What did work:
the music-Danny Elfman with the help and crew of John Williams crew minus the Williams
a few iconic scenes, like I'm Batman and Descent into Mystery
Keaton's performance
Nicholson's performance


I guess as casual movie fans, this movie isn't too bad, yet to comic book whores it is just off. Try taking a look at previous scripts. They were really good. Burton loved to make changes.

I think the 1966 Batman is more entertaining and has more pound-for-pound quotability than the 1989 version.

Still, it's not that bad. It's got some great stuff but some of it has also not aged well. I have been really harsh talking about it in the bast but looking at it now it's just "not at good as it could have been" rather than "shitpile."

If only...

...Alec Baldwin had been cast instead of Keaton. Burton picked the wrong "Beetlejuice" alumnus. Also, axe the Prince music & Arliss & make Bats able to move his neck. Then we'd have a classic.

Make it not directed by Tim Burton and we have a classic.*

Yeah. I hate to say it, but I feel like its influence is overstated. The harsh, gritty Batman that Miller heralded isn't so prevalent anymore (and anyway, people forget that the earlier Neil Adams-era Batman was pretty dark in itself; that we didn't go right from Adam West to Dark Knight), whereas the gothic visual style and Elfman-esque score defined by Burton's movie are what make Batman "Batman" now. Good heavens, what a nerdy post.

I think Sairus hits the nail on the head about this flick, Joker killing Bruce's folks, killing the Joker and Batman wanting to kill never sat well with me. Its a decently entertaining flick, but the problems I have with it make it hard for me to put it any GREAT COMIC BOOK MOVIE category. Oh, and Nicholson sucked as the Joker, I'm sorry, but that was probably the LEAST inspired casting in the film. It waan't a performance, it wsa a parody, of the Joker and of Nicholson.

Of the four BATMAN films to date, my favorite remains BATMAN RETURNS. It's pretty obvious that Burton also got to indulge in more of his fetishes on this one as well. But more than that, I think it's a more down-to-earth story (Penguin aside) and I love the Batman-Bruce/Catwoman-Selina relationship. Its cinematography and production design far surpass the "soundstagey" look of the original.

And it's got Christopher Walken in it. You can't hate that.

The original BATMAN is a fairly effective piece of soulless entertainment. It has some nice moments but on the whole, I find it to be a little awkward, which is understandable since they were still trying to figure out how to bring Batman to life.

The less said about the Schumacher films, the better. They are nothing less than a cinematic abortion in every way. (Well, almost every way.)

I have high hopes for BATMAN BEGINS.

Oh boy Batman Returns?!

As a film buff I think the film is a great visual sense of a dark dream.

As a Batman fan, I'm shocked at the treatment of the Batman character. At least in B89, you do have a reason for killing (although if that reason is based on another error), but here Batman is blatnently killing and enjoying it. He purposefully ignited the Batmobile's flames to burn a guy and then attached a bomb to another and allowed him to be blown up while smiling.

Casting wise, Keaton is still too short, but I think they got it right with DeVito and Phieffer. Don't get me started on the treatment of the Penguin character, but even Bob Kane didn't like it. Phieffer was awesome in the role as Catwoman, yet still the character was protrayed wrong.

Sam Hamm had written scripts for both B89 and BReturns, and they were brilliant. They were true to the comics and still very entertaining (but of course I'm just imagining it, depends how its directed). Here there are huge leaps of logic like Penguin getting detailed blueprints of the Batmobile!

Now what worked:
the music-its kinda a notch down, but still good
german expressionism and symbolism
performances all around
the look on the old woman's face when the Batmobile screetches to a halt after Penguin takes control of it.
the scene where the Batsiginal goes flying into Wayne Manor (although I wonder why no one ever asked why there were Batsignals around the house).
I also loved little kids crying and realizing that Batman has a very dark side. I loved it in SW: AOTC when Anakin went to town on the Tuskins. Little kids suddenly were like "mommy, why isn't his mommy moving? Mommy? AHHHH"

adding to the Devito Penguin hate. I can only watch the movie as Elseworlds type tales totally removed from the comics. In reimagining the characters, they all became IN NAME ONLY for me. Except Alfred, he was spot on. And Gordon was still too bumbling in the movies. I was half expecting chief Ohara to show up most of the time. All we needed was the little red phone in the Comissioner's office. The catwoman in the movie was a decent reimagining(but come on, she was fucking dead after falling that far). If they did just her in the flick, and really hammered in the psychological love triangle, that would have rocked my balls off. If the new series ever gets to Selina Kyle catwoman I hope they take a page from either Frank Miller's take or the Animated series version.

Both Burton Batmans are good movies and bad Batman adaptations. Just because they didn't faithfully adapt the Batman mythos doesn't automatically make them bad cinema.

I'm not saying they're bad cinema, they both look super cool, the music rocks, the acting, for the most part is good, I enjoy them on some levels and have watched them both countless times over the years, but they definitely deserve most of the criticisms leveled on them on both an adaptational level and a cinematic level.

Not that I was directing my comment at you, but how are "the Penguin isn't anything like his comic counterpart" and "Joker can't kill Batman's parents" and "Jack Nicholson isn't right for the Joker at all" valid filmic criticisms? I haven't heard much else. Not that the films don't have their flaws, that's why I consider them good and not perfect, excellent, great, or really good.

How do you know either one of these guys died as a direct result of Batman's actions? I don't remember seeing either one of them actually die on-camera. And not to justify murder by the hands of Burton's Batman but soldiers kill people in the name of "justice" seemingly every day. Are they not "heroes?" Are they not fighting for a "good cause?"

Just askin'.

No one should hate De Vito's Penguin. It's the best Batman movie-bad guy so far, and I have never really liked character in the comics. He's wonderfully weird, evil, brilliant, disgusting and horny, and De Vito seems to be having loads of fun playing him. I can totally understand how the outlandishness might put people off, but I love it.

That's it I've got to say it...

What the fuck do people have with Batman killing his enemies??? I'm sick to death of hearing about it, I really am.

Look, I KNOW he often didn't kill in the comic books and it works, but if he didn't in the movies it would make BAD DRAMA!!! Oh yeah, him grabbing Joker at the end of Batman and saying "You're going to jail" wouldn't be laughable and completely un-dramatic at all... :@@:

It makes good drama on screen. Come on, remember in that abomanation that was Batman Forever, after Robing finally confronts Two Face for killing his parents and he goes "I'd rather see you in Jail!" It's bloody awful. It does NOT make good cinema and it is not dramatic at all, I cringed.

As for the Fire Breather in Returns, he's running around setting couples e.t.c. all sorts of people on fire and Batman gives him a taste of his own medicine, that's JUSTICE! Plus it's funny as fuck, I always laugh my ass off at that bit, I love it. The guy who he attaches the bomb to, that's a great visual gag. Batman obviously can't beat him fist to fist and so keeps the guy distracted and attaches it to him, again funny as fuck!

Don't forget these people are running amuck killing at random, Batman has got to do what he can under those circumstances...he's only one man, he can't cuff 'em all. Plus, don't forget in Returns he tells Shreck he's going to jail, it's Catwoman who kills him and again it's deserved. The Penguin dying, Batman only sets the bats on him, he falls to his own death. Plus, I've always seen this as Batman setting him free as although Penguin is a mass BABY killer (yeah, just send him to jail, it's so dramatic...this isn't fucking cops you know?) he's a genuinely sad character and a tortured soul, and really needs to be freed from his own, bitter internal conflict which would never be cured.

Imagine if in both the first films Batman cuffed all these guys who attacked him, it'd be bloody EMBARASSING!!! He doesn't kill 'em all but he does when he sees it as deserved or he has no choice through being out numbered or (in the case of Jack Napier) knows he just damn well deserves it. Why change it so that Napier killed his parents? Because it's more cinematically DRAMATIC!!! It creates something personal between the two lead characters that could not be developed otherwise in one movie!

Plus!!! Me and a friend have always held this theory, you don't see Bruce recognise Napier as the man who killed his parents until much later in the movie, even though he sees him much more earlier. We believe this is because Batman is unhinged and psychotic almost, and sees the face of his parents killer in every foe he comes across. It's at the end of Batman that he becomes more of a friend of Gotham and is more of a Justice Crusader, but at the beginning he's not sure who he is..."rather kill these criminals than let them possibly make another kid like me parentless"

I love the first movie, it's not perfect and it hasn't aged well but it's still the best live action adaptation of Batman by a long way. Keaton was perfect as Batman in my opinion, because he conveys that unpredictability of whether he's a hero or ho better than the people he's chasing. I loved Nicholson in it too, granted he's over the top but it really works. As for the rest of the cast I've pretty much agreed with what everyone has said. Plus, it's the best Batmobile you're ever likely to see on screen.

Personally I think Returns is the better of the two, for reasons that would be off the point and too long to go into here...maybe another time. The only thing is doesn't have that the first does is the personal connection between Batman and Joker, and that was NEVER a bad thing, it was fantastic for dramatic purposes so will you purists please get over it.

I LOVE the comics, but I also know these changes made it work better as a film.

I'm pretty sure all of the goons in the AXIS chemical building were fucking toast. Batman even remote controlled the Batmobile and wiped it and all of them out, thats extreme even for Batman, and he didn't even go in and round the fuckers up before blowing the shit outta the place. The Joker was the priority, there was no reason for him to destroy the place and all the occupants in it, other than for pure bloodlust and vengeance.

"As for the Fire Breather in Returns, he's running around setting couples e.t.c. all sorts of people on fire and Batman gives him a taste of his own medicine, that's JUSTICE!" NO, thats The Punisher.

What makes Batman so fucking awesome is that he'll beat the tar out of you and then bring you to justice. If the lives of his family meant that much to them, for him to remain good in their eyes, he'd never lower himself to the same levels as the guys he's after. I understand there's always the temptation fore him to cross the line, and that's where the drama comes in, not him offing guys with no more thought than if he was gonna go take a shit. The Post Crisis Batman was out for justice and to AVENGE, not REVENGE. There's a difference. And the Devito Penguin still sucks, its not Devito's fault, its the fact that they took the Physical grotesquery of the chracter and made that the focus of the character, and not the fact that the Penguin looks like a shit-heel, but has a brilliant criminal mind, and can be just as cunning as Batman. I was so glad when The Animated series changed their chracter model for the Penguin from the "Returns" type to the comics type for Mystery of the Batwoman. Again, the movies are entertaining, but its just not Batman, much like the Hellblazer fans are saying Constantine is entertaining, but its NOT Hellblazer. I'm also not bashing the fans of the films, I totally understand why people like them and appreciate the fact that those films did wonders for revitalizing Batman as a property. The animated series has spoiled many Bat Fans, that show was fucking spot on in terms of characterization, execution and balancing on the line between the dark/noir detective aspects, the super-heroics and the flat out fun of watching a guy in a fright mask scare the shit outta criminals, with style.

I'm sorry, man, but you are not judging the Batman films objectively. You're not looking at them as films but as adaptations. Which is fine, I guess, but recognize that that's what you're doing and not the other way around.

I am slightly looking at them as a Batman fan, but I do acknowledge that the Burton films are at least cinema, but Joel's are just gay fantasys that even homosexuals are a little afraid to acknowledge.

I love the first two (despite all of their flaws). I hate three and four though. On that note, I can't wait for Batman Begins.

The first Batman film only gets worse with repeat viewings. Burton having never read the comic shows how unsuited he was for the gig. Fuck, at least Singer did his homework and nailed the characters.

Burton's Batman is NOT what the character is about. Not a horrible film, but it is certainly not meant for true Batman comic fans.

Nicholson's performance is one of his absiolute worst. I ditto Charles, its not a performance but a stupid pardody. I suggest to anyone to read "The Killing Joke" for a fantastic Joker story. A real psychotic son-of-bitch that makes you wonder if Bats can handle the fucker. A serious threat, not some buffoon that listens to Prince.

Returns is good only for the delectable Shelly Phfieffer! As usual, the stupid fucking penguin ruins nearly every story he is in. I hate him on the animated series as well. I've always thought he would have worked best as a tiny little mob boss who wears tuxedos and the press poke fun of him by dubbing him "Penguin", not some pathetic mutant.

Those are valid points becauss if you are going to adapt a character, get it right! In the comics, the Penguin is not some lame-ass mutant.

The films fail for the most part I think by not getting the characters right, especially Batman. Changing ones origin is no big deal if it suits the story and is faithful to the spirit of the character at least, but if the character comes off as a in- name- only creation, then why bother?

Nope.. That would be "Superman: The Movie" & "Spider-Man 2." Hopefuilly "Batman Begins" can be on the list.

Honorable mentions of "X-Men 2."

Hey are we not forgetting the first Ninja Turtles movie? Its actually very close the comic book. Only when our parents cried did we get the crap of 2 and 3 (yet in terms of nolstalgia they are still okay).

This recent anti-batman (the first one) sentiment is just normal backlash. There are definitely things in it that don't hold up but it single handedly brought about the huge comic book movie influx happening today (for good or for bad). Maybe some are too young to remember but when that came out there was simply nothing else like it, at the time it had almost as groundbreaking a feel as the first matrix.

I think burton is partly to blame for the after-the-matter-hate going on now because until big fish every damn movie he made after that looked and sounded like batman. To make things worse, not only was burton continuously copying himself but so was everyone else.

I suspect the present animosity towards the movie will die down once some of the more recent comic darlings have had a chance to age a bit.

I actually prefer Batman Forever over Batman One. Kilmer is great, the Robin story is nice and Tommy is just awesome as TwoFace. There could have been a better actor for Carrey, there could have been less Carrey overacting, less plotholes and a grittier tone, but so far it was good.

Batman Returns is still the best, imho, though the Begins screenplay is really good, too. Doesn't feel like being written by the man who did Trinity to Blade.


Batman & Robin? George Clooney ice-skating, ziing-badabing-bazz! sound fx like in the Adam West series, BATGIRL, Bane and an absolutely overblown last third? You know you've gone to far if you seriously cast Alicia Silverstone in your movie. The anti-movie to Spider-Man 2 (which is the best comic book movie so far).

What is this nonsense about Keaton being too short?

Batman 89 is more a classical spin on the comic that works if you accept it on its own terms, which comic fanatics are unwilling to do. That's why they don't like it. It's a fantastic movie; very entertaining.

Nicholson is fucking awesome. Over the top, yes, but that's the point. Keaton is a great Batman. A dark and brooding personality that works. Too short? Talk about nitpicking. You barely notice unless you're a rabid comic fan. You'd not only have to make Batman tall but unrealistically ripped. Characters are exagerrated in comic books.

And the music is perfect.

Good cinema, still bad protrayal, those are my guns still.
BR: Better cinema, even worse protaryal.

In my opinion one of the biggest reasons Batman fans stick by B89 so faithfully is because it was the first time that a darker Batman was brought to either television or the movie screen. Michael Keaton was the first serious Batman, which explains how many think that there can't be any better than him. And of course some still don't understand why he was cast. I agree completely with Sairus on the fact that from a film standpoint, they were both good. To this day I can sit down and watch B89 and BR and still enjoy them. But, as a Batman fan, I can't help but cringe. While back in '89 it was great to see a version of Batman where when he hit someone it didn't flash "ZAP" across the screen. But, as time went on and after repeat viewings, I realized that it wasn't that good of a Batman movie.

In terms of a BATMAN MOVIE I think you can lump Batman Returns and Batman and Robin in the same category. Horrible. I challenge anyone who is a true fan of Batman (I tried not to say batfan or "batman fan") to watch BR and truthfully say that they just saw the Dark Knight on the big screen. From a cinematic point of view BR is great. Where as B89 was a great gothic atmosphere, BR thrust Batman into this sort of, macabre German Expressionist opera with Catwoman and Penguin... and Max Shreck? It's even possible to almost pinpoint the moment with BR was a doomed Batfilm: When B89 became a monster hit beyond anything WB dreamed of. Once that happened, they said "Gee, people really do love this dark stuff," and with that, gave almost complete creative control to Burton, who didn't even want to do another Batman movie. In a movie that's adapted from something, especially a character like Batman, who over almost 70 years has barely changed from his core idea, the director can't sacrifice the character and the history for his vision. He did that to an extent in B89, and really hit us in the face with BR.

Buffys
This recent anti-batman (the first one) sentiment is just normal backlash. There are definitely things in it that don't hold up but it single handedly brought about the huge comic book movie influx happening today (for good or for bad). Maybe some are too young to remember but when that came out there was simply nothing else like it, at the time it had almost as groundbreaking a feel as the first matrix.

I agree with this almost completely.
Burton's Batman is a bit of a mess, but to be fair it was a trendsetter-the only previous successful hero franchise at that point was Superman, and those films had fizzled 2 years prior. Plus does Tim make films for us? Or does he just follow his heart?

Points to consider there.

I think B89 is flawed (yes, me another Returns die-hard) but it's still one of the better superhero movies. A great film, a good superhero film, an OK Bat-flick.

Completely agree

Most of the negativity of "Batman" seems to be just a difference of how to look at movies in general. Judging it for what it isn't, rather than what it is. Judging it on what it does wrong rather than juding it on what it does right.

I mean, I'm a huge Batman fan. He's my favorite superhero, actually, probably my favorite fictional character ever truth be told. I mean, I appreciate "The Killing Joke", love "Year One" and "Dark Knight Returns", and countless comics in between.

So I don't think I'm a Batman cretin if I enjoy the hell out of this film. Sure Charles, "Dark Knight Returns" had a ton to do with Batman's darker, modern day image, but not the public at large. When this film got made, people still associated Batman with the 66 version. This movie made "Batman Begins" possible, and altered the tone of the comics as well.

There are definitely basic cinematic problems with the film (some bad characters, dialogue, plotting issues, etc.) but I think there's a ton to like. Keaton's Batman is dead on, and the character is treated with great respect. Elfman's score is perfection. It is indeed endlessly quotable, some absolutely classic scenes and images, and just overall pretty darn fun.

I think its best to think of the films as sort of an Elseworlds tale. That way some of the cinematic liberties (Joker kills Bruce's parents; Batman "kills") can be enjoyed. Do you all hate the animated Joker? Because in tone he's a lot closer to Nicholson's Joker than the sadistic, rape Batgirl "Killing Joke" version. The Joker looks great, Nicholson is genuinely funny to me, and I think he works. But hey, that's me.

No, this is not the best superhero film. "Superman: The Movie", "Spider-Man", and "X2" are all better. But this is a persona favorite, and its one of the most fun.