Suggestion

How about constructive criticism?

What's the point of suggesting that something improve if you don't give any specifics? What don't you like, what would you like?

Honestly. Your post as-is just criticizes. Try making suggestions.

That seems pretty constructive to me. It's not like he just said "Creature Corner is teh suck LOLLZORZ!".

I believe the hidden message is this: Update more often.

Agreed. And I think the deafening chorus of silence when the Rantress announced her return speaks volumes as well.

You may not be the old guard, and no one's saying you should have to be. But try looking at what the old guard do without having any Hollywood connections (you're tied to some make up guys, right ?) over at Dread Central, say. Hell even British site Sexgoremutants is more thoroughly thoughtout. It's not difficult to see that real news on a news site is desirable. Editorialised, as well, helps. Properly. From the Fog story:


In addition, why should the readers tell you how to run the site. If you can't work it out partly for yourselves (content, content, content) maybe it's not the gig for you.

What don't people like ? Most of the recycled news that isn't spun in a different way with comment or insight, Robyn's misguided Rants, the relative non-presence of anyone "in charge" on the message boards either in conversation or provoking/leading conversations/discussion...in general, the community feels very uncommuned with. Honestly there are blogs with more of a vibe than CC at the moment.

Okay...

I don't run the site.

My point is, if you have a complaint, it's helpful to state what you'd rather see. Just saying that the site has gone downhill isn't actually saying anything.

Also, posting suggestions (even real ones) on a message board is non-productive. Emailing the site runners might work.

I'm done here.

He didn't just say the site had gone downhill. He said that it wasn't updated enough and the news is recycled. Flip that around, and I think you'll find that the constructive criticism that can be gleaned from the post is that he'd like to see more updates, and more fresh content (or at least some sort of opinion) rather than links to other sites.

Mind-boggling. What's a message board for if not to provide a forum for discourse between the readers and editors?

Of course, they'd actually have to post on it first...

You may not run the site, but you're tight with those that do. Point them toward forums on the top menu there. Discussion is so much better when it the community that's doing it, for the bettement of itself, than a one on one that'll just be railroaded by statments unseen by anyone else like:

"I really think that if you give it time you will find yourself transfixed."

or my (pertinent) favourite:

"give us some time, let us find our style and pace and then pick us apart. I really think that after only one week, any criticism is premature."

(that last one dated 15/9/2004, about 7 1/2 months ago, directed toward me in a private email).

Something's amiss here, and it's in no way the fault of the Creature Corner readers. To suggest otherwise is a little insulting.

Point taken. (Yes, I know I said I was done here. I lied. I was done feeling defensive. I'm going to try taken my own advice and being constructive.)

I can't control how often the site is updated, and I doubt that Dave and Patrick can control how often they are privy to new information. I think the site is outstanding, especially considering the fact that until a month ago everyone at CC was on the east coast, and the majority of industry events are in LA.


But... If you know that Dave doesn't read the message boards, how will posting on them get information to him?

Tell you what. Make suggestions. I can't make any guarantees whatsoever, but I'll read them. I don't have access to breaking news, but if there's something going on that you (anyone) want to read more about, say so. I'll see what I can do.

I honestly did not intend to suggest that, and I apologize if it sounded like I was.

You realise that until last year (and then only in the context of one parttime contributor), none of the CHUD or old CC staff were anywhere near LA too, right ? Dave Davis is Boston based. Devin NYC. Butane and Rotten at Dread Central are Boston and Michigan (I think) respectively. Garth Franklin is in Australia ! It's not about proximity. It's about willingness to read all trades and news sites and dig out the information and post it in an intelligent, thought provoking way within the context of the genre as it stands.

Do the staff really not read the boards?

I have no idea about anyone but me (I obviously do read them). I thought that's what Dan Whitehead was saying, but I'm not sure it was.

It's just CHUD and CC have always had a symbiotic relationship with the boards, admittedly sometimes too much in the case of CHUD. I mean, when I wrote stuff for either CHUD or CC, I always posted asking for feedback, just to gauge reactions to what really gets people. And they're usually pretty constructive.

What exactly is the connection between CHUD and the Corner?

Nick owns them both.

Not to sound like a smart-ass, but why doesn't he just close the Corner down? It's just awful and I can't imagine it's generating any income. Or perhaps it is. That's the only reason I could see for his allowing it to continue.

Yes. In all honesty the site has become a void. It was riding on the popularity that it had a year ago, but now it's a void.

I'm confused.

Do people want the site to improve, or to close down?

I don't see how you can have it both ways.

If you want it to improve, make suggestions. I think I get what you think is wrong with the site. So what would you like to see?

Speaking for myself, you might as well trash the whole thing. The guys that made the Corner good are doing their thing over at Dread Central.
Of course this is all academic for me since I stopped visiting the Corner long ago. I'm only interested enough to post here because I used to like the Corner and find it's prolonged existence a curious phenomenon.

And by the way, it's clear this is just lip service. Readers were asked for suggestions the last time this came up and nothing happened. You guys obviously don't care enough about what you're doing to make the Corner work.

Since you don't read the site, please allow me to explain to you that I just started writing for it. Less than a month ago. I haven't had time to make a hefty contribution. I'm doing my best and I do care. I can only work with what's available to me. I repeat: I am not running this site. I have ZERO control over content. But if someone were to say to me, Hey Annika, how about something on the Call of Cthulu silent movie? then I could try to contact those crazy cocksuckers and ask for an interview or something. No one is making suggestions. Just attacking the site owners, and, inexplicably, me. Your loss.

You don't know me. You don't know if I am sincere or not. If you don't care to give me the benefit of the doubt, fuck off.

Seriously, Nick, dump these children.

Yeah, that's a good call, Clark. Sorry. Thread caught my interest because, you know, Ryan and I poured our heart and soul into the site (sounds cheesy, I know, but that's the case) and to see it plumment so steadily is still sad to me.

But no one running the site cares, so what's the point?

That's not constructive criticism - that's flat out telling you what to do. If you know there's a silent Call of Cthulhu movie being made, why should you need the readers to ask you to cover it? If it's out there, find it, tell us about it, and then the interaction between readers and writers can begin.

People have made suggestions, and people are making suggestions, but they've fallen on deaf ears. The guys who run the site don't post here, and their response to these same criticisms months ago was "give us time".

They've had time. The site has become characterless and stale, and if nobody behind the scenes knows how to change that then all the constructive criticism in the world won't make any difference.

And, yes, it is our loss. We used to have a kick-ass horror website, with a vibrant and active message board community, and a great many friends and connections were made through it.

We don't have that any more.

No, we don't know you. That's the problem. There's no interaction, no sense of community. You're a name on the screen who started writing for the site a few months ago, and is now telling long time readers to "fuck off".

Great PR job. Well done.

I pretty much gave up on the CC, months ago. I still have a fondness for site and would like to see it not go under. I respect the opinions of Dan, Staxboy, Fett, and many of the others that have posted in this thread and feel that they are valuable contributers to these boards and the site. Those of you that are running CC should listen to them. They obviously care about the site and are trying to help.

Dreher through a hissy-fit about six months ago, and hasn't visited the boards since.

Since the new staff took over, I haven't once seen any evidence that any of them have any interest in, or knowlege of, the horror genre whatsoever.

Constructive criticism time:
Here is a copy of this article with my notes.

GRABOWSKY TO WRITE NEXT HALLOWEEN FILM?
<A headline like this only works if the person in question is recognizable to the reading audience>
by Dave Dreher

Source: Official Site

05.06.2005 -

Ever hear the name Nicholas Grabowsky? <Of course not.> If not, get used to it. <Get used to not ever hearing of him? I'm sure that won't be a problem.>

Nick checked in today with some pretty major news.<You see, Dave, this is major to him. Not me.> The biggest scoop is that he is in talks to write the next Halloween film.<He might be writing the 8th sequel to one of the worst horror franchises in history? What a scoop.> Here it the words straight from the man: <Pure grammatic gold.>

Also, Nick <Is he speaking in third person? Very confusing.> is meeting with producers to write the next Michael Myers flick this summer. His ideas are innovative, and go well beyond the story into merchandising and offshoot novels.<Whose ideas? Michael Myers? Or is Nick still speaking in the third person?> Major players in the Halloween movies history are behind him <I give up.> on this, and be sure to check out his interviews on the upcoming AMC special/DVD release Halloween: 25 Years of Terror, coming soon. <Way to cram two subjects into one sentence. This guy should be writing the next Halloween.>

Seems like he <Nice.> first solid piece of news on Halloween 9 we have seen.

It has also being announced <Nice again.> that he has signed on with Apprehensive Films to direct a yet to be determined horror short and are in talks to do a feature film. <Wow. That sentence contains 0% news.>

Exciting times for Mr. Grabowsky. <Perhaps you could tell me why I should care...?>

You can head on over to his official website for all the gory details <Very clever play on words there. You really should be writing for Fangoria.> on his current projects, past works and future efforts.

Keep an eye on this man, he is going to be a major player. <Hmmm. If I didn't know any better, I'd say the author of this piece might just know this Mr. Grabowsky personally.>


Aside to Nick (Nunziata, not Grabowsky)- For god's sake, stop this insanity!

From:
http://www.creature-corner.com/?type=reviews&id=548
"What made Riding the Bullet such a great short story is precisely the fact that it was a short story, nothing more. The story was so atmospheric and minor in feel and tone, but what made the story so great was that it felt like King wrote the story with the purest of motives with nary a thought of a possible film version in mind. Stephen King wrote Riding the Bullet because the story was obviously close to his heart. "

Is it legal to type the word story so many times in just three sentences?

"There’s all the difference in the world between these two plot descriptions and the biggest problem with Garris’ version is that his film too often avoids the story’s central relationship in favor of unnecessary plot developments and character arcs that bring the story to feature length, yes, but completely take the viewer, and the reader, out of the story, make us forget about the relationship between Alan and his mother. "

Holy fuck!

I can't believe we got called impolite trolls on the main page.

Thank you. Except for that last aside (why harp on the site closing? It isn't going to), I appreciate that you're actually giving an example here.

I read a lot of websites. Movie sites, horror sites, cooking sites, personal sites...you name it. Typos and iffy grammar are everywhere. It usually drives me nuts. But I can't understand how that is more important than getting news out quickly. (Your main complaint with the article seems to be that you don't consider it news at all, but maybe it is to other people.) The main theme of this thread seems to be that the site isn't updated frequently enugh and that the news is old by the time it's posted. So if articles go up more quickly but aren't written perfectly... I don't think it's a real problem. I mean, it seems to be what people are asking for.

Personally, I'm asking for interesting and better-written articles rather than quick updates. I'd rather see retro updates on the Universal flicks or stuff like Jack Arnold's giant bug movies or even KINGDOM OF THE SPIDERS instead of yet another article on some guy who might be writing HALLOWEEN 14. I'm asking for a site that's fun to visit.

Like Nick Grabowsky.

C'mon, Annika. You seem like a reasonably intelligent person (I read your last review and you're the only one here taking the heat). Surely you can recognize an article written solely to promote someone's buddy. It's not news. And it doesn't just have a few typos, it's written atrociously.
Forward your resume to Dread-Central or Bloody Disgusting and jump this sinking ship while you can.

I just found that article now.
What a deluded cry-baby.

Call me an optimist, but I'd rather stay here and help make Creature Corner as good as Dread Central and Bloody Disgusting.

I can't believe that article. I mean, seriously...what the fuck?

Hey, Dave - hope you're reading. Maybe you can respond in another article?

Help me out here. Where in this thread has anyone "chanted" that you suck?

No, she popped into this thread to try and write off reader concerns.

She had her head bitten off? Where?

Is there some alternate version of this thread that you're reading? You make it sound like she started a thread to say hello and we vicious bastards jumped all over her. The truth is closer to the the other way around - legitimate gripes were made, and she responded with deflections and insults.

Of course, she had to - you no longer deem the message board important enough to grace with your presence it seems.

The boards are not alive. That's the problem. They've all but dried up. You inherited a thriving horror community and you've let it shrivel and die, and any time somebody tries to broach the subject you cry "give us time" and accuse people of expecting Johnny and Ryan v2.0.

Articles like this prove that you've got no interest in what remains of the Creature Corner community, and have no interest in engaging with the message boards of your own website.

If the only defense you have against criticism is to misrepresent those making valid points as abusive assholes, even when these "dweebs and jerks" were once regular contributors, and your own writers are telling the readers to "fuck off"...

You just don't get it. You really don't.

RIP Creature Corner.

Call me a pessimist, but I doubt the readers will do the same.

Which is it ? Are you the pro or are they.

Johnny and Ryan are not "pros" (and maybe this is miscontruing you use of word). They have full time jobs but through dedication to their intentions get up at the crack of dawn to give the readers they earned very quickly a little intelligent genre criticism. You seem to be the pro at this. At least that's what your claim seems to indicate. Why aren't you leading the way ?

I'm not a dweeb, troll or a jerk (though maybe an asshole). I gain nothing if I speak up, except a site that might be welcoming, literate, incisive and witty about the genre I love (and work in on occasion). I find it insulting that rather than admit any potential flaws, you play the defensive "you're all idiots" card.

Not particularly professional.

Quote the post that says "Dave sucks". There isn't one. But paint the "needless troll" picture if it makes you feel better about not running a particularly well oiled site. (That's nothing to do with a qualitative assessment of you vs any other web master on the net. It's purely an objective refelection of content.) If Johnny and Ryan had never existed, it doesn't change the fact that the content is no longer very well written. Do you see how this is different from me saying "Dave sucks...". If you don't, there's not much point anyone continuing reading or commenting who wants tip-top fan journalism. "Anyone" incidentally, which includes industry folk, technical folk, the critical community, casual readers and fanboys. All have read at one time or another.

You see, there's the thing. I can count on my two hands how many of the fine, intelligent, informed and literate posters that were posting for the first three years I myself posted here that are still posting here. They're gone. And there's a glaringly obvious reason for it.

You want criticism but you don't want it to be negative. You want feedback but you don't want it to question the writing, content or attitude of the site or its staff. You want readers but you don't want them to desire anything better than the scant time you seem to devote to what they're reading.

In short what you're saying is: "if you don't like it, tough shit and fuck off."

You've pretty much taken hold of completely the wrong end of the customer relations broom handle. Because you do have customers, if you weren't aware. Because although it's a free site the advertisers at the top there need traffic. Traffic equals sales. Readers equal traffic. Good content equals readers.

Is this lucid, honest and well intentioned enough for you ? Or is it the words of a saboteur ?

Think about it.

Incidentally, I honestly think Richard Schellenbach's Last Writes column is perhaps the only thing of note in the contemporary coverage. Try and build on that ?

It shouldn't be an either/or situation.

Putting aside the fact that it takes all of two seconds to run a piece through Word's grammar and spelling checks, since when is the news that some anonymous guy might be writing the 9th Halloween movie the sort of red hot scoop that needs to be rushed onto the page, readability be damned?

You seem to be saying that a website can either deliver the news on time, or it can deliver it spelled correctly, but not both.

That's insane.

Stop trolling, Strax.

Is this a present or past tense statement? Because I wonder if that's one of the things - that CC has lost out because the people running it aren't dedicated to one site like Johnny and Ryan were. It's all very well that you can run Gunnar Hansen.com, but when it becomes a task rather than a labour of love, like it sounds, perhaps that might be the time to take a step back and reaffirm your intentions.

Whitehead sucks.

It's very telling that the longest most impassioned articles have nothing to do with horror, but everything to do with telling the readers to fuck off.

You know, further scrutiny has revealed the Corner to be better than I thought.
This particular installment of Robyn's Rants could be the greatest one yet. Witness her trials and triumphs as she demands more pizza for the extras and stage hands!
ROBYN'S RANTS: BACK AND PISSED!!

Hey, the money's good. What's a boy to do?

I am not the hugest horror fan in the world, but it does make me sad to see this site suffer. Nick, do you have any input into CC anymore? Any way you can shake things up a bit and maybe salvage this bitch? It is indeed quite dumb when the editor blames the readers for their short-comings. I am not a troll, but seriously, how much effort does it take to update a site properly? When I was doing DVD news for CHUD I was posting 4-5 new stories every two days. All gramatically correct. All weird and wonderful. It ended up that I couldn't maintain the updates because of work commitments, etc. But at one point I was doing it pretty much on my own. you have what, 3 staff now? Even if you guys did one story each every two days that would be leaps and bounds above the current state of the site. And get rid of your guest commentator. She is a vacuous bit.

It's not either/or. My point is that the posters in this thread said they wanted news more quickly. A news item got posted quickly. The complaint immediately switched to bad writing. I do think articles and news should be written well. But from this example, it looks like people just want something to complain about.

As for whether it is news, who knows? What if Nicholas Grabowsky does write the next Halloween? Then it won't look so stupid to have rushed the news.

And to reply to two posts in one, I think Dave's comment about my head being bitten off was in reference to comments like BobClark's "it's clear this is just lip service. Readers were asked for suggestions the last time this came up and nothing happened. You guys obviously don't care enough about what you're doing to make the Corner work." and your (albeit written after his rant) "she popped into this thread to try and write off reader concerns." But don't worry. My head is still firmly attached. It would take a lot more than a couple of silly pre-conceived ideas about my intentions to damage me.