Suggestion - Page 2

That's the thing - we don't need to want something to complain about, because for a while, the CC has already given us a consistent reason to do it.

Again, you're making out about this big hot news item that is supposed to allay the fans - a news story about HALLOWEEN 9. For christ sakes, how many REAL horror fans really care about whether Moustapha Akkad can resurrrect Donald Pleasance's corpse up for another round of shape-hunting? Nobody outside of HAM (no offence meant Jason, just an observation on the Danielle love) has cared about that franchise since SEASON OF THE WITCH. If you took a poll on this site, you'd get maybe a 5% interest ratio.

Maybe we might have been a bit more responsive if the article had some interest and bite to it. For example, a Faraciesque riff on how the franchise sucks, or even a few ideas on how to rejuvenate this long-tired horse, instead of 'Hot news - guy to write Halloween 9 etc etc.

Yes it will. Because nobody gives a shit who writes that dreck.

Quick poll: who wrote Halloween: Resurrection ? (no imdbing). You see, it's like scooping that Hellraiser xyz is lensing soon with some faceless writer no one's heard of.

You need a hook for a story. Something to make the reader care about the writing. That's as true for non-fiction as for fiction.

Make his rise from nowhere to possible-Halloween scribe the focus of the story. At least tell us how he got there. Don't just give us a link expeting us to find out for ourselves who he is. By that rationale, I "reported" on 5 top stories/hot scoops this morning: including but not limited to a spectacular montage of film credits, Paris Hilton's tits and a flying dog's foray into the upper atmosphere.

Why not ask Grabowsky who it feels to be considered after tha fate that befell Dan Farrands for instance. Or Scott Rosenberg. Why not do a recap of those notorious incidents. That would have made the article:

a) meatier

and

b) have something of a point/focus/arc.

I will takes pains to point out that this suggestion comes off the top of my head as a purely non-professional. For someone who runs a lot of websites, it should be the standard procedure.

In addition, the comparison between this thread, formed of long time readers and more than a couple of former contributors (and one co-editor with Nick of a magazine) and Savini/Romero-bashing by non-contributing, faceless posters is fankly untenable. This is purely about the site. Unfortunately, that means someone must be accountable. And as BobClark somewhat cantankerously -- though truthfully -- points out, the knee-jerk response by the powers that be in a snotty article with no basis in fact is pretty disgraceful and extraordinarily telling.

We don't all have the luxury of unrespondable editorial invective, so we use the attached message board. Why can't Dave simply come in here and confront the problem in a discussion forum ? Perhaps he sees the problem staring him in the face and defiantly refuses to budge on the position ? I'll gladly hear and welcome something to the contrary.

This has been going on for over 7 months. Magazines launch, flounder and fold in less time.

The complaint didn't "immediately" switch. They are two seperate, but equally valid, complaints. And, sorry, you did say that it was either/or - "So if articles go up more quickly but aren't written perfectly... I don't think it's a real problem". You're saying that articles can go up quickly, but that we shouldn't expect them to be well-written if that's the case.

That makes no sense. There's no reason to rush a story that's about something that might happen. And that's ignoring the fact that rushing a story still shouldn't excuse sloppy writing. Or that Nicholas Grabowsky isn't news. He's not on IMDB. His website gives no information about what he's done previously.

I don't want to get hung up on dissecting one story, but there's no way that some unproduced writer e-mailling to say that he might write a Halloween sequel should be considered news. At the least it smacks of a guy trying to get his name around town, and at the most it looks like Creature Corner is complicit in trying to make out he's somebody we should be paying attention to.

How do either of those examples equal "biting your head off"?

Answer: they don't.

If anyone was being snippy and rude, it was you. But it clearly suits Dave's persecution complex to completely misrepresent something that is here for all to see - we're the ungrateful whining assholes, and you're the innocent and polite eager-to-please new girl who fell into our clutches.

And here's what you - and certainly Dave - don't seem to understand.

I used to write for Creature Corner. So did Strax. So did Fett. We didn't put in anything like the manhours that Johnny and Ryan did, but we were a small part of it, and proud to be. There was a sense of community. People got involved. There was a flow of opinion and information between the boards and the site, like the flow of blood between the heart and the brain.

It was great, and a lot of people have very fond memories of it. That doesn't mean that any change would automatically be dismissed and all of us have given the new team over six months to find their groove.

But they haven't, and little tantrums like Dave's crybaby article just show that there isn't any desire to do so.

I couldn't tell you what Dave's favourite horror movie is. Who his fave horror actor is. What his favourite Jason kill was, or which horror flicks he's looking forward to.

He's just some guy, throwing half-hearted scraps and expecting the readers to gobble them up without complaint.

Like BobClark said above, nothing is more revealing than the fact that the most in-depth article on the site in recent memory is one complaining about readers complaining, openly lying about our conduct and calling us names for doing so.

I respect the fact that you're at least in here, making your case and responding to people. But, frankly, you seem to be making excuses for an absent and belligerent boss more than making valid points backed up by facts.

So if I complained that I wasn't getting fed and then someone fed me magotty bread I shouldn't complain? As someone who has actually written one or two book reviews for the corner I can agree with the comments here. It doesn't matter to me really that Johnny and Ryan aren't here anymore. As was said if I want to read them I know where to find them. In there absence the "writers" here can no doubt find the F7 key on their keyboard. It's all about communication. Even if you can't write stuff that anyone cares a flip about, at least you can communicate the fluff clearly.

Dan stop making sense, now.

Also, before the undoubted cry of "Well why don't you write something for the Corner instead of bitching about how you used to?" rings out, Ill answer very simpley: I (and I suspect Fett, Dan and Capt E) don't want anything I write to be lumped in with some poorly fomated, questionably syntaxed, rarely insightful and appallingly spelt drivel about pizza and/or dweebs.

I have a question: if 98% of people are fine about the Corner, why has no one form the 1000s of members of the CHUD community chimed in and leapt to its defense save for one of the editor's friends ?

Look here it is, the silence speaks volumes. I fully expect us to be viewed as mere internal parasites feasting upon the marrow-fat of good-hearted endeavours. And I've no doubt these endeavours are good-hearted. You want a kick ass site. Of course, why wouldn't you. But everytime you swipe defensively at founded, albeit hard-to-hear negative feedback, you tap away at that illusion a little more toward shattering point. No one like negatives, of course. But that doesn't mean people shouldn't mention them ? We should just let it ride until it's like the final frame of The Last Picture Show ?

But it's plain to see it isn't a kick ass site anymore. Nor does it seem to be a wanna-be kick-ass site that just having teething problems, like The Movie Revelations or something. And that's not the fault of trolls, readers or long time posters. The main CHUD site has/had enough trolls to split Leo McKern's wazzoo but still maintains coverage like gangbusters like it always did. That's a poor excuse. In fact, the more popular you are, the more trolls you'll attract. Fact. That you don't have any at all, is pretty indicative of how low on the radar you are compared to what CC was. Even before Johnny and Ryan joined. I mean, they had to come from somewhere. Why do you think they hung around and honed their skills ? Because it was a decent site they thought they might be able to contribute to. They were right because their hard work paid off and they became what they are. Apparently, that experience is something the team here already possess. Do you see the disparity in that and the excuses given about the old guard ?

Our criticism maybe shot through frustration, but every word of Dan's, mine and Capt E's is genuine, informed and honest feedback. We simply cannot be held accountable for the fact that what we're feeding back to is rapidly becoming a lost cause.

There was one other update yesterday:

Followed by a cut 'n' paste synopsis. End of article.

The fact is no amount of leeway, time or patience we as a community give can alter the fact that that just isn't very good writing. It's competent and spelt right, sure, but it's dull, laboured and devoid of any personality. It's an automated response or something one might expect from a teenage message board post.

I rapidly starting to think that the problem here is nothing to do with access to talent or to the trade press (which is so easy to pinpoint on the net, it's not funny). Afterall, when you are or have been in a position to sit down with Romero and Savini, you're already a step ahead. You can't brag about that and then claim to not be professional or have access to stories. Contacts: use them.

What the problem is is honest to goodness editorial skills (and in some, not all, contributor's cases, writing skills - and no I'm not going to say which ones, that much should be obvious to a good editorial team). I'm afraid the "they're not professional writers" excuse can't cut it any more either. No one who works consistently for CHUD (save possibly one or two contributors) is a "professional" writer. But they can write. And and on a text base website, shouldn't that be paramount ?

But hey, I'm just mean-spiritedly pissing into empty wind while the editorial team email back and forth about what a dweeb I am, right ? Yeah. Make sure you mention the traffic monitors in between the insults, guys.

I don't think even that is accurate, Strax. At least not as far as this Dave guy is concerned.
From what he wrote, it sounds like this is just another stop on a group of sites he manages.
I doubt he could care less about this gig.

I'm willing to give benefit of the doubt for two reasons, Bob. Firstly so that it at least gives credence to the fact that this isn't an all out flaming troll based onslaught on our part (no matter how vitriolic our posts may have been taken as - and I'm sure I'ev been branded as such because of a sarcastic sig line as well...such is the faceless predictability of the 'net). Secondly, because it still has no impact whatsoever on the qualitative assessment of the site's content. Honestly, coupled with the partial résumé listed in that petty article, I'd say the problem is compounded by giving benefit of the doubt here.

It's a simple equation: intent + experience, incontrovertibly = [insert one's views on how the Corner is here]

And unless we can be shown a selection of suppotive emails from CC members berating us for speaking our minds, most people's answer is probably fairly predictable.

I totally agree...
If I used to come to CHUD 4-5 times a day, I'd at least stop off at the Corner 2-3...now I only come here if I see a post by an old regular...ie, very infrequently.

The new admins seem to have little idea about the posters, the genre, or what it takes to involve people in a site...I was expecting change, yet not total ineptness.
Trouble is, they don'y appear to want to make the site work...They just hang around waiting for news to come TO THEM, via us or some anonyomous poster, rather than looking for themselves...Hell, I reckon they could of leeched a bit off 'Dread Central' and not of lost half of the regulars here, and maybe added more, what with the boards being open to new subscribers again.

...and I don't feel sorry for 'Annika' at all...If she didn't want to be the mouth-piece during this, she didn't have to...the, ..."My name's Annika, ....I'm on work experience" vibe doesn't wash. Get off your ass and DO something!! Christ even on slow days (note, I said days not weeks, let alone months), and news was scarce, Ryan would go back to the vaults and challenge us with questions to be debated, laughter to be had, concepts to be perused...what have we had in over half a year?

A rapidly deflating balloon...and the remaining (I was going to say die-hard, but we're obviously trying to reanimate a mouldering corpse...and we know it) posters are being blamed for the Corner's failings?

Fuck that!

I would say let this site die with dignity...but that is long past.

Just sever the spinal column and cave in it's cranium, and let's forget there was ever something between 'Reader Reviews' and 'The Franchises'.

Please.

Sorry for me? I should hope not. Why should you? I'm a grown-up and can take care of myself. I am writing for CC because I want to. I am posting here because I want to. And by the way, no quotes necessary. It's my name.

I have no idea what you're trying to say, so I can't respond.

Well, I did the laundry, cooked lunch, and washed the dishes.

Is that not what you meant?

I also contacted a few people for possible interviews and did some research for an event I'm going to next week.

I find it so amusing that people (not just here) always seem to expect instant results. Has it occurred to you that I might have (gasp!) other obligations, or maybe even be writing stories for CC that I'm not going to post until they're finished?

Hardly! The posters are the ones who think the Corner is failing. I merely suggested that if people are unhappy with the site, they offer suggestions for improvement; hard to know what an audience wants if the audience only says what they don't want.

Also worth considering: Not everyone who reads the site posts here. I said something to my husband yesterday and he said, "Creature Corner has a message board?" He has been reading the site since it was Carl's Creature Corner. (Before you attack my husband's intelligence, he knew the board existed, but had never been to it.)

Give the new blood (well, the newest blood) a chance, people.

Didn't CHUD also have a decent SCI-FI site as well?....Can't remember what it was called...

So what are the other updater's excuses? And seriously I am glad that you find the fact that the site has gone to shit amusing. Seriously, this instills confidence.

Are you illiterate, or merely retarded? People have been saying what's wrong with the Creature Corner all thread. Here is a summary in big shiny letters so that you can understand:


1. No one seems to give a shit about updating the site on a regular (daily/semi-daily) basis.
2. The sense of community has been completely sapped by editors/workers who don't hang out on the boards/contribute to any discussions.
3. The content that does get put up is a direct transcription of whatever the updater finds, with ZERO personality or meaningful opinion.
4. The editor/staff, rather than take anything into consideration from people who used to love the site, say stupid shit like you have with this last post.


I'd tell you how to fix all of these problems, but certainly even you aren't that retarded.

I challenge you to share even one positive e-mail or phone call transcription/anecdote that praises what you all have done with the Corner since Butane and Rotten and GirlCreature left. My guess? Your only audience all post here or USED to post here. Also, since I've been around the joint (Jan 2000, roughly), there was never any such thing as Carl's Creature Corner. It's always been a part of CHUD.

And the Sci-Fi site mentioned above was called the Sci-Fighter, and died because of me/my lack of effort.

You found me out.

I'm illiterate.

The most annoying thing being, she just wants it for her 'e-CV'...Ryan, John and Girl knew what the punters wanted...these hallooes seem intent on us sufferring what 'Scream-Queens' dislike about the catering on the set.


...The Horror...

The Sci-Fighter, which I think has passed on.

To be honest, I don't see the need for all the appendages. CHUD is a MOVIE site, so can't it cover sci-fi, horror, and upcoming films without needing the Fighter, the Corner, and Fetal? Couldn't all the effort being put into making two or three great appendages be channeled into making CHUD itself better?

I just visited the site for the first time in six months. Annika, at the very least, seems to be putting some real effort into her stuff. Nice to see someone who seems to give a shit, welcome aboard, and all of that good stuff.

Drehler is a douchebag, and he's single-handedly ruined the Corner. His "articles" are just as laughable as they were seven months ago, but now he no longer has the excuse of "finding his groove" or whatever. How long does it take to figure out what commas or apostraphes do? Or the benefit of providing an opinion? Or why posting interesting news in a timely fashion is a good idea? Or what it means when you type something in Microsoft Word and half of the words are underlined with red and green lines?

Ruining the greatness of the Corner was a nasty bit of work, but I suppose you can't fault a guy for a lack of talent. But calling guys like Dan and Strax trolls and assholes for voicing their opinions? Man, that takes a special kind of motherfucker.

Can Drehler. Reboot the Corner. Fuck, hire Jaimepoole at this point...I'd rather read a twat with an honest, passionate, knee-jerk reaction (even if it's the *wrong* reaction) than yet another droning cut-and-paste PR job or shillery for one of Dave's no-talent "industry" friends. This is just awful.

First off, to try and keep things from getting too nasty thus proving Dreher's sniffy dismissal of the boards correct, I want to reiterate that I respect Annika's willingness to come in here and at least debate this issue.

I also want Annika to realise that what we have here is a situation where long-time readers are unhappy with the state of the site, but having been publically snubbed by the site editor there's nowhere for that frustration to go.

We realise that you alone do not represent the entirety of the new Creature Corner staff, but as the only one with whom we can raise our concerns, you have to realise that it's going to fall disproportionately on your shoulders.

With that in mind...

Nobody has demanded instant results. Dave took over the site over half a year ago. That's ample time to work out any teething troubles and to establish a new style and personality for the site. Especially for someone who has run horror websites before.

But the site is still the same. The problems that hampered the site after the changeover are still there and, worst of all, there's been no noticeable attempt to address or improve the situation.

And through his sneering and deceitful editorial, Dave has shown that he considers passionate readers who demand the best from the site to be an annoyance to be avoided.

Actually, that's often the best way to find out what an audience wants. People will always be quicker to criticise than to compliment. That's just a fact of life. But by taking what people don't like, and doing it differently, you can evolve it into something they do like.

But the site isn't changing. It isn't growing. It isn't evolving. It's stayed the same, and the message from the people in charge seems to be "This is the way it is, if you don't like it then go away."

And that's an appalling way to run an audience-driven medium.

I hope not. Given the complete lack of activity on the boards, and the fact that this is the liveliest thread in months, that would put your readership somewhere in double figures.

In fact, I'd love to see the traffic stats for the site. Has it gained readers, or lost them, over the last six months? That would seem to be the litmus test.

Is this to be your new approach? Writing off the message boards themselves, and therefore any opinions raised on it, as irrelevant? For someone who runs "one of the largest and best genre boards around" that's a pretty bizarre attitude to take.

Can't you see that it's this that is making people angry and frustrated?

Not just that a site that was once vibrant and loaded with personality is now bland and generic, just another tick on the "to do" list of people whose attention seems to be elsewhere.

But that the members of the community they inherited, the readership they are supposed to serve, are being treated as an inconvenience to be dismissed and insulted, rather than as customers to be listened to.

There's an arrogance to that which staggers me. I'm not saying you should change every single thing that every single poster complains about. That's no way to run anything. But in the absence of any perceivable direction or character for the site, you can't just write off legitimate and well-reasoned observations - which this thread is full of, should you care to look - as empty whining or nasty trolling.

Herr Dreher should be thankful that he still has readers who give enough of a shit about the site to keep posting in this thread.

Admirable sentiments, Dan, but I think Drehler has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't give a damn what anybody thinks (which, as someone accurately pointed out, is a pretty shitty way to run a business that depends solely on reader loyalty and support). He chooses to take dishonest potshots at his critics on a soap box, knowing full well that nobody on the site itself will be able to contradict his lies. His only interest seems to be shilling for his friends and regurgitating news from other horror sites, and he's solely responsible for ruining my second-favorite site on the internet. I can't imagine why he has earned or would deserve respectful treatment at this point, and all of your dead-on feedback and criticism is just falling on deaf ears. At this point, scorn and abuse seems like a pretty logical course of action.

Or, in DAVESPEAK:

At this, point skorn and a buse seam, like a prtty logical coarse, visit Nicholas Grabowsky's website here, of action.

Thus turning his editorial from fiction into fact. I won't take that easy route.

Not too much to add other then to say that I came to the CHUD message boards (and CHUD.COM as well) from having been an avid daily reader of the old Creature Corner site. Eventually I found the message board, but it was always my second stop after reading CC. Now I still post on the MB (albeit sporadically), but today is the first time I've been to the Corner in about four months.

The site has the same issues it had in September when the old staff moved on: CC lacks personality and the author's writing styles are dry at best. I assume from the previous posts that the updates are still infrequent as well.

Bottom line: It could be ANY amateur horror website.

Well, that's just it. CHUD doesn't NEED an appendage devoted entirely to horror. But there is a culture of people who want such a website and community, and the old crew did such a good job that they became that community. They created that community. You see the result now. A year ago, this was THE most active forum on the CHUD boards. Now...tumbleweeds.

Just to clarify, that is absolutely not what I intended. I was merely giving an example of a regular and long-time site reader who is barely aware of the message boards. I don't think this board is irrelevant or I wouldn't bother reading it and attempting to talk with you. But I also realize that it is a small percentage of the readership of the site itself, and felt compelled to point that out.

I feel bad that people (no matter what percentage of the overall readership) are unhappy with the site. I love Creature Corner. I want people to be happy with it. I may not agree with the complaints, but I'm listening. Maybe down the road my contributions to the site will help change the way people feel. Maybe not. I'm just a correspondant - my job is to report on events in Los Angeles.

Serious question: what complaints do you NOT agree with? I'll re-iterate my request from above: share fan e-mail/stories from people who don't post here that show people like what is going on with CC at the moment. What you seem to forget is that for every one poster who makes an effort to comment on things there are like 20 others reading what's being posted. This is as pure of a statistical sample of public opinion on the CC that you will ever get. Unless I am completely wrong and you have a deluge of e-mail from non-posters claiming that they LOVE the site as itis now.

There's an even smaller percentage defending the site. In fact, apart from yourself, nobody appears to be joining in to counteract the complaints. Just a steady stream of longtime readers with the same story - used to read the site, used to post all the time, but I've drifted away.

Why is that?

Surely there should be at least one reader who is happy with the site, who knows about the message board and who feels compelled to jump to your defense?

If the site is going great, and we're just a minority of whining assholes (tm Dave Dreher) then, statistically speaking, this shouldn't be such a one-sided argument. But it is.

There's an old adage in business that for every unhappy customer who complains, there are dozens more who just quietly walk away and never come back. The number of people complaining is irrelevant - if they're all making the same complaint, then chances are they represent a silent number of readers who just gave up and went elsewhere without saying anything.

I appreciate that. And therein lies the problem - if the man who could do something about these complaints refuses to listen, and refuses to engage with his readers, then where does all this go?

Keep banging our heads against the wall - or just join the other readers and stop clicking that Creature Corner bookmark?

I'm really curious about Nick's take on all of this.
I mean it's ultimately his site, right?

I remember checking out the Creature Corner quite a long time ago, reading a couple of stories, and then never went back. To me, I get all the movie info I need from the CHUD, and various other entertainment news sites.

After reading this thread, I checked out the Creature Corner.

And now, here I sit, asking myself: How can I say what I want to say without offending the site contributors? Because obviously, any criticism sent their way is met with denial, anger, name-calling, and a general over-the-head misunderstanding of said constructive criticism.

So, I've decided that since there is no way to give constructive criticism to someone if they are not willing to accept the fact that they may be wrong, misguided, misinformed, pig-headed, or even english language challenged, I will not say anything.

Other than that site must be put down like the dying horse it is. Sorry.

$ 0.02

Nick's take? From what I hear, shame.

You know what bugs me the most about all this? Apparently they're actually getting paid to run this site...

I think the point has been made. Let's make like McReady and just wait and see what happens.

What the Hell!? Well I wish I could get paid to write what amounts to a crappy blog.

One thing that's been pissing me off about the site is something that nags me in pretty much every new article (of which, admittedly, there aren't many)...

Someone's gotta tell Dave that "YOUR" is not the same as "YOU'RE". Huge pet peeve of mine.

And I believe buttload is one word, not two.

Arg....I better stop now before I keep going. I'm seeing shit like "BOO TRAILER MAKES IT DEBUT"..... forget about the actual content of the articles themselves (how many alsos did you need in that one war of the worlds piece?)

Christ. Someone get this site a real editor. I'm suprised the title to the page isn't "You're site for horror". No wonder everyone jumped ship to Dread. Shame, really. Johnny and Ryan and the others worked their asses off for this site....I used to check it first thing in the morning every day....there was always interesting, well written stuff up. Not anymore. Ah well.

I'm thinking maybe piss and vinegar.

All yooo muther-FUCKERRRS - don't tell me whut I shoood doooooo....

I'm gonna' take yer fuckin' face an' ram it up yer BUTT - that's what I'm gonna' do.

I used to like Creeture Corner a long time ago. I don't like you anymore.

EATIN' GARBIDGE!!!!

Sorry. That was Alfredo. He cleans and he does housework - so what can you do...?

I don't know how privy these new kids are to what used to go on with the site - but anything Butane didn't have the right to take with him should be UP ON THAT SITE.

One of the great things about CHUD is that you can hit that "reviews" link and head through all this great criticism...and through the warm and fuzzy history of the site itself. You can hear a voice.

Same thing with interviews and commentary - it's all there. The site's personality.

Nothing from the old Corner exists anymore. And the replacement doesn't have the wit or heart - or the depth - the last batch did.

There are just a handful of reviews...next to no interviews...

Deepen the content. Deepen the meaning.

I agree.

It's funny. This kind of thing here is the kind of fun that's missing from the CC, and it's from a guy who isn't even an uber-horror nerd. If it's a slow day, why not have a reminiscing session about old horror memories like your first horror movie, or the time you tried to stab your sister after watching HALLOWEEN thirty times over.

Yep Charlize - that's TOTALLY what's missing...

I remember a guy what did stuff like that all the time at the CC...

Everybody chip in a fiver and we'll buy CC's freedom back (or bribe Johnny and Ryan to make a return).

That's a pretty good show he writes about there. Better than the overhyped Chiller-Con in North Jersey.