How does the OT look now?

Well, I think the bartenders reaction to the droids could be due to the Clone Wars and a resulting anti-droid mentality, but that's just me. I'm sure others find similiarly miniscule things...

What amazes me about the prequels is how incestuous and small they make the whole star wars universe seem. Why did Lucas have to make everyone related somehow? This is supposed to be about a whole damn galaxy far far away, but it turns out all the main players are from the same hood. If you look at the OT characters, there are only like one or two degrees of separation between them and just about any prequel character. It's queer I tell you, damn queer - in the old fashioned sense mind you.

In a trailer park far far away......... not to mention how Boba Fett's character was raped. Who thinks that he is not 'as cool' as he was before because of episode 2?

I think watching all the films in sequence robs the Original Trilogy of a lot of its strengths. As Devin pointed out in his review, when Vader strides onto the Tantive IV future viewers will no longer see an imposing and frightening figure - they'll see a petulant kid who got tricked into doing bad things.

They'll know that he is Luke's father, thus making much of ESB and the stuff on Dagobah redundant.

They'll know that Leia is Luke's sister, thus making the flirting and kissing between them even creepier than it is already - and making Luke's "revelation" of that fact in ROTJ, and Leia's non-reaction to the news, seem even more bizarre and out of place.

And then there's the whole series of minor dialogue inconsistencies with Obi Wan and the droids, Leia and her memories of her mother, Obi Wan saying Anakin was a "good friend" when he's spent the first three films barely tolerating the whiny little shit...

The films really only work if you watch them IV, V, VI, I, II, III - which kinda proves that there was never a long-term gameplan in mind, and the whole prequel trilogy has been an exercise in trying to make square narrative pegs fit into round plot holes.

It doesn't really affect me when I'm watching the OT. As far as I'm concerned, they're the same as they've always been. Then again, I rarely watch the prequels, but the way to do it is, like Dan said, IV - III.

It's hard to watch the Darth Vader without thinking of whiny Hayden Christiansen throwing a tantrum.

It's hard to watch Yoda as a mystic recluse on Dagobah without thinking of him bouncing off the walls like Sonic the Hedgehog.

One of the most kickass moments in the whole trilogy was finding out that Vader was Luke's father. That's ruined.

Most of all, I can't watch the OT without thinking about the prequels because Lucas has digitally inserted characters from it into movies that were made over 20 years ago. I literally turn off Jedi after the Death Star blows up now.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - the prequels tell a story that never needed to be told. They were a bad idea in theory, and even worse in practice. If Lucas had just followed Jedi with a new story, the damage would have been minimal. Unfortunately, there's no going back now.

If it's messed up the movies that much for you, maybe you didn't like them that much in the first place.

If it were up to me, I wouldnt have even shown Anakin having kids in the prequels, just slyly hinted at it, so that when people watch it in order, the surprise can still remain for people who didnt get the hint.

I would have done alot differently, heh, whats new? Luckily I've never been a major fan of this franchise so I'm not wounded like most others. I do however, as a writer and someday-filmmaker, do feel a tad annoyed by this whole affair simply because a whole lot of money and effort went into this crap.

Yeah, but it was all Lucas' money. And it probably matches how much he's put into the industry over the years. Compare that to Universal shelling out a shitload for Stephen Sommers and VAN HELSING.

Well, my feeling is more about observing a lost chance at greatness really, there was alot of talent behind the prequels, its just a shame it turned out like this.

Still, the studio remains happy I guess, everyone makes their money back on the prequels I guess, right?

I call bullshit on that statement.

There are plenty of fans who can no longer enjoy the OT because

A) you cannot erase a movie (the PT) from your memory, and the OT is changed in context and import once you view them.

2) With the reworking of the OT to contain elements of the PT films they have firmly cemented the two together, changing the dynamic again.

I totally agree it's a missed opportunity, but then, so are lots of things in life. It's harder being a fan too, but I guess you know that from some of the whining that goes on.

I am interested to know how much of a cut Fox'll get from the receipts.

Lucas stuffed up that character in ROTJ by giving him the lamest death possible (well, second lamest, after his father). Showing his backstory in AOTC was blatant fanboy-baiting and really gave what was essentially a peripheral character FAR more story than was deserved, a bit like Chewie in 3 (which doesn't sound like it fits in with what he is in the OT). I liked the Maori kid though, he was hard case.

I'm quite happy never to watch 1 & 2 again, they don't do anything for me, and from reading the CHUD reviews I'm not sure about 3 either. I hope its good enough to at least come close to the OT, but I guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Firstly, a lot of fans have the bootlegs of the OT, so there's that. Also, sure, there's stuff that's been added but at the end of the day, the films aren't that different. I think to say that they've been fucked up so much by the effect of the PT is to discredit the films themselves. I'm looking at this from a personal view. I watched the trilogy last week, and they still have an amazing ability to suck me into this world that exists of the OT, and keep me enthralled. Even the PT stuff doesn't make me blink, really. STAR WARS and EMPIRE (and to an extent, JEDI) are still wonderful movies, and saying you can't watch them because of the PT, that's more an issue with the fan than the movie, to me anyway.

THis is so much like the "The films have ruined the books for me" threads we got in the LOTR websites.
All I can say is that having the prequels ruin the original trilogy for you is a lot like have a novel you love ruined because the next novel the author writes is not as good.
Hey, even geniuses screw up some times. You got to accept that and move on. It's called growing up , something a lot of fans..including a lot with intellectual pretensions....seem to have a major problem doing.

Yeah, but the authors usually don't go back and rewrite the books to include what they fucked up in the follow ups....



just sayin'.


And I made the statement above that the fans who dislike the PT cannot enjoy the OT. That seems like too much of a deffinitive. I should have said "The fans who dislike the PT cannot enjoy the re-worked OT as much as they once had."

careful Cognizant about listing that you're a writer and hopeful filmmaker, people don't like that on these boards

I've definitely dissected the hell out of the PT to be sure as well as over-analyzing George's motives, who he is today as opposed to he was etc....

I haven't seen ROTS yet but I've realized a few things.

People take these films too far [including myself at times]

I realize without having seen ROTS that it's not going to be the saviour of the PT. I've read the reviews on this site of the new film and despite it seeming like the reviews are clones of each other, I feel genuinely bad for Lucas. He can't seem to win because fan boys desire perfection. I love the OT, love, love, love it but they were as full of many holes as the PT . Grant it, the PT holes are far different than the OT holes and it's obvious but I'm realizing more and more these are saturday morning serials with just as much cheesiness as those films.

Why can't we stop this and just enjoy? Yes, TPM & AOTC are hard to watch at times and laughable but damn it I love em' and they're star wars and they're unlike any other films.

This is just maddening.

The guy was taken out by a blind man with a stick. How cool was he to begin with?

As for ruining the "Vader revelation," is it a terrible scene every time you watch it now? Maybe some people have selective memories, but I know going into the Bespin scenes that Vader's moment is coming up, and it still packs a powerful punch. I highly doubt knowing about it because of the prequels is going to lessen the scene's impact.

And then there's the fact that "I am your father" is hugely engrained in pop-culture, so it's not exactly a secret.

I think the PT makes the OT look even better, regardless of the supposed ruined dramatic structure. It makes Luke seem even more like a hero and there seems to be much more at stake since you know the history of the bad guys now.

I agree that the Luke/Leia dynamic is creepy, but I try not to think about it too much and it seems to fade into the background.

In the end though I think Lucas didn't intend for people to take the prequels too seriously. They're simply stories told to be done with it, and served to push the technology further ahead. These were more agenda type movies than "stories I gotta tell". It was for personal closure.

Actually, Tolkien did this. After he wrote Fellowship, he rewrote the end of the riddle game between Bilbo and Gollum in the Hobbit to fit better with what happens in Lord of the Rings.
I'm sure others have done it too, I just don't have any specific examples other than that to use...

seriously, if that had really been his intention, it would have meant he knew jack shit about the SW fans! everything about SW is taken seriously by the fans. people dissect and discuss every little detail about the films, the characters, the toys, the games, you name it. you just need to count the number of SW threads on these boards to appreciate that.

Thank you.

And I have to disagree with Dan. The PT gretly enhances Vader. He is no longer a badass but a tragic character. A shell of a man, impriosned within the suit. It ads weight to his dilemma, when the emperor is frying Luke and his decision to finally abandon the slave mentality, stop looking for father figures and becoming a father himself, making what's essentialy the only sound decision of his sad life.

"You're not a REAL Star Wars fan if you don't like the prequels, man." Please stop.

Also, I never said I "can't" watch the OT anymore. I just said that it's hard to watch them without thinking of the childish, convoluted and wholly unnecessary prequels. Also, the prequels have multiple poop jokes in them.


If a cartoon musical number featuring a singing muppet doesn't lessen your enjoyment of a classic sci-fi movie, then more power to you, my friend.

I think the one major omission from the OT now is the moment when Vader realises Luke is his son. Does he know all along? Does he figure it out somewhere between ANH and ESB?

If you were to follow the dramatic arc of the prequels properly, that discovery should be central the OT and - given that the series is now about Anakin's fall and redemption - should be even more important than the "I am your father" line.

Luke finding out Vader is his father should pale alongside the moment when this genocidal monster discovers he has a son, because that's where his redemption begins.

By the way, if you watch Episode III, Obi-Wan and Anakin are good friends. The dynamic is vastly different it his film, compared to Episode II.
The problem was that Obi-Wan couldn't expres his love until it was too late, due to the Jedi nonsense of non-attachement.

His redemption begins when he watches his son attempt suicide, rather than join him and ends when his son refuses to give in to his anger and kill him. Those are the important points. When Vader first discovers Luke's existence he is only viewing him as a means to an end: Killing the Emperor and ruling together the Empire.

You mean he doesn't realise that a kid from Tatooine called Skywalker is related to him?

(which, lets face it, is a rather enormous flaw in the plan to hide the twins. Leia gets a new name and life as a princess, Luke gets to stay with Vader's step-brother near his old house)

SPOILERS FOR EPISODE III
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Yoda and Obi-Wan are careful to give Padme the appearance that she died pregnant. Vader has no reason to suspect that she gave birth before she died. Therefore, he's oblivious to the fact that his offspring survived and has no reason to search for them. Not ot mention that he didn't even attend the funeral (how weird would that be?)
He only puts two and two together when he finds out that a kid from Tattoine, called Skywalker, blew up the Death Star and that happens between Episodes IV and V.
Furhtermore, he never knew that his wife carried twins. That's why he only finds out about Leia during this duel with Luke.
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Which is a pivotal moment that deserves to be in the movies - if only so the audience isn't left going "Huh? When did he find out Luke was his son?"

If they go to great pains to hide this information, then surely it stands to reason that it's a plot point that should be resolved on-screen.

Sometimes I worry about some of you guys.

Well, you can't blame Lucas for this, unless you consider the whole concept of the prequels being fundamentally and irreversibly flawed. We knew that's the way things happened since 1980.

However, I disagree on the necessity of that scene. The OT is Luke's story. The important thing is him finding out and the decision he will have to take. Will he fail, the same way his father did? By the time the truth is revealed, he has begun his slide down a slippery slope, in a very similar manner.
Will he fight his own father to the death?

Luke's journey is built to echo his father's. Only in the end of the saga the two stories connect fully and Luke's success where his father failed redeem Anakin. And with that, the circle is complete.

Besides, the reason Vader learns of Luke's identity is because he appears in the public light, instead of living in obscurity as a farm boy in the ass end of the galaxy. Why do you think Owen didn't want Luke to go to the Academy?

I don't even like the prequels. My comment was absolutely nothing of the sort of what you said, so please don't give me that shtick.

Also, is Lapti Nek really that much better than Jedi Rocks? Personally, I think they're both shit and it was an incredibly bad move to put them in the film in the first place.

It only makes sense that the PT be viewed after the OT as sequels, even though chronologically they occur beforehand. I'm avoiding all spoilers for ROTS, so I hope Lucas realizes that too.

Anyone who watches the films chronologically is really voiding any narrative pleasures that the OT works into all the high adventure.

...and anyone watching IV - III is a glutton for punishment, as you want the series to end with the good guys losing, the hero a murderer, and just about every likeable character dead or limping off into isolation. Not exactly the way I want to show it to my kids.

And both Jedi Rocks and Lapti Nek suck. It's not a matter of which is better, they're both terrible.

I think it is. Much better. "Lapti Nek" is shorter on-screen and more alien-sounding than the excrutiatingly long and overly-Bluesy "Jedi Rocks."

No doubt. They're both unnecessary. To me, all of that stagework undermines Jabba's reputation as a notorious gangster. It makes him seem less interested in running the criminal underworld and more interested in showtunes. Then again, it was also a huge mistake to put Jabba in STAR WARS, along with Boba Fett, for that matter. Why a ruthless crime lord would lose face by physically going down to Mos Eisley to shakedown Han for money (and then allow Han to literally walk all over him in front of his men!!!) is a critical flaw. Beyond that, the new scene also ruins the once-beautiful reveal of the Millenium Falcon and makes Boba Fett ("the most notorious bounty hunter in the galaxy") look like Jabba's on-call bitch.

Huh? Where in the films does it say Boba Fett is "the most notorious bounty hunter in the galaxy"?

A very good point. This leads me to a somewhat dorky theory I've mentioned before.

I think, sometime in the future - maybe even in the next few years - , some intrepid Star Wars fanatic or maybe even Lucas (in another attempt to repackage, repackage, repackage) will figure out a way to reconcile the spoiled mysteries and the down-ending of the PT, and concoct a Star Wars: the Complete Saga cut, with all six movies cut together in such a way that 4 - 6 are the framework, and 1 - 3 are flashbacks. Sort of like the opposite of what was done with the Godfather Complete Saga, which re-tooled things into a chronological, but less dramatically satisfying version of the first two movies.

This way, the backstory could be revealed as Luke and the rest find out about it. For instance, have selected sequences from the old movies that depict Anakin as a brave fighter and friend of Obi-Wan up until around the point where Luke finds out that Vader is his father - maybe throw in some hints as that reveal approaches (the pro-fascism conversation with Padme in AOTC, for instance). Then start filling in the gaps with Anakin slipping to the dark side. Give the reveal that Luke has a twin right before Yoda tells him about it.

If done in this way, it would actually make a pretty good case for the different visual styles used - it would be pretty easy to ID a flashback sequence. Would it be a perfect beast? No probably not. Using flashbacks to such a degree might prove too distracting (although Lost is almost pulling it off, and these flashbacks would be more pertinent to the framework as a whole).

But it would solve the problem of having all of the dramatic intensity of the OT drained by watching the PT first, and it would solve the problem of watching them OT first, PT second, and having to deal with that inevitable downer of an ending.

To get even more geeky, I've always been a fan of watching the films I, IV, II, V, III, VI. (Some, who take a similar approach, put all three prequels after Empire and then cut to Jedi, but I don't like abandoning the OT's characters for so long before the big battle). Anyway, through this, you can glimpse the Jedi finding Anakin, mirrored with Luke. You lose Obi-Wan's death as a big stunning moment, but I can live with it. You see Anakin start going a bit dark in Clones, and all of a sudden you're hit with "I am your father!" in Empire. Revenge of the Sith explains this plot point and Anakin's betrayal of the Jedi, and then you wrap everything up into ROTJ.

Very geeky, I know, but I think it's a great way to preserve the series' twists while maintaining some form of chronology.

I've said this before: Episodes IV-V, a Godfather II flashback comprising of episodes I-III and finally Episode VI.

This way, you have the "Luke I'm your father twist", then you watch the story of Anakin's fall and end with his redemption and the victory of the forces of good.

It really makes a lot of sense viewing it that way. You even have all of Yoda's and the emperor's movies together.

Except that, again, you're ditching the OT characters for upwards of seven hours, and then suddenly coming back to them for the 'final battle.' Assuming you're showing it this way to somebody who's never seen the films before, you're going to lose dramatic tension because they've been away from those characters for too long.

I don't know, I like the idea that we leave the OT characters defeated and concentrate on Vader -who was just revealed to be Luke's father- and Yoda. And then return back to them from an even bleaker point in Star Wars history -the fall of the Jedi and Vader- and see both making a triumphant return. And as I've said, we have all the cool Emperor bits together.

Exactly. That's why I think a new edit is sort of an appealing thought, maybe even trimming the PT films to remove the extraneous stuff to Anakin's journey. The biggest casualty of that would probably be the political manoeuverings in the prequels, which would mean less Palpatine, less of the trading dispute of the first movie, perhaps less Jar-Jar. But the films would regain the focus on the Skywalker family and the Jedi and concentrate more on the stuff that we WANTED to know after seeing the OT.

Alas, if Lucas ever did do this, his more-is-more aesthetic would probably mean adding two additional hours worth of CGI footage instead of pruning the weaker stuff already there.

Haven't sene Ep.III yet, surprisingly. You could make a short film, or blog entry, about Vader finding out that the people who bought the droids were Skywalkers.

Interesting points here , guys.

I don't have much to say since I haven't seen Ep. 3 yet. But I feel safe in saying that the prequels don't really damage the enjoyment of the OT for me. I'll still prefer to watch the series in the order they came out. Even though I will attempt a chronological viewing of the entire series in the future. The OT are still fun to watch after all these years. They aren't flawless masterpieces but they still carry the sense of epic adventure and fantasy that they did for me when I was a kid.

Also: I personally preferred the back story of Threepio to be the story of how he had several adventures with R2 for several years before the Galactic Civil War instead of being created by young Anakin in Menace.

In all of EMPIRE's pre-release promotion, starting with the STAR WARS HOLIDAY SPECIAL (it's actually a line of dialogue spoken by James Earl Jones as Vader), continuing through with the toys and other merchandise. I know it's not strictly canon but it is how the Cult of Boba began.

I agree. The order of 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 6 is probably going to be the most interesting and fulfilling way to watch the Saga. Aside from that, I'll stick with either theatrical release order or narrative order. Considering I lived without the main characters of the OT for three intolerable years between the cliffhanger of EMPIRE and the resolution of JEDI, I'm sure I won't die if I'm away from them for seven hours.

This discussion is making me glad of my 1999 decision to avoid seeing the prequels altogether...I won't relent!

Whether he does or does not have reason hiding Luke with his father's stepbrother, on his father's home planet, the planet where his father met Obi Wan, started his path to becoming a Jedi, met his future wife, saw his mother die and giving him the name Skywalker is totally illogical.

Hell its practically goading misfortune to pay a call.