ROTS: OT loose ends and inconsistencies: SPOILERS - Page 2

It would have been even more damn impressive to actually see WHY no other human could pilot a pod racer. I didn't SEE him do anything that no other human could do. I was merely TOLD that. And that's a major reason why the Prequels haven't been as engaging as the Originals. There's been a lot of telling and not showing.

Han Solo was never promoted as the best star pilot in the galaxy (although I'm sure he wouldn't disagree) but we actually got to see him pilot the Millenium Falcon into some truly dizzying maneuvers, as well as using his wits to out-think his opponents with his daredevil skills. I got no such impression from Anakin's demonstrated piloting skills in any of the Prequels. Lucas obviously found it easier for other Prequel characters to act impressed with Anakin's skills than to actually impress us, the audience, with his exploits on-screen. It's the "You've given hope to those who have none" school of lazy scriptwriting.

That's pretty much it about the prequels.

"Once more the Sith will rule the galaxy."

I wasn't aware the Sith ever ruled the galaxy.

Is it really stifling your enjoyment because of that?

I think if the sith got as much attention as the jedi, then it would have been more enjoyable. Although I like mystery as much as the next person, but seeing as this whole PT is based around them getting revenge and coming to power, it would have been good if we'd known who the fuck they are, what the hell they want, and just what the blazes happened for them to want revenge in the first place!

Yes, blazes!

That's the whole point though, it's a mystery. All we're told is that the Sith have been extinct for a while, and when we're told that, and Qui-Gon refers to Maul as a Sith, that immediately nails them as "the bad guys." Not to mention the little conversation on Coruscant where Maul does the whole revenge thing. It's not hard to piece together what happened any more that it is to wonder what happened with the Empire and the Rebellion and the fall of the Old Republic. They're the bad guys. They dress in black, and generally look and act mean. It's obvious they want to kill the Jedi and take over the galaxy. You don't really need background material to figure that out.

Of course, that makes sense, but it doesnt make the title of this film any better for me, as the focus clearly is on 'Sith' which we know very little about. 'Rise of the Empire' would make more sense, seeing as Lucas has been attempting to dabble in politics for the past two films. But anyway, not that important, just a little irritance.

On a positive note, I did like seeing a hologaphic schematic of the Death Star in AotC, looked better than the actual construction of the thing in RotS.

The entire last 5 minutes of the film screamed digital to me. Especially the Vader, "Nooo!" scene. Just didn't look right to me.

thanks for helping me out with that one barbelithbomb i haven't seen the OT in a long time, since i refuse to own the super Lucasized versions, and i had forgot there names.

either way i think the name Skywalker is like the name Smith in the galaxy, must be millions of em.

So it takes 20 years to built the first Death Star, but they whip up the next one in 3?

Also, not really a plot hole, but were all the scenes with Mon Mothma cut? Hasbro has an action figure of her and starwars.com has a picture of her, but I didn't see her in the movie. Did I miss her, or is she hidden somewhere?

All of the Mon Mothma/forming the Rebellion scenes were cut, as they dragged the film down to all hell.

Is that the Bai Ling character, the chic who posed in Playboy, where was her character?

I had a go once, I was shit, no I mean shit..

The title of the movie doesn't bother me. I saw it as the sith getting revenge for having to sneak around two at a time for however many years because the jedi wiped them out.

As far as the kids go, would training them make them stronger in the force and therefore more detectable by Palpatine/Vader? I know some debate saying that Yoda camped out on Dagobah because that place had a stong dark side vibe (coming from the cave) which helped cancel out the light side aura he's kicking off, at least in a general sense. The only problem with that argument is how did Obi-wan sneak through on Tattooine?

Tat is also a very dark side-ish place, not to mention he's way out there in the desert an all.

If the Sith are important enough to have the word in the title of the third film; why are they NEVER mentioned in the Original Trilogy?

Based on the importance Yoda placed on there being ANOTHER Skywalker, I somehow don't buy that there are that many floating around, especially considering that The Force supposedly runs strong in that family, and that too is considered special by all involved.

I meant that the other Skywalkers aren't related to Vader, it's like going to a Smith or Jones barbaque, you can just say your a cousin and your in.

Let's see you do that when you're 8. They even mention that no human has been good enough to be a podracer before. And what about the destruction of the droid control ship? Again, pretty god damn good for an 8 year old.

What're you, five? It seems like you're more pissed off at the fact that the movies didn't match what you anticipated more than anything else. When you have such high and specific expectations, nothing will ever be good enough unless it's EXACTLY what you wanted, and you should've known it wouldn't be.

Yeah. Opinions can't ever be subjective can they?

This guy just seems really immature. Like a little kid who didn't get his way. It's fine he didn't like the movies, but the way he debates it is beyond childish, what with ignoring facts we've brought up and presenting his opinion as fact and the fact that he keeps calling on those who disagree with him for getting so upset when he's just as passionate as anyone.

As far as we know, there aren't any other Skywalkers. End of story.

OH.

Well than he must have been going by Luke Lars, up in that piece :P

How many times did you see the rough cut?

Why is Obi-Wan's lightsaber hanging on a D-ring in ANH instead of the fancy clip we see in ROTS. It's the same saber, the same belt.

the Twins

The reason for the inconsistancies with the twins (remembering Mother, another Skywalker, etc) is because they were never supposed to be twins in the first place. There's a great interview with Gary Kurtz on Film Threat that clears that up. Here's an excerpt about Jedi:
"...so the story was quite a bit more poignant and the ending was the coronation of Leia as the queen of what was left of her people, to take over the royal symbol. That meant she was then isolated from all of the rest and Luke went off then by himself. It was basically a kind of bittersweet ending. She's not his sister that dropped in to wrap up everything neatly. His sister was someone else way over on the other side of the galaxy and she wasn't going to show up until the next episode..."

Also proof that they had intended to make 7-9, incidentally. Aahhhh, Lucas the historical revisionist strikes again! (Whole article is here: http://www.filmthreat.com/Interviews.asp?Id=8)
But I don't mean to be negative. I could nit-pick the ways that the 2 trilogies don't match up (and I have) but overall I really enjoy them. There is some terrific stuff in all 3 movies that I've wanted to see since I was a kid, and I just ignore the crap parts (jar-jar, dax, areana battle, droid factory, the fact that Grievious sounds just like Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, etc).
In fact, there was one thing I really liked that I haven't seen anyone else mention. Anakin's decent is largely driven by these visions he has...he embraces the dark side to save his wife from dying in childbirth. But, had he listened to Yoda, he wouldn't have joined the darkside and then Padme would (probably) have been fine (oh, the irony!). Anyway, as a kid I always thought it was cruel of Yoda to tell Luke not to go and save his friends on Bespin...but now it makes more sense. Yoda is thinking, "shit, see what happened when Anakin didn't listen? He created the pain in the vision! Not again!"

Anyway, I have fun with the prequels looking for stuff like that to latch onto...

let me try to be an apologist for a bit

Not really, he's referred to several times as an R2 unit, meaning that there are several of them, there's no reason why Obi would recognize this one as being Anakin's.

Considering how Anakin turned out I can't see Yoda really wanting the twins to be brought up with jedi powers, in fact he didn't want to train Luke at all unti Obi-Wan convinced him otherwise.

He WAS 900 years old afterall, I didn't think him dying at that age is really surprising. It was a little convenient I grant you.

Agreed. One of the reasons why I really like Nick's idea of Lucas simply remaking the OT so the new series is seamless and the old series is left as it's own entity. Watching Episode 3 and then 4 is difficult (newest movie right before the oldest movie)

This was already answered and I agree with the answer, the droid army was merely a ploy to allow Sidious to gain control of the senate, shutting the army down and 'winning the war' would've cemented his power and erased any connection he had with them.

Agreed. That was an annoyinh plot point that didn't do a thing and was never mentioned again.

Oddly enough, one of the biggest complaints I see about the PT is that Lucas de-mythed the Jedi. I think keeping the Sith dark and mysterious was a good thing.

Good pont, in fact if you think about what Luke actually accomplished on Bespin. He got his hand cut off and found out Vader was his father and that's it. Han was still frozen and given to Jabba, and it was Lando that rescued Leia.

I guess it's time to get on the Lucasfilm payroll. Check out the Making of Episode III book.

Which is why I don't understand why the Council doesn't want to train Anakin.

Okay, this kid is the Jedi equivalent of a nuclear bomb (or at least, he's supposed to be) and you don't want to train him? What, should you send him back to Tatooine and let him hit adolescence without training? The kid will turn into Drew Barrymore in Firestarter without a little guidance for that power!

I see Jedi training in much the same way as martial arts training. A person with a talent for martial arts, but no training, isn't particularly dangerous. Take that same person, give him just a little martial arts training, and he's actually more dangerous, even to himself. He's going to have more confidence in his abilities than is warranted by his level of training, possibly doing harm to himself and others. It takes quite a lot of martial arts training to really create someone who can use his talents fully and responsibly.

Given that so much of the Jedi philosophy comes from Samurai fiction, this probably isn't too far off the mark. It would actually be safer to give Luke and Leia no exposure whatsoever to the lessons of Force training than to risk teaching them poorly or not enough. After all, as powerful as Anakin was supposed to be, it's not as if anybody sensed his presence on Tatooine before they arrived. Why would Luke or Leia be any different?

DOH! I messed up this reply earlier so I shall repost it and hopefully it will look better.

Originally Posted by BaronVH

1. C3PO's memory was erased. This does clear up the fact that he does not recognise going home. I assume R2 is just keeping his damn mouth shut and why he is so motivated to find Obi-Wan; however, Obi-Wan must be a dipshit for not recognizing Anakin's droid.

--All Obi-Wan said is he never recalled owning any droids, he never said he didnt know who they were.

2. Obi-Wan takes Anakin's light saber to give to Luke. Guess the lying bastard makes up the whole "your father wanted you to have it" speech.

--Whats he supposed to say, I took this from your fathers torched almost dead hands?

3. I suppose they decide to drop Luke off at Vader's step brother's house to hide him in plain sight, or they just assume that the emperor thinks the kids won't amount to shit anyway.

--Probably not the greatest idea, but if Darth thinks his kid (not kids, cause he only knew there was 1) is dead, why would he go looking there? And id think he wouldnt bother with Owen and Beru cause there family, even if he was stone cold evil.

4. The whole "he helped hunt down and destroy the Jedi" was for real. Was kinda surprised at that.

--I was shocked at the killing of the children scene, though they should have gone for the hard R rating and shown it

5. Anakin was the best star pilot in the galaxy.

--HA! Wedge is, he lived through 2 Death Star runs and killed 1. Top that Darth, you got your ass kicked there twice.

6. I guess only Jedi to disappear at death are Jedi Masters. Not really explained except for the brief reference to Yoda telling Obi-Wan that he can teach him the fine Jedi art of the seance. At least it was referrred to.

--Only Jedi I saw who disappeared when they died were Obi-Wan and Yoda. Countless other masters who died left nice corpses: Qui-Gon, Windu, Pointyheaded guy, Kit Fasto, Vader and many more.

7. Cool reference on how the Sith knocked up Anakin's mom. Sith loving slut.

--Thats not a given as to what happened, all it was was a story. Though if it was what happened, Palpatine had to be one patient guy to wait around for all that to happen. I dont see it as happening becuase theres too many factors that could go wrong and leave him with just wasted time.

10. Sith make lousy building contractors. 20 years to build a Death Star. Damn, Tarkin needs to get off his ass and make them work on the rainy days.

--Whats crazy is it took 20 years to make 1 Death Star and 5 or 6 to make a 2nd. Though Im sure they used the good old government adage, why build one when you can build 2 for twice the cost/

11. Leia has a REAL good memory. Mom was beautiful and sad. She got the Jedi Memory Trick. Maybe she got the photos from the bubble gum machines.

--Probably just Mrs. Organa she remembered, though she could have latent memories from the womb.

Anyway, I liked the movie alot, believe it or not, and I actually like the prequels. I do wonder what other plot line issues I missed.

also, someone mentioned why did Vader get the breating machine. When he got torched more than likely his lungs were seared. A common thing fo people engulfed in fire as he was.

I thought it was very obvious why he was the only human that could be a pod racer: he was so in tune with midichlorians/The Force. His "reflexes" were faster than any other human because he saw things coming ahead of time, able to manuever in the extremely fast and dangerous environment. Other Jedi could probably do it, but I don't think they are considered humans in the Star Wars universe--even folks like Obi Wan and Qui Gon.

Oh, and why Luke is with Owen and Beru....

I don't see Anakin ever going back to Tatooine. It is on the Outer Rim, so it is quite a distance. Also, it harbors bad memories for him (being a slave, his mother's death--and her body). So I wouldn't expect him to ever go back.

I am looking forward to all the plot holes and inconsistences with BOTH trilogies we are going to get with the TV series, for which the bit about sending out a warning signal to all Jedi to stay away from Coruscant was an painfully obvious setup....

If Sypho-Dias was such an annoying plot point because it didn't get fully explained, you guys must have really hated the original Star Wars. They don't shut up about shit in A New Hope that the audience didn't think they'd ever get to watch.

He says Sypho-Dias ordered the clones, then was killed. What's the big deal?

he's probably a red herring. Just a name the Emperor threw out there to the cloners. It had to be the emperor who got the ball rolling becuase how else would they blindly follow the plan to kill the jedi unless it was bred into them.

The funny thing is, Wedge and Lando flying into the Death Star in ROTJ is WAY more impressive than the podrace, in which Anakin basically sits in the cockpit gritting his teeth. Lando and Wedge weren't Jedi now, were they?

And what happened with Anakins dream in TPM about freeing the slaves? If his other visions came true, why not that one?

And (I've already asked this in another thread) why does Chewie make fun of Ben in ANH if he fought alongside Jedi in ROTS?

And how come Vader says "When I left you I was but the learner" in ANH when it was Obi-wan who left him? And Vader says "Now I am the master" before engaging Ben in the lamest, slowest fight ever?

And (last one), why does Obi-wan just leave Anakin burning in ROTS? Shouldn't he have finished him off? Considering they were best friends and brothers-in-arms, shouldn't Kenobi have done the proper thing and ended his agony? Thats what he was sent to do afterall.

He doesn't. As Ben goes off to shut down the tractor beam alone, Chewie's comment is "That old man's crazy." (as shown in the DVD, that is Peter Mayhew's line), to which Han adds, "You said it, Chewie." The 'old fothel [sic]' line is pure Solo scepticism.

Chewie's not taking the piss, he just thinks Ben has bitten off more than he can chew.

Chewie fought alongside Yoda, a 900 year old Jedi Master. He should know what they're capable of. He was noble and respectful towards Yoda in ROTS, why not Ben in ANH?

For the sake of the argument...

As far as I recall, there is no evidence that Chewie is ever actually disrespectful to Ben. As to why he might think that Ben's mission is 'crazy', well, Ben isn't Yoda. Chewie may think that his comparatively youthful age has still taken its toll on Kenobi's skills and judging by his display against Vader, he's right.

HERE'S A REALLY GOOD ONE:

Got this from my brother, but the more I think on it, the more I think he is right. Ready?

Quigon Jin was a sith. He was Plageus' apprentice.

In the movie Sidious tells Anakin that Plageuis found a way to be immortal. He then states that Plageus was killed by his apprentice after he taught him everything he knew. We are lead to believe that Sidius does not have this power nor is he the apprentice, because he tells Anakin right after the turn, "Together we can try and learn this secret."

The former apprentice is most likely Quigon and not Sidious. Quigon is referred to as being kind of a Maverick Jedi. He probably knew that the absolute selflessness of the Jedi was wrong. Tyrannus/Dooku refers to Quigon as his former Jedi Padawan. Quigon was the one who insisted to the council that Anakin be made a Jedi even though he didn't meet the requirments. His dying words to Anakin are to train the boy. Maybe Quigon was the one who made Anakin in order to fulfill the prophecy.

It is said that there are always two, a master and an apprentice. But it doesn't logically proceed that there are only 2 (i.e., there could be more).

Ok - what's wrong with this theory?

If the 'force is strong in my family' remark Luke made is true, why didn't Darth Vader pick up on the fact that Leia is full of the force in ANH? He was around her the whole time. Tortureed her and touched her (on the shoulder). If we believe that only a select few are born to be jedi's, due to the mitachlorians or something, then having them should give off some sort of signal/scent/whatever.

Also, I guess they took R2's boosters away before ANH....

Of course, it's also possible that Sidious is just bullshitting.

Of course, that is always possible. But if there is a better explanation, I find it entertaining to flesh it out. So far, I think the conclusion makes sense given what I recall to have been heard and scene on screen.

I've always gotten the impression that even though people are born with the innate ability to touch the force (midichlorians if you must) it doesn't really become active unless they're taught how to use it, they'd remain latent as it were, and therefore undetectable. I think anakin using the force for pod-racing is one of the only accounts of the force being used without the users knowledge, in an instinctive manner.

Well, Qui-Gon doesn't show up at the spectral reunion at the end of ROTJ ...

Good point, but we know at the end of ROTS that he can commune with the living. So whether or not he was a Sith doesn't seem to have an impact on that issue/inconsistency.

The year is 1996. Lucasfilm is set to make an announcemnet concerning Episodes I- III. The day of the announcement arrives. Star Wars fans everywhere are about to explode as surely Lucas himself is finally set to announce the beginning of production on the prequel trilogy. Only instead of the start of production Lucas announces that he has decided he will never film the prequel trilogy. He would rather concentrate on his family and more esoteric film projects. Star wars fans around the world are crushed and desperately try to explain why Lucas would abandon what he promised years before. Lucas defends his decision and says he never really intended to make a prequel trilogy anyway. It was just something the media and fans concocted. The collective fanbase rolls their eyes while also wiping away tears.

But wait there's a new hope. Lucas announces that although he has no interest in writing and directing the new films he will allow a respected author to craft three novels that would cover the first three episodes. Lucas says whoever is chosen to write the books will have complete creative control as he really just wants to wash his hand of this whole Star Wars thing. This is not enough for fans. They are frightened of someone else fucking with their baby. Complete creative control? Lucas is set in his ways though. Surely George knows what is best and the fans decide to have faith that Lucas will choose an author that treats these sacred stories with the reverance and care they deserve.

Besides, this is all they will get and at least there will be an officially approved trilogy of books that can be considered canon. Fans will get the story of Anakin and Obi-Wan's friendship, the fall of Anakin and the birth of the Empire. They wil finally know how Obi-wan first met Anakin and why he was considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy. Finally, they willl know how that duel atop a volcano played out and how Anakin became the villainous Darth Vader.


One year later, the first book is released to much hype and fanfare. Star wars Episode 1: The Phantom Menace. Fans tear into the novel. Every word is critically analized. By god this is it... Star Wars... The prequels...wait, what's this...midichlorians? What the fuck is this bullshit? Gui-Gon? Why is he the central character. Damnit, Obi-Wan found Anakin, he was the one who wanted to train him against the wishes of Yoda. Anakin built C-3PO? But that's just stupid.

One year later...

Star Wars Epsiode II is deposited onto bookshelves everywhere. Fans hope the critical lambasting that Episode 1 took has had an affect on the author. Besides this is were the real meat of the story is. I mean, shit, the Clone wars, man, The freaking Clone Wars.


"I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating and it gets everywhere. Not like here. Here everything is soft and smooth. "

Eh, what's this then?What a horribly written love story. What kind of author comes up with these terrible lines.

Wait ,what the hell, not only did Anakin build 3-PO but 3-PO actually worked on Owen's moisture farm for what 8 or 10 years? Huh? But that's just stupid!!!

Owen and Beru get one line? One line?

Jango,ittle Boba? what a way to pander to the fans.


One year later...


So, here it is. The final book in the Prequel trilogy and the one all fans have actually been waiting for. It's obvious the author has really only wanted to write this book. It's the one with all the drama, those other two books were more filler than anything. Oh well, just picked it up on sale at Borders. Let's crack it open and give it a read...

Did the author even watch the OT? Chewie fought alongside yoda in the Clone War? How contrived. Does everyone have to be connected in this tiny little galaxy? Jesus, Anakin turns because of love but he's killing children five minutes later? WTF? Surely, he can put two and two together and realize what a cockmunch Sidous has been throughout the last two films? Why kill Dooku in the first 25 pages only to introduce a silly character like Grievous? Is there a toyline based on the books in the works? What's with the name Ben? Jesus Christ, almost every word out of old Ben's mouth was horseshit. Sith, Midichlorians, Darth Plagueis? BUbubububbutttt? Oh yeah , been talking to qui-Gon, he's immortal now. What? Did the author just pull that out of his ass or what?

Oh well, it was better than the last two books and all those illustrations sure were cool to look at.



The point of course being that if anyone other than Lucas had introduced shit like midi's, the contrived appearances of 3-PO throughout the trilogy, the awful humor, the love story in "Clones" and all of the other instances of bad storytelling then the fans would have roasted him. What if Lucas had come up with the force blocking ysalimri in Episode II? Would it have been any less stupid than it is in the EU? Of course it wouldn't but there would be legions of fans defending them anyway.

Ah, that's what I get for walking out.

Quite a few, since that was all over the internet by Thursday Morning...
I understand also, that if look really close during the Space Battle you can see some X wings and Tie fighters in the background. Let's face it, Lucas loves these kinds of visual in jokes.