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The Death Penalty

post #1 of 131
6/18/05 at 3:42pm
Thread Starter 
Usually we have a bit of a liberal echo chamber in this forum. As a liberal, it doesn't hurt my ears but unless we have a Dale or a Cosmo or some conservative who actually wants to say something, it appears that the discussion remains pretty simple.

But it appears that 2/3 of all Americans still support the death penalty and I was curious if anyone on these boards did and why.

Personally, I do not support it. It's not a deterent and the state shouldn't support vengeance. That's my argument in a nutshell.
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post #2 of 131
6/18/05 at 4:27pm
Well, I do support it. You made some valid points however. I do agree that it's not a deterrant, however, the only other option is life in prison, which costs money. My money...your money. And there are some people out there who flat out deserve to die. If you spend your life torturing and murdering children, I for one don't understand why our tax dollars should go to keeping you fed and sheltered every day. But that's just me.
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post #3 of 131
6/18/05 at 5:24pm
Thread Starter 
You're right, it does cost money. But so does incarcerating drug users, but folks don't seem to have a problem with that either. Furthermore, wouldn't a worse penalty for such crimes to be contained to a restricted life for the rest of your life?
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post #4 of 131
6/18/05 at 5:47pm
Capital punishment costs more money than life imprisonment.
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post #5 of 131
6/18/05 at 8:13pm
My father, who supports it, says it's an age thing: The older you get, the better you understand the true nature of evil.

Now, I don't know about that, but I have read "Bloodletters and Badmen" cover to cover, and my take on it remains the same: An "enlightened" civilization, as we like to say we are, shouldn't kill people as punishment. Simple as that.
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post #6 of 131
6/18/05 at 8:43pm
Are there people who deserve to die for the crimes they have committed? Absolutely. But the death penalty, like pretty much all criminal punishment, is biased in terms of race and class - and, to quote Andrew Vacchs, there's always the possibility of making a fatal mistake.

Throw 'em in a cell the size of a walk-in closet for the rest of their natural lives.
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post #7 of 131
6/18/05 at 9:01pm
I think life imprisonment is actually worse than the death penalty, I know I'd rather die than be locked in a little cage and ass-raped every so often. Maybe I'd get used to the ass rape... However I think we should have a voluntary euthanasia program in prisons available to all life sentence servers after a certain time period. It would be a simple form they fill out after consulting lawyer & family etc. No "dead man walking" death ceremony crap either. Just on some random day sleeping powder in the food, then an injection and they never wake up again. I think there would be many takers and it would be cheaper than both life imprisonment or execution.
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post #8 of 131
6/18/05 at 9:36pm
I seem to recall someone doing a study and finding that the death penalty actually costs taxpayers more on average than life imprisonment. How? Appeals. A death penalty decision is an automatic appeal, and is very often taken all the way up the ladder. This costs massive amounts of money in court time. From the initial penalty decision, it nearly always takes several years before the act is actually accomplished.

To answer the question, I don't support the death penalty as it's currently handled. It is unfairly and unequally applied based on factors like race, which is utterly wrong. And in my opinion, the insanity plea is utterly backwards. If a man who raped and murdered 25 women is shown to have committed these crimes because he's so far gone that he has no conception that what he's done is wrong, then that seems like every reason you'd need to put him down. The purpose of the death penalty should be to remove those who cannot be rehabilitated from the equation.
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post #9 of 131
6/19/05 at 1:34am
If the state fucks up and takes too much out of my check, I can probably get it back.

If the state fucks up and fingers me for a crime I didn't commit, and I get the chamber, there's no fixing that.

I sure as shit don't trust the infallibility of any justice system, and I don't implicity trust the judgement of my fellow man.

The "what if your parent/lover/sibling got murdered" argument is equivalent to invoking Hitler in a debate.

It's really goddamn embassing to be part of a culture that's approving of premeditated vengeance.
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post #10 of 131
6/19/05 at 1:46am
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post #11 of 131
6/19/05 at 1:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Should we allow people to live because the system is flawed? No. Because if I am wrongly convicted of a crime I did not comit a higher court will know the truth and I will be judged fairly there.
I would have to say that your confidence in the higher courts is sadly and terrifyingly misplaced if you think that's a guarantee.
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post #12 of 131
6/19/05 at 2:56am
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post #13 of 131
6/19/05 at 3:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Do you feel Timothy McVeigh should have lived after slaughtering all those innocent American lives in Oklahoma?
Yes. I think he got off rather lightly, really. I think your cushy prison idea seems at odds with, I dunno, oodles and oodles and oodles of testimony from prisoners/ex-prisoners. Unless of course, you've been in prison before. Especially taking into consideration how many inmates commit suicide every year. I'm not sure the numbers would be what they are if it was the country club you seem to think it is.

I like to think maybe rehabilitation works. And if it doesn't, maybe we can learn something through study that might prevent things in the future.
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post #14 of 131
6/19/05 at 4:33am

Death penalty polemic

Wassup my sisters.

I don't have a problem with the death penalty per se, or with people who are against it.

But I don't really understand how people who argue that it's inhumane can then glibly proffer the "civilized" alternative of life in prison. Seems like self-deception.

I never really thought of prison or the death penalty as deterrents though. For some people there's not really a deterrent. In my view, prison is more like the possible outcome of violation the social contract: if you hurt people, we'll take you out of the society so you can't hurt those people anymore. I don't know how many people really leave prison rehabilitated. Maybe I'm excessively cynical, but I can't see it happening all that much.
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post #15 of 131
6/19/05 at 4:39am
I am a criminal justice major and have had the chance to visit and spend time at a prison in my area. It's not country club like in any way. After watching riot footage, prisoner brawls, and seeing a guy with most of his facial features burnt away by acid, I knew it wasn't the luxury life some make it out to be. If you get the chance to go to tour a prison, do it. Hell if you can go to the county jail, do that. I went to the county jail here in Bell County, TX and one of the first things I saw was a guy wacking off in his cell as my classmates and I passed.

F.T.W. Kid
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post #16 of 131
6/19/05 at 5:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Well. I am for the death penalty. I know that if someone I loved was murdered and taken from me and there was evidence that proved beyond a reasonable doubt that they did it deliberatly, I would want that person to die.
If I walked into my house found my girlfriend harmed, let alone dead, and the perpetrator was still present- the guy'd be stain. But that's a world away from state-sanctioned murder.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Do you feel Timothy McVeigh should have lived after slaughtering all those innocent American lives in Oklahoma?
Timothy McVeigh dying does NOTHING. Nothing is rectified. No scale is balanced. Nothing brought upon him can equal the value of that which he destroyed. Also, bringing that fucker up is akin to invoking Hitler, and what I said applies to him too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
If you have doubts that people live a comfy life in prision you should really take a look into it and not just what you see on TV. They have the right to sue anyone for free in prison and we pay for it. They can sue the governent becuase they have creamy peanut butter when they like chunky. They have cable television. They are allowed sunlight and gym equipment enabling them to stay fit and live longer. If you think a murderer is in trouble of being ass raped then you have some serious misconceptions. The murderers are the ones that have higher privledges with inmates since they're more feared.

So far as costing more money? The data proving that it cost more money to execute someone is based on current numbers not cost of living increase and the need to increase the number of prisons due to overpopulation. When's the last time you went out to price creamy peanut butter? now calculate that times our current prision population and figure thats just 1 day's meal a month.. and peanut butters the cheapest thing they server that I've read about. PB&J. They don't server ramen.
As a non-expert speaking as an expert, all of my accumulated justice systems knowledge really says otherwise. The public misconcption of prison as a walk in the park is continually frustrating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Are innocent people wrongly convicted? yes. Is there a chance an innocent person has been and could be given a death sentance? yes.. is it fair? no. Do we need to fix the system? yes. Should we allow people to live because the system is flawed? No. Because if I am wrongly convicted of a crime I did not comit a higher court will know the truth and I will be judged fairly there.
Translation: "Dammit, you can't break an omelet without breaking some eggs. And if those eggs happen to be the same innocent people we're trying to protect, well them's the breaks."

I won't conditionalize the value of a human life. My actions as a non-convict don't make me any more worthy of life than someone who killed a clerk in a botched convienience store robbery.

Punishment as deterrant is problematic. Punishment as the reseting of some intangible scale is too way the fuck to open to interpretation to consistantly apply.

Punishment as removal of individuals of a clear danger to society at large is the only acceptable way for me to go. If you won't live according to this community's values (and I'm talking the tangible here, not foolish bullshit like obsenity standards), you will be removed from the community. End of story.
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post #17 of 131
6/19/05 at 5:25am
It's difficult to believe that there are still people in this country who believe, as myPandaNY does, that prison is a good life, and that prisoners have it better than they did on the outside. What decade is this? Where do you get this information?

And more importantly, if life in prison is so fucking wonderful, why don't you go knock over a convenience store and then wait for the police to arrive? Then you'll have all the time in the world to post these messages between the massage therapy appointments and tanning sessions that we know all prisons now provide.

Jesus, dude.
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post #18 of 131
6/19/05 at 7:18am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Well. I am for the death penalty. I know that if someone I loved was murdered and taken from me and there was evidence that proved beyond a reasonable doubt that they did it deliberatly, I would want that person to die. I wouldn't want them living a comfortable life in a cell when the person I cared about is 6 feet under. Do you feel Timothy McVeigh should have lived after slaughtering all those innocent American lives in Oklahoma?

If you have doubts that people live a comfy life in prision you should really take a look into it and not just what you see on TV. They have the right to sue anyone for free in prison and we pay for it. They can sue the governent becuase they have creamy peanut butter when they like chunky. They have cable television. They are allowed sunlight and gym equipment enabling them to stay fit and live longer. If you think a murderer is in trouble of being ass raped then you have some serious misconceptions. The murderers are the ones that have higher privledges with inmates since they're more feared.
You obviously have no idea what you're talking about. Anyone who thinks any jail is "comfy" has to be semi-retarded. Higher privledges? Jeffery Dahmer was shanked in the shower while in prison. Obviously he didn't get the body-armor privledge. Furthermore, do you think murderers just sit around all day and have other prisoners serve them on hand and foot? I mean, wow. Just wow.

And yes, Timothy McVeigh should have lived. Two wrongs do not make a right. They make revenge which is a sick and uncivilized response.

Quote:
So far as costing more money? The data proving that it cost more money to execute someone is based on current numbers not cost of living increase and the need to increase the number of prisons due to overpopulation. When's the last time you went out to price creamy peanut butter? now calculate that times our current prision population and figure thats just 1 day's meal a month.. and peanut butters the cheapest thing they server that I've read about. PB&J. They don't server ramen.
Your humanity overwhelming. You are obviously a better person than those that you judge.

Quote:
Are innocent people wrongly convicted? yes. Is there a chance an innocent person has been and could be given a death sentance? yes.. is it fair? no. Do we need to fix the system? yes. Should we allow people to live because the system is flawed? No. Because if I am wrongly convicted of a crime I did not comit a higher court will know the truth and I will be judged fairly there.
Are you an idiot? Yes. Honestly, the assumptions you make are frightening. What makes you think an appeals court will act any differently in YOUR case than any other wrongly-convicted felon?
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post #19 of 131
6/19/05 at 7:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by almostsexy
But I don't really understand how people who argue that it's inhumane can then glibly proffer the "civilized" alternative of life in prison. Seems like self-deception.
It's not more civilized, but prison with life is better than prison plus death. We can't begin to try and start the rehibilitation process when the state isn't willing to hold itself to a higher standard it cannot reform the systems it controls.
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post #20 of 131
6/19/05 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Because if I am wrongly convicted of a crime I did not comit a higher court will know the truth and I will be judged fairly there.

Huh? Are you talking about appeals? Because you seem pretty sure of yourself.
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post #21 of 131
6/19/05 at 1:17pm
I do not support the death penalty, mostly because it doesn't work other than to act as a mechanism of petty revenge/security blanketing to the victims. Having that person die does not bring back the people you lost.

And anyone thinking prisons are fucking country clubs, read this:

The Celling of America
http://store.gxonlinestore.org/celofaminloo.html

The prison system is not doing what it can and needs to do, and it's that whole "criminals have it easy" attitude that allows state governents free license to cut back on any and all mechanisms of rehabilitation. myPandaNY, you are being horribly naive.
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post #22 of 131
6/19/05 at 1:41pm
I don't have a moral problem with the death penalty per se (especially for monsters like this), but I just don't see any way that a justice system can guarantee that an innocent won't be executed.

And if there's even a remote possibility an innocent person could be executed, the death penalty simply can't be used.
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post #23 of 131
6/19/05 at 2:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Subotai
Huh? Are you talking about appeals? Because you seem pretty sure of yourself.
Hang on, I think he's on to something. Sort of a "Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the bible tells me so" kinda thing. Like in the song 8 year-olds sing.
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post #24 of 131
6/19/05 at 2:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer
I don't have a moral problem with the death penalty per se (especially for monsters like this), but I just don't see any way that a justice system can guarantee that an innocent won't be executed.

And if there's even a remote possibility an innocent person could be executed, the death penalty simply can't be used.

There is no justice in our or only system. Innocent people will be convicted, and guilty people will go free. I for one think there is no reason for a execution to cost so much. Personally I think the death penalty should be expanded to included more crimes. Innocent people die every day, shit happen, get use to it.



"enlightened" civilization is a myth. People are innately evil. We have yet to have any civilization even try to live up the high ideals expressed by Plato, Confucius, Buddha or even the old testament, and those are all over 2,500 years old.
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post #25 of 131
6/19/05 at 3:05pm
People aren't inherintly evil. Mobs tend to lean that direction, sure, but each individual may or may not be.
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post #26 of 131
6/19/05 at 3:24pm
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post #27 of 131
6/19/05 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Yes, they are confined and they have a lot of privledges taken away but if you MURDER someone INTENTIONALLY then why the hell should they have those privledges for the rest of their natural life? They deserve death and they can go to hell where they deserve to be or whatever the equivilant to whomevers religion they so choose to believe in.
Who are you to be the executioner in this scenario? What does killing them solve, except making you feel righteous? Absolutely nothing. The threat of murder does not prevent further murders. It never has. And many people who do murder do so one time. They aren't serials or in need of being "put down" because they are a risk. Killing them just gives people an illusion of safety, nothing more. And the idea that an inmate gets better food in prison than on the outside should be an indication of bigger social ills, not that inmates are pampered babies. Seriously, if you gave people normal balanced diets/enough healthy food to survive and prosper, many people woudn't even commit crimes.

And eenin, that whole "let's have the death penalty for all kinds of crimes" is retarded. Where do you draw the line? And why should we take this attitude that "innocent people die all the time, get over it"? Is life so cheap to you?
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post #28 of 131
6/19/05 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun
Hang on, I think he's on to something. Sort of a "Jesus loves me, yes I know, for the bible tells me so" kinda thing. Like in the song 8 year-olds sing.

Wow. It took me a while to realize he's serious.
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post #29 of 131
6/19/05 at 4:17pm
So myPandaNY, your point revolves around them eating decent food? You're complaining because they eat actual meals? That sounds more like a condemnation of the laziness of the average American than of prison. Most people are too lazy to cook, therefore prisoners should eat bread and small rocks? I mean, really, you keep complaining about what prisoners are getting; what is it you think prison should be like? From your first post, apparently the fact that they eat peanut butter really pisses you off, so that's out. And clearly you think there should be no gym equipment or television. What about books? Should those be gone too? Maybe we should just bury them up to their necks and feed them intravenously.

From some of your comments earlier, it seems you're a christian, but the legal and penal systems can't operate on the principle that criminals are going to hell anyway, so why does it matter how we treat them? And for that matter, I've never understood why so many people who claim to be followers of a man who primarily preached forgiveness and compassion believe in the death penalty. You know, an awful lot of the people in prisons discover Jesus in there, so clearly they're not going to hell. Do they get the good food?
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post #30 of 131
6/19/05 at 4:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
If somone murders another human being, should they have the ability to eat roast beef? barbecqued chicken? steak?
If you have the idea that Emeril is behind the counter working the grill, think again. The food is processed, bought dirt cheap. It would not be recognizable by the man on the street, let alone something you or I would pay money for.
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post #31 of 131
6/19/05 at 4:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin
There is no justice in our or only system. Innocent people will be convicted, and guilty people will go free. I for one think there is no reason for a execution to cost so much. Personally I think the death penalty should be expanded to included more crimes. Innocent people die every day, shit happen, get use to it.



"enlightened" civilization is a myth. People are innately evil. We have yet to have any civilization even try to live up the high ideals expressed by Plato, Confucius, Buddha or even the old testament, and those are all over 2,500 years old.
You're right. Screw it. People are born evil (which is why the doctor spanks em!) and there's nothing we can do about it! Might as well push for an authoritarian regime now. This democracy shit is obviously over-rated.
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post #32 of 131
6/19/05 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel St. Buggering
So myPandaNY, your point revolves around them eating decent food? You're complaining because they eat actual meals? That sounds more like a condemnation of the laziness of the average American than of prison. Most people are too lazy to cook, therefore prisoners should eat bread and small rocks? I mean, really, you keep complaining about what prisoners are getting; what is it you think prison should be like? From your first post, apparently the fact that they eat peanut butter really pisses you off, so that's out. And clearly you think there should be no gym equipment or television. What about books? Should those be gone too? Maybe we should just bury them up to their necks and feed them intravenously.

From some of your comments earlier, it seems you're a christian, but the legal and penal systems can't operate on the principle that criminals are going to hell anyway, so why does it matter how we treat them? And for that matter, I've never understood why so many people who claim to be followers of a man who primarily preached forgiveness and compassion believe in the death penalty. You know, an awful lot of the people in prisons discover Jesus in there, so clearly they're not going to hell. Do they get the good food?
Careful. You'll override his anti-logic centers.
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post #33 of 131
6/20/05 at 1:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg
You're right. Screw it. People are born evil (which is why the doctor spanks em!) and there's nothing we can do about it! Might as well push for an authoritarian regime now. This democracy shit is obviously over-rated.


We don't live in a democracy. As far as I know there only need one democracy in history. We here in the USA have a republic, which has some 'human rights' written in to it structure of government. Most of these right over the years have been marginalized, so they are not what they once were. The only one that has not been that marginalized is the first one, but give the government time.
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post #34 of 131
6/20/05 at 1:42am
Thread Starter 
We do live in a republic. Guess we can all go home and kill ourselves now.

And yeah, abolishing slavery and giving the franchise to women and minorities, this country is about to die.

Honestly, stop projecting your dismal view of humanity as sociological fact.
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post #35 of 131
6/20/05 at 2:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt Goldberg
We do live in a republic. Guess we can all go home and kill ourselves now.

And yeah, abolishing slavery and giving the franchise to women and minorities, this country is about to die.

Honestly, stop projecting your dismal view of humanity as sociological fact.

That big of you. Take the only good things our government has done in the last 100 years, and try to make like I am against them.

I was more thinking about double taxation, the U.N. The abashment of the right to own property (as in land or your own home), the abandonment of do process, and more empowerment of law enforcement(patriot act).
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post #36 of 131
6/20/05 at 3:02am
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post #37 of 131
6/20/05 at 4:04am
If you really think vengeance = peace of mind, it shows how little the human race has really evolved.
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post #38 of 131
6/20/05 at 4:54am
Quote:
1. Gives piece of mind to the families (vengance).
The purpose of incarceration is to remove threats to society, not make people feel better.

Quote:
2. prevents the person from escaping and commiting more crimes.
Should all criminals be executed, then? Also, this presumes the criminal - should his escape attempt succeed - will commit a crime. How many murderers escape from prison and commit another crime each year?

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3. costs more money to house criminals over the course of the rest of their lives (dispite the data otherwise, since it doesn't take into account inflation\cost of living increase and the cost of building a new prision to house the extra xxxxx inmates since they will be there an extra 60 or so years giving the rise in life expectency.
Do studies that include inflation exist, and do they support your argument? Would the cost of their incarceration offset the reduced costs of their trials?

That repealing the death penalty will necessitate the building of even more prisons doesn't hold water. Had the death penalty been repealed in 1976, there would be an extra 820 prisoners in the penal system since 1976. Maybe a few more because there've been executions since 2002, when the statistic was recorded. Compare that to the total number of people incarcerated since 1976 then ask yourself how many more prisons you would have to build to house those extra 820 compared to the number you've already had to build. To give you a picture of the numbers involved, Texas alone has the capacity to house 154,702 inmates. And, despite making good use of the death penalty, it faces a housing shortage. It expects to house another 15,000 or so in the next five years. That's just Texas. Another 820 inmates across the country would be a drop in the bucket.

Number of executions since 1976

Texas figures

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Also gives them the oportunity to use more tax payer dollars (that could go towards roads or schools!) by suing over frivolous things like wanting chunky peanut butter instead of creamy (real lawsuit mentioned).
If this is important enough to make the case for capital punishment, you surely advocate the immediate execution of all prisoners so all that frivolously spent money will be saved. Is this the case? Is it that important? I'm willing to bet the money spent on frivolous lawsuits brought forward by inmates on death row is nothing compared to the money spent frivolously by governments made up of people walking free. Money that could be spent on roads and schools. How much money has been spent on, say, campaign commercials and receptions? How badly has your government been taken to the cleaners by Halliburton?

Your reasoning is very poor. I remain unconvinced.
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post #39 of 131
6/20/05 at 5:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Here's a good read.

http://www.newsbatch.com/deathpenalty.htm


My views, my wife's views and our respective families views are about the same and all of our friends pretty much agree with the death penalty but I do have friends that do not agree and I don't think anything less of them just a personal preference I guess. I do believe that it should be used for the most henus of crimes and not for someone stealing something on the street(meaning lesser crimes should not be punishable by death). We shouldn't become MORE extreme with out capitol punishment perhaps less extreme on some cases. Obviously, if you don't get the points there's no sense wasting my time getting them across. But I will reiterate the highlights.

1. Gives piece of mind to the families (vengance)
2. prevents the person from escaping and commiting more crimes
3. costs more money to house criminals over the course of the rest of their lives (dispite the data otherwise, since it doesn't take into account inflation\cost of living increase and the cost of building a new prision to house the extra xxxxx inmates since they will be there an extra 60 or so years giving the rise in life expectency.
4. Also gives them the oportunity to use more tax payer dollars (that could go towards roads or schools!) by suing over frivolous things like wanting chunky peanut butter instead of creamy (real lawsuit mentioned).

there are other points but it just isn't worth my time, like I said, I was under the impression the thread was for:
"But it appears that 2/3 of all Americans still support the death penalty and I was curious if anyone on these boards did and why."

Me, I'll stick my debates with people who are in person where my points are made without backspacing or getting distracted by a wife or 15 month old daughter while making my points because I must not be making sense since no one here has actually responded as to why someone shouldn't be put to death other then 'its not civilized'. Who and what determines civilized? a book you read by somone who died a long time ago? or better yet, a book you read by somone that stole something from someone a long time ago? Who knows, maybe in the future the death penalty will be abolished by a computer chip put in the brain to eliminate those desiers or feelings (not fiction.. they're puting chips in brains now to control feelings and emotions for depression) then you all can take up how 'inhumane' it is to cut into someones brain and change who they are.

I'm not going to even bother mentioning food again. Obviously its lost on most of you who have commented on it... yes, it's quality is substandard to that in a restaurant but I will garantee you, it is better quality then that in a school's cafeteria. Have any of you been to a prision? (I have not, but like I said, I know people who have as prison guards, workers etc...) They have observed that the food in prisons are of higher quality then that of their kids public school cafeteria. I guess if we allowed parents to sue on the tax payers dollar we could get that fixed.....(Hint, that is the big problem, suing on tax payer dollars AND paying more money for the higher quality food because it TASTES better. Money that is being taken away from other things like, school system or roads or whatever......) if it was a mater of a balanced diet, they can achive that with lesser quality tasting food.


fin
You still haven't explained why, as a follower of Christ and his (rather benelvolent) teachings, you support the state-sanctioned murder of human beings. I've asked Christians a number of times on these boards how certain 'believers' could be pro-War, pro-Death Penalty and pro-Gun. Never had an answer. Funny that. Its just that the whole 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', and (paraphrase) 'if a man hits you, don't retaliate but turn the other cheek toward him to be hit again' seems to kind of...I dunno...get in the way.

I suppose the bluntest way of putting it is this - imagine you're sitting in the viewing gallery of an execution - electric chair for argument's sake - and Jesus appears beside you. As they pull the lever and thousands of volts course through the man's body, do you think Jesus would nod with approval? Hmmmm.

PS This question is based on the assumption that you're a Christian - I put two and two together when you started talking about being judged in a 'higher court' when you die. If I'm mistaken, I throw the question to any other bloodthirsty, vengeance-obsessed Christians who may be reading.
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post #40 of 131
6/20/05 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin
We don't live in a democracy. (...) We here in the USA have a republic
democracy is a form of government; republic is a political order. the two are not mutually exclusive, and you're actually comparing apples and oranges.

Quote:
Innocent people die every day, shit happen, get use to it.
we will, as long as you volunteer to be the first "innocent" person to walk up to the chair. or are you just saying that it's only other people's lives that are cheap?
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post #41 of 131
6/20/05 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Obviously, if you don't get the points there's no sense wasting my time getting them across.

It's not that no one's getting your "points", it's more that your logic's sorta flawed and your "values" are goddamn disgusting.
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post #42 of 131
6/20/05 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Legless Dog
It's not that no one's getting your "points", it's more that your logic's sorta flawed and your "values" are goddamn disgusting.
Not much point arguing with the guy. Anyone who disputes the argument that an innocent person may be executed because he himself is satisfied to be judged by a higher court, is, well, incorrigible.
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post #43 of 131
6/20/05 at 2:09pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin
That big of you. Take the only good things our government has done in the last 100 years, and try to make like I am against them.

I was more thinking about double taxation, the U.N. The abashment of the right to own property (as in land or your own home), the abandonment of do process, and more empowerment of law enforcement(patriot act).
You misspelled the word "due".
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post #44 of 131
6/20/05 at 3:03pm
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Originally Posted by slowpulse
democracy is a form of government; republic is a political order. the two are not mutually exclusive, and you're actually comparing apples and oranges.?

I disagree both are forms of government. The two party system is a political order..
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we will, as long as you volunteer to be the first "innocent" person to walk up to the chair. or are you just saying that it's only other people's lives that are cheap?
I am willing to take me chance the same as everyone else. It not like there is any justice in the system to begin with.
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post #45 of 131
6/20/05 at 3:37pm
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Originally Posted by myPandaNY
Here's a good read.

http://www.newsbatch.com/deathpenalty.htm


My views, my wife's views and our respective families views are about the same and all of our friends pretty much agree with the death penalty but I do have friends that do not agree and I don't think anything less of them just a personal preference I guess. I do believe that it should be used for the most henus of crimes and not for someone stealing something on the street(meaning lesser crimes should not be punishable by death). We shouldn't become MORE extreme with out capitol punishment perhaps less extreme on some cases. Obviously, if you don't get the points there's no sense wasting my time getting them across.
It's not that we don't get your points, it's more like you don't really have any, and some of the points you have are based on false data.

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But I will reiterate the highlights.

1. Gives piece of mind to the families (vengance)
Not sure what belief system you subscribe to that makes it ok to grab the pound of flesh there, but whatever...

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2. prevents the person from escaping and commiting more crimes
Again, many people who kill are one-time killers. What exactly are you preventing by killing off inmates in most cases?

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3. costs more money to house criminals over the course of the rest of their lives (dispite the data otherwise, since it doesn't take into account inflation\cost of living increase and the cost of building a new prision to house the extra xxxxx inmates since they will be there an extra 60 or so years giving the rise in life expectency.
See the links a few posts above for a rebuttal against this ignorant view. Prisons are a growth industry, and with the rise of private prison facilities, there is a lot of money to be made by housing prisoners in some sectors. Cost of living also applies to the appeals process (which many capital punishment cases have several of over a long period of time), and I would venture a guess that the price of food will increase less that the price of a lawyer's wages.

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4. Also gives them the oportunity to use more tax payer dollars (that could go towards roads or schools!) by suing over frivolous things like wanting chunky peanut butter instead of creamy (real lawsuit mentioned).
That's ridiculous. Ther are how many cases like this in front of the courts from death-row inmates? Exactly one?

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there are other points but it just isn't worth my time, like I said, I was under the impression the thread was for:
"But it appears that 2/3 of all Americans still support the death penalty and I was curious if anyone on these boards did and why."

Me, I'll stick my debates with people who are in person where my points are made without backspacing or getting distracted by a wife or 15 month old daughter while making my points because I must not be making sense since no one here has actually responded as to why someone shouldn't be put to death other then 'its not civilized'. Who and what determines civilized? a book you read by somone who died a long time ago? or better yet, a book you read by somone that stole something from someone a long time ago? Who knows, maybe in the future the death penalty will be abolished by a computer chip put in the brain to eliminate those desiers or feelings (not fiction.. they're puting chips in brains now to control feelings and emotions for depression) then you all can take up how 'inhumane' it is to cut into someones brain and change who they are.
Juvenile bullshit. Again, what belief system do you subscribe to that makes murder o.k. People should not be put to death because it a) does not act as a deterrent for other criminals, b) is actually pre-meditated murder, c) costs way more to follow through on than keeping someone locked away for life. Do you need more reasons, or are these simple enough for you to understand?

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I'm not going to even bother mentioning food again. Obviously its lost on most of you who have commented on it... yes, it's quality is substandard to that in a restaurant but I will garantee you, it is better quality then that in a school's cafeteria. Have any of you been to a prision? (I have not, but like I said, I know people who have as prison guards, workers etc...) They have observed that the food in prisons are of higher quality then that of their kids public school cafeteria. I guess if we allowed parents to sue on the tax payers dollar we could get that fixed.....(Hint, that is the big problem, suing on tax payer dollars AND paying more money for the higher quality food because it TASTES better. Money that is being taken away from other things like, school system or roads or whatever......) if it was a mater of a balanced diet, they can achive that with lesser quality tasting food.

fin
I addressed this in my post above, but it looks like you missed that point. Is it not sad that for some people the only hope they have of eating decent food is to get arrested? And how much crime could you prevent if you gave money to a food program/food bank to help poor people eat healthier?

Seriously, you are being what I would consider a "typical American", in that you don't give a shit about poor people (who make up the vast majority of the prisoners/crime committers in your nation) and when they go to jail you are the first to scream "they're living in a fucking hotel, starve their asses!". If you took the money being spent on a prison and invested that money into the poor communities you would end a lot of your crime.
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post #46 of 131
6/20/05 at 4:37pm
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Originally Posted by Phil Connors
You still haven't explained why, as a follower of Christ and his (rather benelvolent) teachings, you support the state-sanctioned murder of human beings. I've asked Christians a number of times on these boards how certain 'believers' could be pro-War, pro-Death Penalty and pro-Gun. Never had an answer. Funny that. Its just that the whole 'Thou Shalt Not Kill', and (paraphrase) 'if a man hits you, don't retaliate but turn the other cheek toward him to be hit again' seems to kind of...I dunno...get in the way.
I never said I was a Christian. Because I am not.
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post #47 of 131
6/20/05 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
I was refering to the higher court after death. Not of our judicial system. THAT I know is slightly flawed
You say shit like this and you aren't Christian?
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post #48 of 131
6/20/05 at 5:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by myPandaNY
3. costs more money to house criminals over the course of the rest of their lives (dispite the data otherwise, since it doesn't take into account inflation\cost of living increase and the cost of building a new prision to house the extra xxxxx inmates since they will be there an extra 60 or so years giving the rise in life expectency.
Not that I really expect you to understand this, but inflation doesn't change this statistic, at ALL. In fact, you're only right if you apply inflationary numbers incorrectly and superficially, so it appears that the dollar cost of housing a prisoner doubles during their lifespan (ignoring the more constant actual price).
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post #49 of 131
6/21/05 at 8:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin
I disagree both are forms of government. The two party system is a political order.
this is definitely off-topic, but what the hell... i'll bite:

they are not both forms of government, otherwise you couldn't have them together. democracy, teocracy and totalitarianism are forms of government, and you can't have more than one of them at the same time.

a republic, on the other hand, only tells you that the head of state is elected (a president, for instance), as opposed to a monarchy, where the head of state inherits the position. but it doesn't say whether it's a democratic nation of not.

italy, the us, france are democratic republics, with elected presidents.
sweden, spain and belgium are democratic monarchies.
pre-war iraq was a totalitarian republic, where people "voted" for the only man on ther ballot.
saudi arabia is an autocratic monarchy.

see the difference?

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I am willing to take me chance the same as everyone else. It not like there is any justice in the system to begin with.
so, since you're saying that there is no justice in america, you don't think it would be better to put off executing people until some form of justice is "restored"?
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post #50 of 131
7/22/07 at 5:10am
*MEGA bump*

I'm against the death penalty. It's shameful that our government actually sends people to the deaths and the thought that even ONE person has been wrongly executed (and I just know the number is WAY higher than just "one") is sickening and actually makes me feel really ashamed in my heart.

Howver, I'm all for cruel and unusual punishment of criminals who carry out vicious and completely horrible crimes.

Like, for instance, a few days ago at a club over here some asshole got into an argument with his girlfriend and outright punched her right in front of all the patrons.

A guy pushed the asshole back to protect this girl he didn't even know, and the asshole and his buddies beat the living shit out of him.

Later in the night the asshole came back as the club was letting out and shot the guy dead.

This man should not get the death penalty. He should, however, be tortured in many painful ways for the rest of his adult life.

Ditto for: child murderers, morally bankrupt thugs, serial killers, etc.

Basically anyone who isn't certified to be mentally handicapped or extremely psychologically impaired.
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