The Death Penalty - Page 2

Yeah, torture is much more humane than the death penalty.

Oh, and myPandaNy, that's some old school conservocraziness we seldom get at these boards anymore.
I almost miss it.

The Panda guy pulled a Diva. How disappointing.

I know it's nowhere near humane. It's not even on the same continent as "humane".

But, well, some people just deserve to suffer for shit they do. Nothing warms my heart more than seeing an evil fuck reduced to crying in a fetal position and having their ego and pomposity chucked out the window.

I don't support it because the constitution prohibits cruel and unusual punishment and what's more cruel then death?

I also think it's worse to have life in prison then just taking the easy way out.


If I went to prison right now I'd wish they would kill me.

I guess it'd be too much to hope that he had some sort of epiphany, and deleted his posts out of sheer embarrassment at what a douche he was being.

I support the death penalty because I have a generally low opinion on humanity and believe that there's a point a person can cross where rehab is futile (that point usually being the planned murder of another person, especially if it involves rape beforehand/afterwards). And after that point is crossed, they're just stealing oxygen and taking up space.

If we can kill dogs for killing people, why not people?

I also support the death penalty for corporate thieves, corrupt politicians and treasonous government officials. In fact, I'd rather they be lined up on a cliff and shoved off than your average murderer.

Well that's a slippery slope of logic I don't think you want to go down...

It's also why we don't have adolescents drafting laws. That "low opinion of people" teenage angst perspective informs the sort of logic that people with undeveloped, oversimplified views on humanity use to justify being antisocial asses.

It's cyclical - if you have a low opinion of people, it'll show in your actions, people will hate you and treat you badly, and you'll get an even lower opinion of people. It's also the eenin view.

Not that humanity smells like a flower, either, but it is what it is. Since all we have to judge humanity on is humanity's track record to date, I think the only conclusion you can really draw is that mankind, as a whole, isn't mostly good or mostly bad, but exactly average.

You could also make the argument that if you have a low opinion of people, who cares if someone killed one of them in the first place?

I used to split from the liberal orthodoxy on the death penalty, until I started learning about The Innocence Project. The sheer number of death row inmates who have been exonerated by DNA evidence was enough to convince me that I was wrong.

The only thing scarier than people killing people is the government killing people...

I mean, seriously, they can't get big corpos to pay taxes, start irrational wars, and build bridges to no where.

you want these people to decide if you live or die? Well, good luck, my friend. For your sake, I hope yr not poor, black, or retarded*...lest you have very little chance of survival in our 'justice' system.

*only applicable if you live in Texas.

I'm personally anti death penalty because:

a) the system is too flawed vis a vis who is condemning people to die and what biases emerge therefrom (case in point: the disproportionate number of african americans condemned to die in Texas);
b) death row is vastly more expensive than life in prison, with required appeals, etc.
c) too much of a "sin" to be accompanied by such a broad margin for error, as has been proved with countless dna exculpations.

I'm not, however, against:
a) chemical castration for sex offenders, particularly in crimes against children;
b) voluntary medical research testing among lifers (as a replacement for the vile, sadistic and for the most part useless experimentation on defenseless animals); and
c) this..

I also think that if we as a society doubled or tripled resources for education and poverty (think Roosevelt's WPA), prison overcrowding wouldn't be as much of an issue.

Also: throw the white collar criminals like our friends from Enron into the general prison population.

Add innocent to that list. Especially in Dallas.

Perhaps I shouldn't have posted in a thread about the death penalty while I was in a boozed-up "fuck it all" angst-a-thon mood (bad shit involving a drunk driver, don't ask). Looking back at my post, there's some truly silly shit in there.

That Innocence Project site pisses me off, though (not the site itself, but that something like The Innocence Project is needed at all). It's appalling seeing how many fuck-ups can happen even when something as major as a life is at stake.

The part that bothers me is that not all of them are fuck-ups. There are very clear cases in which every attempt was made to railroad somebody, because of race or whatever else.

While true that the death penalty is more expensive than life, its not due to the appeals process as much as it is the expense involved when trying a Capital case. I learned this while doing a paper for school. A case carrying lethal injection (whatever here) as a punishment often bankrupts cities or counties or both. The Prosecution has a whole different set of rules than a case that simply calls for life imprisonment.

The point I am trying to make here is that the $$$ has been spent long before appeals process starts. Speaking strictly from memory, easiest enough to check if you care to:

life Imprisonment $750,000
Death Penalty $3 million

I completed the paper in 2002.
When doing research I was confused at the inmates on the Row and the ones who were not. It just didn't seem to be a level playing field. Of course if I had a loved one murdered I might scream for the person to be Drawn and Quartered. I suppose its one of those things that if you are truly against it, it has to apply to everyone no matter the nature of their crime. Otherwise I would be picking and choosing.

How is death cruel? For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten(bible quot by the way). The dead sleep how is sleep cruel?

Come, friends, let us rise up as one and garrot eenin. With kindness.

If I ever have to teach a class on question-begging, I've got my first hypothetical.

No way Schwartz. I'm completely against cruelty against animals... ...wait a minute...did he say death is not cruel ?

Alright. Stone him. Old Testament style. Garroting is for the pros or the wussies. I'll see us coming.

I never said that dieing can not be cruel. I just said that death was not cruel.

Electron microscopes can't detect the hair you just attempted to split.

But DarthSidious said that death was cruel. Since nether one of us believe in an afterlife. How is death cruel? The act of dieing can be slow painful and cruel, but dieing is not the same as dead.

Who needs the death penalty when we have the power of eenin. Just send him to every prison cell and let him preach his special brand of stupid to the cons. They will most certainly dispatch themselves within minutes just to get the hell away from him.

YOU HAVE TO DIE IN ORDER TO BE DEAD. Ta-da!

It's like a trick!

Actually, the death penalty as it stands isn't a deterrent.

Executing a mass child molester/killer on live television and then telling the camera "this is what's what for the next fucker who touches a kid" just might work.

Just one will do. We can just lock up and/or torture the rest.

If I were a parent, the thought that my child's last thoughts were of excrutiating pain and FEAR and crying and wondering why his parents weren't there and who these MONSTERS, because you just know a kid won't see a human but a boogie man, hurting him/her... that shit will keep you up for the rest of your LIFE.

You'd only want to cause that person who killed your child the worst goddamn pain a human being can. Hell, Nick Nunz said something to this same effect once in a Mailbag (IIRC) a year or so ago.

Cronenberg once said the thing that frightened him the most in the world was going to pick up his kids at school and not finding them there. Ain't that the truth.

I truly am against the death penalty. But I love seeing evil people get theirs way too much to just leave it at "toss the key away" and that's that.

...I should probably stay away from small animals, shouldn't I?

The problem with the death penalty as a deterrent...or anything as a deterrent, really... is that the people who would be committing these crimes would have to believe that they'll be caught in order for the deterrent to work. Presumably, if they believed they'd be caught, they wouldn't be doing it.

On a base level it really is natural that you should get some satisfaction from knowing that a man who you deem a monster is no longer alive. But thinking about it logically, that is the only thing that can come out of the death sentence. In my view it is just killing for personal gratification and it is only different from a serial killer's acts in that it is state sanctioned.

I'd be in favour of the death penalty if it deterred eenin from posting here.

That's the whole fucking point, isn't. Which is why, at least nominally, it is illegal in America for the state to do all that torture, chemical castration, experimentation, nonsense to people just cos dey deserve it.

This nation was supposed to be above all that uncivilized shit, which is why we have things like the 8th, 4th, and 5th amendments, along with habeas corpus written into our federal laws. Grabbing some a-hole criminal off the street and torturing them may make our lizard brain insides feel better, but it's not what a civilized nation does. Do some people deserve to be treated horribly? Yes, but if we start making exceptions, someday someone innocent (maybe even you) will be on the wrong side of the exception. Then how different are we from the evil-doers out there? Answer: we aint. In fact, we're worse because we're hypocrites and liars.

What the fuck is with the money argument, anyways? Are individuals really that upset that a small percentage of their taxes every year goes to make sure innocent people aren't killed by the state?

Of course, even if you convinced me that killing after their first conviction would eliminate the national debt in 6 weeks I'd still be against it because I have issue with killing innocent people. That's just me, though.

Be reasonable, GFC. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, after all.


Uh...not seriously.

Fixed.
Its probably pointless but it also bugs the hell out of me.

How does not believing in an afterlife make death less cruel? Missing out on life, whether you're in a coma or just sleeping for eternity unaware of the cramped confines of your pine box, is cruel.

Good question, GFC, but yr also dealing with a fella who seems to be using the Bible to justify the death penalty...not really possible, presuming you read the second half of the book.

Then again, I can't really understand what the hell he's saying with all this death vs. dying business...

I believe in the death penalty, I'm sorry. There are just some people in this world who do things that are just so fucked up to other humans that they deserve to be put to death. Take for instance the guy who threw that 5 year old girl into a swamp in the hopes that alligators would kill her (which they did) or those two guys in Conn. who murdered that family including two teenage girls during a home invasion. Yes innocent people get caught up and by all means everything should be done to get them off of death row / prison. But when it's a cut and dry case that you did some fucked up shit, then it's time for you to go.

Here's the problem: what is a cut and dried case? And, what are our goals for the criminal justice system? Hint, it's not just retribution.

The criminal justice system we live under was designed to keep innocent people out of jail. In many ways, its horrifically inefficient and slow. We can change that, and many countries have...one's called China. But, is that a system we want to live under? The Death Penalty may make us feel better, but to effectively implement the system, under our laws, is impossible. And because of that, it should be done away with.

I fully agree with you, in principle. And many years ago, I was giving the exact same speech when the subject came up. But too much has surfaced about the reliability of our convictions. Yes, some people fully deserve to be put to death. But we can never be so positive that we've got the right guy that we can afford to make that call. Our legal system is founded on the principle that it's better that a hundred guilty men should go free than one innocent man should hang. And I believe in that principle; it's all a matter of on which side you wish to err, because it's a guarantee that errors will be made. If you want to err on the side of punishing the guilty, a lot of innocent people will die. It's simply a fact.

I suppose if we limited it it cases in which there's a full confession on record, there would at least be something resembling justification there. I simply don't trust our legal system quite that much.

Are there people who deserve to die for the crimes they've committed? I would say, absolutely.

But the death penalty, put into practice, is a little more complex. Andrew Vachss made his argument against the death penalty on Oprah some 10 years ago. It was, it demonstrates a severe class/race bias; it's performed in a long, drawn-out manner which could be argued is inhumane and is actually a source of entertainment for some people; it actually draws wanted attention to some of these murderous freaks; and to cap it all off, there is always the chance of making (no pun intended), a fatal mistake. Hard to argue with that.

So fuck it. Throw them in a 6x8 cell, for the rest of their lives. Period.

A thoroughly convincing argument for the death penalty:
http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/1033/1033_01.asp

My favorite panel:



So the evil people are Muslims, Devil Worshippers, Asian Communists, Witches, my Second Grade Teacher and Paleontologists.

I can deal with that, but I reserve the right to send Kevin Bacon after them should the system fail the victim and end up letting a guilty man go free.

I trust that's fair?

Tooth Fairy -> Santa Claus -> Easter Bunny -> Murder. Sounds about right.

That tale was just full of twists. First you think it's about false deities, then juvenile violence, and then they twist it right back around to stubbornness, and finally Jesus saying the big 'fuck you' at the end of all things. That's quality drama.

I like how the message can be boiled down to 'believe in Jesus because shit, worse that can happen is you're right."

This is such a hard issue for me to come to a solid decision on. You see, I used to work for the local newspaper in Huntsville, Texas and at least three or four times a month I would have to go witness the executions carried out at the Walls Unit and report on them. I can't remember how many I went to as I lost count after the first half dozen or so (my estimated count at this point is at least a 15 or so).

When I would view them, I was always placed on the same side as the family members of the condemned. The man behind the glass, strapped to the gurney may have killed elderly people in cold blood or shot a police officer in the face during a traffic stop, but to them he was still their father, their son, their brother, their friend and there was never a shortage of tears spilled for him. It never got easier watching them press their hands against the glass as they bid their loved one a final farewell.

The humanity of the condemned was always driven home in a gut wrenching way that I will never ever forget and I would almost always walk out of there convinced the death penalty was wrong. Until, that is, I would get back to the newsroom and begin writing my story. As I would list the horrible things these men perpetrated I would be reminded that maybe, just maybe, justice hadbeen served. Some of the condemned seemed to think so and would admit as much during their final statement. A few of them were defiant to the end, but most at least seemed genuinely repentent for what they had done.

I've also interviewed the families of the victims and while a great many of them feel justice had been served, a surprising number would also admit that they think he shouldn't have been executed. It's such a hard thing for me to come to a definitive conclusion on.

As a Canadian I don't really think about this subject very often, but when I do it brings up conflicting emotions. A few years ago I would say hell no and spouted a bunch of liberal talking points, but now I'm really not sure.

If a member of my family or a close friend where murdered I would probably scream for blood and want the fucker drawn and quartered. However I just don't think the government has the right to kill it's own citizens or any other citizen of a country outside of a war-time situation.

Some people just don't deserve to live because of what they have done, but I think life in prison is such a terrible sentence that this maybe a more apt pusnishment.

In principle, I think I'm opposed to it.

However, I would challenge the idea that a government doesn't have the right...
If government is truly "of the people", with all that that entails, then a case CAN be made that it has the right to execute people. If the society as a whole has decided that some crimes are so heinous that they deserve death, the the government can be expected to follow through on that.

I understand that that is a purely theoretical situation, as the implementation is nearly always doomed to fail.

Found this via Digg.com:

Sentenced to death for a crime even the state admits he didn't commit

Holy shit, that's preposterous.

Jesus.