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They were never the same after.....

post #1 of 71
11/11/05 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
When a formerly respected actor starts making shit, or a promising director starts doing the same, sometimes its hard to look back and see where they went wrong.

This is sort of motivated by Guy Ritchie's "Revolver" and the lashing it is getting. "Lock Stock" and "Snatch" might not be everyone's cup of tea, but they wre pretty good movies with a real style and energy. Ritchie seemed like one to watch. Then he made "Swept Away", a disaster, and retreated to his safer crime genre, which he screwed up on again. Now the first two seem like the exceptions. It's ridiculous, and no, I don't think its fair game in criticism of his films, but it really did start after he married Madonna.

And my other most notable disappoinment, Robert Deniro. It's almost impossible to muster up any excitement for him nowadays, he's not just making crap, but he's bad in the crap. Even through the 90s he was making good films, good performances. I looked at his filmography rying to figure it out. Even in 1998 he did "Ronin", a fantastic film. But 1999 had "Anaylze This" where I think he discovered he himself could be slightly funny, and that's the direction he took. After that its "Bullwinkle", "Showtime", and "Analyze That".

The question here is trying to track down and pinpoint that point of no return, where movie people went wrong. Who stands out?
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post #2 of 71
11/11/05 at 9:12pm
Harrison Ford.
The guy's very talented, and will always be one of my favorite actors since he's played some of my favorite characters of all time - Han Solo and Indiana Jones. However he's had a couple huge misses at the box office recently and is in need of a serious hit.
After Air Force One he tried the comedy/romantic drama route with Random Hearts and Six Days, Seven Nights and met with failure. He had a comeback with What Lies Beneath, a terrific performance showing how evil he can actually be. On that success came one-two punch of duds: K-19 and Hollywood Homicide. Since then (2003), he's been rather quiet.
I think he'll be returning to form with 2006's Firewall, which sounds good.
I also like that he's mellowed out with age and accepted his place in Star Wars history (I remember him not wanting anything to do it for a long time). Since then, he seems to be more easy going. I hope his next few films are hits, as I'd like to see him back on top. But if not, we know he will be with Indiana Jones IV which will be a smash no matter what.
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post #3 of 71
11/11/05 at 9:42pm
Ford was never the same after THE MOSQUITO COAST. It was expected that it would make him into a leading man and an actor's actor, but when it was poorly received Ford stopped taking chances and stayed with the tried and true. Damn shame, because both the movie and Ford's performance are excellent.

I think Oliver Stone was never the same after NIXON. The fact that no one seemed to care about it at all really put him off his game, I think. He certainly hasn't been the same since - the confidence and bravado is missing from his work.
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post #4 of 71
11/11/05 at 10:24pm
I would say that DR. DOLITTLE was the end of Eddie Murphy to me. Not that he was making many great films for most of the 90's but that seemed like the first one where he realized he could tap into the family market. The only watchable film he has appeared in since was BOWFINGER.

Even though EYE SEE YOU was the first film Stallone did after COPLAND, GET CARTER was the first one released after his return to challenging roles. That's the one that started his trip to oblivion and now finds him desperately trying to recapture his glory through what appear to be ill-advised sequels (that I will still end up seeing).
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post #5 of 71
11/12/05 at 2:01pm
Nicolas Cage and Honeymoon in Vegas.

Stephen Soderbergh and Kafka.

Tim Burton and Batman.

Laura Dern and Jurassic Park.

Kyle McLachlan and Showgirls.

John Carpenter and Village of the Damned or Escape from LA.

Woody Allen and Soon-Yi Previn.
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post #6 of 71
11/12/05 at 2:45pm
Ah, so this is a jumping the shark thread, eh?

Although I think he was losing it after getting that second Oscar, Kevin SPacey didn't hit rock bottom for me until the sanctimonious, utter tripe that was K-PAX. He's hit lower lows since then, but I recall that being my most hated movie for quite awhile.
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post #7 of 71
11/12/05 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan

Stephen Soderbergh and Kafka.
You're joking, right?
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post #8 of 71
11/12/05 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
And my other most notable disappoinment, Robert Deniro. It's almost impossible to muster up any excitement for him nowadays, he's not just making crap, but he's bad in the crap. Even through the 90s he was making good films, good performances. I looked at his filmography rying to figure it out. Even in 1998 he did "Ronin", a fantastic film. But 1999 had "Anaylze This" where I think he discovered he himself could be slightly funny, and that's the direction he took. After that its "Bullwinkle", "Showtime", and "Analyze That".
My belief is that Deniro's downfall is tied with that sex-ring scandal he was involved with in Europe. I believe this cost him a lot money so that is why he is desperate in his movie roles. How else could Showtime and the American Express ad be explained?
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post #9 of 71
11/12/05 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Ford was never the same after THE MOSQUITO COAST. It was expected that it would make him into a leading man and an actor's actor, but when it was poorly received Ford stopped taking chances and stayed with the tried and true. Damn shame, because both the movie and Ford's performance are excellent.
I'd say after "The Fugitive". I've seen almost every Harrison Ford movie till this point... and after that, there's mainly boring crap.

Maybe this is hard to say, but after you hit the 50's, you start getting less and less interesting roles. Maybe that's why so many good actors have accepted crappy roles/movies?


Something that worries me, even if he's far from hitting 50's and he's amazingly good. Haven't seen anything memorable after Edward Norton's 25th hour.... or, if i can be rigid, even Fight Club.

I wonder why so many actors rather prefer non mainstream movies. :P
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post #10 of 71
11/12/05 at 4:20pm
Brian De Palma has had some pretty big misfires since Mission: Impossible. Femme Fatale was alright, and The Black Dahlia has potential, but an Untouchables prequel? Please.

I also think Kevin Smith hasn't made a good film since Mallrats. His subsequent films are often enjoyable, albeit repetitive and forgetable.
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post #11 of 71
11/12/05 at 5:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan
John Carpenter and Village of the Damned or Escape from LA.
I´m a bit ashamed to say this but i actually liked Vampires.
And i think Escape from LA is better than Escape from New York.
*blushes*
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post #12 of 71
11/12/05 at 5:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan
Stephen Soderbergh and Kafka.

Tim Burton and Batman.

Laura Dern and Jurassic Park.
Whaaaaat?! The same Stephen Soderbergh who has since made Out Of Sight, Ocean's Eleven and Traffic? The same Laura Dern who went on to give the performance of a lifetime in Citizen Ruth? And Tim Burton....who followed Batman with Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood, The Nightmare Before Christmas, Sleepy Hollow and The Corpse Bride? Was Pee Wee's Big Adventure REALLY that promising that everytihng following it seemed like a colossal letdown?
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post #13 of 71
11/12/05 at 6:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJuniorMint
Whaaaaat?! The same Stephen Soderbergh who has since made Out Of Sight, Ocean's Eleven and Traffic?
Traffic was horrific. Played shamelessly on white middle class fears of nasty black men having their way with their nubile pure white daughters. Melodramatic sludge. This review pretty much nails it: http://www.beckerfilms.com/Traffic.htm
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post #14 of 71
11/12/05 at 7:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan
Traffic was horrific. Played shamelessly on white middle class fears of nasty black men having their way with their nubile pure white daughters. Melodramatic sludge. This review pretty much nails it: http://www.beckerfilms.com/Traffic.htm
I've not seen "Traffic" since it originally played in cinemas. It's not an especially well-written review, but it does sum up a lot of why I felt the film to be affecting, but not in a way that made me care to see it again.
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post #15 of 71
11/12/05 at 7:25pm
I'd have to say John Landis after Twilight Zone...
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post #16 of 71
11/12/05 at 8:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Chocula
I'd have to say John Landis after Twilight Zone...
Certainly Vic Morrow was never the same...

I'd say that John Carpenter was never the same after "Big Trouble in Little China". That film and the ones previous were filled with story telling passion. While he's had some very fun films after that ("They Live" in particular) to act as if either "Escape from LA" or "Village of the Damned" were high water marks is frightening. Vampires is better than both (although still lacking. If it wasn't for James Woods I think it would be nigh unwatchable) However, that being said, I consider Ghosts of Mars to be underrated. I like its stucture, it has some decent performances, and is an interesting retread on his own "Assault on Precinct 13" John will always be one of my favorite directors, but he seems more interested in watching basketball or playing video games with his son.
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post #17 of 71
11/12/05 at 10:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Randolph Carter
And i think Escape from LA is better than Escape from New York.
Oh. My. God.
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post #18 of 71
11/12/05 at 10:28pm
Since THEY LIVE is my favorite of his films I'd elect MEMOIRS OF AN INVISIBLE MAN as where things started to cave in on Carpenter. I don't think GHOSTS OF MARS eye raped me as much as others claim it did them, but it's a bad sign when I look at that as a high point out of the last 15 years of his career.

That being said his episode of "Masters of Horror" is probably the only one I'll end up watching.
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post #19 of 71
11/12/05 at 11:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moltisanti
Since THEY LIVE is my favorite of his films I'd elect MEMOIRS OF AN INVISIBLE MAN as where things started to cave in on Carpenter. I don't think GHOSTS OF MARS eye raped me as much as others claim it did them, but it's a bad sign when I look at that as a high point out of the last 15 years of his career.

That being said his episode of "Masters of Horror" is probably the only one I'll end up watching.
I would agree that Memoirs is where it all went south, as I think that both They Live and Prince of Darkness are better than many would have it. After Starman, I was beginning to think he could make anything work. What the hell happened to the John Carpenter with all the talent?

I would like to add Jeff Goldblum. Watching the extras on The Fly, I'm reminded of the potential he had after that. He was successful, and had great critical praise for that performance. He just seemed to lose momentum. Or maybe he just became so damn quirky that people checked out on him. The ticks, and the odd way he expressed himself, which used to be interesting, have become exaggerated, and now he can't play anyone but Jeff Goldblum. Jurassic Park might be the last time he worked for me at all.
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post #20 of 71
11/13/05 at 2:43am
Can't believe I forgot this one:

Malcolm McDowell, with Calligula. Actually, I'm not sure when the transition exactly occurred but he went from a really interesting actor to the one-note wonder playing the same villain over and over in crap like Tank Girl, Star Trek: Generations, and Firestarter 2.
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post #21 of 71
11/13/05 at 5:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommy five-tone
Ford was never the same after THE MOSQUITO COAST. It was expected that it would make him into a leading man and an actor's actor, but when it was poorly received Ford stopped taking chances and stayed with the tried and true. Damn shame, because both the movie and Ford's performance are excellent.
I don't know about this. Ford's career, if you look at it, "Mosquito Coast" is the exception, not the rule. "The Fugitive", "Patriot Games", "Clear and Present Danger", "Presumed Innocent", and "Air Force One" vary in quality, but I think they could all be called "good", as were his performances.

Harrison Ford sealed his fate when he passed on "Traffic". He was far better suited for the Wakefield role thn Douglas, and basically made the role what it was by working with Soderbergh. That was his Best Actor Oscar, and he chickened out. Since then, all downhill.

Quote:
I think Oliver Stone was never the same after NIXON. The fact that no one seemed to care about it at all really put him off his game, I think. He certainly hasn't been the same since - the confidence and bravado is missing from his work.
I think there's something to this. "JFK" got assassination documents released by Congress. I think that was like the ultimate cinematic orgasm for a guy like Stone, and then to have "Nixon" be such a non-entity, I think it may have screwd with him. "Any Given Sunday" is good, but his previous fire seems gone.
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post #22 of 71
11/13/05 at 8:12pm
but he seems more interested in watching basketball or playing video games with his son.[/QUOTE]

THAT BASTARD!
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post #23 of 71
11/13/05 at 8:45pm
-- Cameron after Titanic. Because he hasn't done a damn thing since then.

-- Hitchcock after Psycho. Because he'd indulged all his fantasies and had nothing left.

-- Pacino after Scent of a Woman. Because he realized the caricature could work.

(Edited because my brain is running about as smoothly as the boards today.)
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post #24 of 71
11/13/05 at 8:46pm
Come on Dickson.

edit: forgiven.
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post #25 of 71
11/13/05 at 8:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan
Nicolas Cage and Honeymoon in Vegas.
Movies Nicolas Cage made after Honetmoon in Vegas:

Leaving Las Vegas

Face/Off

The Rock

Bringing Out the Dead

Adaptation

Matchstick Men

Lord of War

The Weather Man

He's had his share of crap along the way, but he has in no way gone to shit.
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post #26 of 71
11/13/05 at 9:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan
Traffic was horrific. Played shamelessly on white middle class fears of nasty black men having their way with their nubile pure white daughters. Melodramatic sludge. This review pretty much nails it: http://www.beckerfilms.com/Traffic.htm

That was like two scenes, and the movie wasn't about that. Nice try though.
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post #27 of 71
11/13/05 at 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by g-dude
Movies Nicolas Cage made after Honetmoon in Vegas:
On your list, I'd only agree with Leaving Las Vegas and Adaptation. But my main point about Cage is that he was "never the same" after Honeymoon in Vegas, because he went from an actor whose name would make me want to see a movie, to being an actor who I would see a movie despite his name being attached to it.

Con Air made me lose a lot of most of my remaining respect for Cage, Cusack and Malkovich. Buscemi, for some reason, I gave a pass. He's such an adorable little scamp it's hard to be angry for long.
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post #28 of 71
11/14/05 at 12:43am
Brandon Lee after The Crow.
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post #29 of 71
11/14/05 at 2:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan
Traffic was horrific. Played shamelessly on white middle class fears of nasty black men having their way with their nubile pure white daughters.
Isn't that every WASP's greatest fear?
That being said, i liked Traffic when I first saw it, but I bought the DVD a few years back and never watched it...that probably means something.
For me, Pacino lost it long ago...can't quite put my finger on it, but the only thing in the last decade I have liked from him is "Insomnia" and that was a remake.
Hoo-ah!
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post #30 of 71
11/14/05 at 9:29pm
Ed O'Neil after Married with Children. I can't take him seriously in anything I see him in. I remember Jeremy Schaap interviewing him on Sportscenter about Jiu-Jitsu and how Ed had used it to protect himself once and it was obvious that Schaap was ready to explode with laughter at any moment.

F.T.W. Kid
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post #31 of 71
11/14/05 at 10:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattimus
For me, Pacino lost it long ago...can't quite put my finger on it, but the only thing in the last decade I have liked from him is "Insomnia" and that was a remake. Hoo-ah!
Not that he hasn't done more than his fair share of crap, but...The Insider? Donnie Brasco? The Merchant of Venice?
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post #32 of 71
11/14/05 at 10:15pm
James Caan had a terrific '70s and definitely went out with Thief.
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post #33 of 71
11/14/05 at 10:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMCG
Brandon Lee after The Crow.
"During" would be a more accurate prepsosition, no?

Carpenter has some real clunkers to his credit, but his somewhat-recent output has blessed me with one of my favorites of his: In the Mouth of Madness. And like others in the thread I adore They Live and find Vampires serviceable. So despite a spotty record and no cinema releases really worth talking about so far this century (with no signs of much of a desire to change this), I've no qualms with Carpenter.

No, I'm afraid it likely comes as little surprise that my vote goes toward Lucas, post-divorce. I think that took a big toll on him and while he continued/continues (?) to have a great desire to tap into creativity I don't see him succeed often at realizing it properly. The sad truth is that, as I see it, the man has directed only a single worthy Star Wars movie (and still the best, despite sequels being more entertaining and revelatory). For the record, I consider the prequel trilogy an Elseworlds-type story that declines in quality of acting, structure and coherence but increasingly delivers on spectacle (but it still isn't really Star Wars). Oh, and watching all the episodes "in order" is something I will only do once. This, I find, is simply a horrid experience to jaded fans like myself.

Bring on Indy IV!
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post #34 of 71
11/14/05 at 10:53pm
That Becker guy is an idiot
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post #35 of 71
11/14/05 at 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atomic Dan
Traffic was horrific. Played shamelessly on white middle class fears of nasty black men having their way with their nubile pure white daughters. Melodramatic sludge. This review pretty much nails it: http://www.beckerfilms.com/Traffic.htm

uh, ok... care to address any of the other crap you said?
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post #36 of 71
11/14/05 at 10:55pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ploid
That Becker guy is an idiot
he's well beyond the realm of idiocy.
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post #37 of 71
11/14/05 at 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
-- Pacino after Scent of a Woman. Because he realized the caricature could work.
I would take the 10 years Pacino had after SCENT OF A WOMAN over the 10 years before he won that Oscar any time.

10 Years before SCENT: AUTHOR! AUTHOR!, SCARFACE, REVOLUTION, SEA OF LOVE, DICK TRACY, GODFATHER 3, and FRANKIE AND JOHNNY.

10 years after SCENT (this isn't everything but is a good sample of those years): CARLITO'S WAY, HEAT, DONNIE BRASCO, THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, THE INSIDER, ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, and INSOMNIA.
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post #38 of 71
11/14/05 at 11:43pm
M. Night Shyamalan after unbreakable. To be honest he seems to be a one hit onder with the 6th sense (amazing movie), unbreakable was ok but not great... after we got signs and the crap that was the village.
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post #39 of 71
11/15/05 at 12:25am
the obvious answer is coen brothers after man who wasnt there, imo.
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post #40 of 71
11/15/05 at 1:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic
the obvious answer is coen brothers after man who wasnt there, imo.
Don't you think it's a little soon to be making that call? Just because you didn't like their last two movies (which, incidentally, came out in the same year), that hardly means they're ruined forever.
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post #41 of 71
11/15/05 at 2:55am
the movies didnt come out in the same year. but theres a lot more to it than that, i didnt just say that because i 'didnt like those movies'.
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post #42 of 71
11/15/05 at 9:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moltisanti
I would take the 10 years Pacino had after SCENT OF A WOMAN over the 10 years before he won that Oscar any time.
I wouldn't at all. And he's my favorite actor.

Quote:
10 Years before SCENT: AUTHOR! AUTHOR!, SCARFACE, REVOLUTION, SEA OF LOVE, DICK TRACY, GODFATHER 3, and FRANKIE AND JOHNNY.
"Scarface" is overrated, and "Sea of Love" is as basic and safe as any of his lesser work in the 90s. "Frankie and Johnny" is a nice romcom, but again, not really pushing his talents. "Revolution" is terrible. "Dick Tracy" is fun, but definitely a caricature if people are going to blast him for that after "Scent". "The Godfather Part III" is good, and you're leaving out "Glengarry Glen Ross", which is actually his best work from those 10 years.

Quote:
10 years after SCENT (this isn't everything but is a good sample of those years): CARLITO'S WAY, HEAT, DONNIE BRASCO, THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE, THE INSIDER, ANY GIVEN SUNDAY, and INSOMNIA.
Omitting "The Devil's Advocate", which I despise, I would take any of these movies over any of his work in those previous 10 years, again, "Glengarry" possible exempted. All of these films are great, and his performances as well. Also, "The Merchant of Venice" is his best work in recent years.
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post #43 of 71
11/15/05 at 9:48am
Jennifer lopez - after out of sight and her transition into Jlo

Tom Sizemore and Heidi Fleiss
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post #44 of 71
11/15/05 at 10:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCynic
the movies didnt come out in the same year. but theres a lot more to it than that, i didnt just say that because i 'didnt like those movies'.
So.. uh.. why'd you say it, then?
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post #45 of 71
11/15/05 at 10:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
I wouldn't at all. And he's my favorite actor.



"Scarface" is overrated, and "Sea of Love" is as basic and safe as any of his lesser work in the 90s. "Frankie and Johnny" is a nice romcom, but again, not really pushing his talents. "Revolution" is terrible. "Dick Tracy" is fun, but definitely a caricature if people are going to blast him for that after "Scent". "The Godfather Part III" is good, and you're leaving out "Glengarry Glen Ross", which is actually his best work from those 10 years.



Omitting "The Devil's Advocate", which I despise, I would take any of these movies over any of his work in those previous 10 years, again, "Glengarry" possible exempted. All of these films are great, and his performances as well. Also, "The Merchant of Venice" is his best work in recent years.
I was saying that I'd take the Pacino '93-'02 output as well, though I did forget GLENGARRY. THE DEVIL'S ADVOCATE is probably my least favorite of that better set of films, but if there's one role that I don't mind seeing him act a bit looney it would be the devil.
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post #46 of 71
11/15/05 at 10:55am
My wife can't take Tom Cruise seriously in anything ever since Oprah.
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post #47 of 71
11/15/05 at 10:59am
I haven't been able to take Stedman in anything since he was in Oprah.
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post #48 of 71
11/15/05 at 12:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moltisanti
Since THEY LIVE is my favorite of his films I'd elect MEMOIRS OF AN INVISIBLE MAN as where things started to cave in on Carpenter. I don't think GHOSTS OF MARS eye raped me as much as others claim it did them, but it's a bad sign when I look at that as a high point out of the last 15 years of his career.
Surely I'm not alone in thinking that "In the Mouth of Madness" is a much better film than "Ghosts of Mars" (or any other Carpenter film since 1990).
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post #49 of 71
11/15/05 at 4:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette
So.. uh.. why'd you say it, then?
because after that movie was 9/11 which made them move, financing was pulled from 'to the white sea', and one of their family members died. and they clearly havent been the same since.
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post #50 of 71
11/15/05 at 4:49pm
in the mouth of madness is awesome, ghosts of mars doesnt compare.
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