MMA Thread (UFC, Pride, K-1, etc)

Yeah, sad to see Riggs not making weight. I wonder what's up with that?

Didn't he used to weigh around 300 pounds? He may have trouble sticking where he is.

But, for a title fight. C'mon, drop the weight!

Looking forward to tonight's fights. Franklin-Quarry could be a really good one.

Yeah, Riggs could surprise Hughes now that Matt is more relaxed about the fight. He's says the only thing he's disappointed about is that he trained for 5 rounds and now it's only three.

I heard that they had a new tv announcer last night and he was awful. Any truth to that?

I glad to see Tito and Ken back in the UFC. I can't wait to see that Ortiz-Giffith fight. We'll see if Forrest can continue his winning streak. Should be a great fight.

The announcer was a retarded prick (no offence meant to retards).

He had fucking strange facial hair and a weird bald spot on the end of his chin (I assume that's where his boyfriend’s balls are hitting). He actually managed to stun Joe Rogan to silence more than once, which is stunning in itself.

Overall, a great night though. This is the first time I watched the PPV and it was well worth it even though Hughes didn't defend his title. I was actually worried about Nate when he got knocked out; I thought he might have popped his clogs.

And GSP did exactly what I thought he would do, and is quickly becoming my favorite fighter in the UFC. I knew it was over when I heard Sherk scream when he got elbowed in the face, GSP dominated the fight and was even more impressive than his fight with Frank Trigg.

I'm confused with the UFC's Riggs love affair as I have not been impressed with him at any weight. They keep a guy like Riggs and boot Salaverri who was fun as hell to watch.

Franklin freaking killed Quarry. Broke his nose and left him twitching. His leg spasming in the air was crazy.

Did you hear Sherk cry out after GSP broke his nose? I've never heard that before in a fight. Pure handling. I still don't know if GSP can beat Hughes though. Hughes just has freakish strength and is tough as nails. Canada is putting out some great fighters though between him and David Loiseau.

Great to see BJ Penn but I don't know if he can realistically fight at 170. From what I understand, he's been fighting at around 205 lately. Don't think 170 is a manageable goal for him.

I'm psyched about Ortiz being back. Zuffa and Dana finally pull their head out and realizes people love to watch him, win or lose. He's also fighting for what's right and that's getting the fighters more money. They deserve it. So bizarre too given the latest Ortiz interviews at Sherdog and his discussions with Don King. He'll destroy Shamrock, IMO.

Arlovsky will kill FM. It's a shame the UFC has not signed more quality heavies. Speaking of, the 2 guys that fought before Franklin should be banned forever.

Regarding the announcer, the new guy was brutal. I hesitate to say he was worse than Goldberg, who I despise, but he was. I enjoy Rogan because he's knowledgeable and funny. I think they need to bring in an older, more legitimate announcer to offset him.

***edited to add that a Rogan vs. Wesley Snipes fight is a legitimate possibility. There is actually a contract out there waiting for Snipes approval.

Due to Vince McMahon's wonderful contract with Foxtel in Australia (ie - "you can have ALL my increasingly horrible shows, even the ones WE don't even watch, at a reduced rate as long as you don't show anything that can be considered "competition to us"), it is with great moral instability that I thank eMule once again for providing me with a surprisingly clear copy of UFC 56 (as well as season two of TUF and everything that we will discuss henceforth on this thread).

56 was an interesting show for a few reasons. I'll do the bullet-point thing due to laziness (off to training soon, gotta conserve energy) -

* Horn VS Prangley. Funny how the crowd was cheering Horn's submission attempts from the bottom, and all-round keeping busy while Prangley does nothing but lay & pray, yet they boo the decision going to Horn at the end. The two things this makes me aware of is that the general audience is becoming alot more savvy as to how MMA works and aren't just looking for stand-up KO's anymore, which is always a good thing. And secondly, are we seeing a change of direction in the UFC judge's scoring criteria? They've always had a tendency to blindly just score for the guy on top (ie - favouring straight wrestling), despite the fighter's activity. I hope this isn't just a one-off thing.

* Announcements. Glad to see Mir back as I really like the guy, but I certainly don't rate his chances against Arlovski, who I consider the ONLY HW in the UFC that would even stand a chance in Pride. Esepecially after Mir's accident, and if the rumours of him having toruble changing levels are true, he's a sitting duck. Still, a 75% Mir is, arguably, better than a 100% Buentello, Eilers, Kyle, Jordan, Gonzaga . . . erm . . . shit. Let's face it, Arlovski and Mir *ARE* the UFC Heavyweight Division. Oh, there's Sylvia . . . I guess . . .

* Ortiz & Shamrock as coaches for TUF 3. Well I guess they've given up on trying to create new talent for their promotion and figure those 13 weeks of TV are better off building up a rematch to a feud that came and went 4 years ago. I have all the respect in the world for Ken, but the man is a dinosaur who didn't evolve with the sport, in my opinion. Not as well as he could have, anyway. Sure, he's been unlucky lately (that fiight with Kaz was stopped early, I don't care what argument you have - Pride's ref stoppages are more wildly inconsistent than the UFC's), but the bottom line is that half the guys that they pick to be on the show will probably be able to beat Ken! Ortiz, on the other hand, has proven he's a B-Level fighter who can't step it up against the cream of the crop, but maintain's an A-List Actor's ego. It's all about Tito so I don't see him being the best choice to coach a group of incoming talent.
Problem is, I can't think off the top of my head who two better suggestions would be, so fuck it. They need ratings, and they're doing pro-wrestling better than WWE right now, so it's all good, I guess.

* BJ Penn is back. Yay. And man, is he walking around at 190 now or something?! Jesus! Didn't he step up a weight to fight Hughes in the first place? Now it looks like he'll have to take two steps DOWN. Either way, couldn't care less. Talented fighter, can't argue that, but so is Matt "The Bore" Lindland and he doesn't stop me from hitting the FF button, either.

* Hughes & Riggs. Well, it was rather anti-climactic after Riggs failed to make weight, but did anyone seriously give Riggs a chance in the first place? There's a reason why he wasn't the first choice to begin with, and no one I know or train with even rated the guy that highly, myself included. I was expecting a 1st or 2nd round loss, 5 rounds or not. Was NOT expecting a kimura, though. Nice work by Hughes, who didn't seem to gain any heel heat off the crowd after TUF2. I dunno what Riggs is doing at such a low weight - he looks fantastic at that size, but he's obviously losing alot of strength or conditioning to do it. Hell, if I drop 5kg I lose a tonne of strength, let alone 10-15!

* St Pierre VS Sherk. Seemed like a good match-up on paper, didn't it? Yeesh. St Pierre is brilliant. I love this guy. I dare anyone here to NOT love the guy. How can you not? You can't, that's how! He's just the man. Awesome promo post-match, too. He's got character, and that's exactly what this sport needs - characters and personalities to put the asses in seats. Once the asses are in the seats, THEN let the in-cage abilities take care of the rest. The US audience would love someone like "Rampage", all swagger and badmouthing, but can get the job done. The whole "he's a great fighter, it's an honour to face him" thing is great and it's also wonderful that they MEAN it when they say it, but too much of it doesn't sell tickets. People want to see conflict. Biggest gates UFC ever took? The ones with personal grudges to settle - Ortiz/Shamrock, Ortiz/Liddell . . . it's not rocket science.
One of those grey areas for me, personally, as I do have resepct for anyone I fight in MMA and honestly believe in all those things all those fighters say about one another. but having also spent the past 5-6 years doing pro-wrestling as well, I also know the value and power of markeitng to an audience and manipulating their emotions. It's a fine line, walking between the vaudeville theatrics of WWE-style match-up hype & the traditional customs and respect of a legitimate combative sport, but I think it's one that MMA has to tread to get the exposure they want.

* Heavyweight Match. Dud. Pure & simple. I hope Gonzaga didn't earn himself another chance with that last-second KO, because that really doesn't justify such a poor performance. The commentators just ripping into these two guys was the ebst thing the UFC could've possibly done to salvage such a piss-poor showing. Too many times in the past (in all promotions) I've seen horrible fights try to get covered up with comments about skill and difficulty etc etc to try and make it look better than it is. Only problem is, if you're a first-time viewer to the sport, and the "experts" are telling you this is the best MMA has to offer you, you're not likely to come back for more. I'm glad the UFC have finally realised this and are letting the guys call it how they see it.

* Quarry VS Franklin. Flat out ugliest KO I've seen in years. It's weird how watching something like this both ramps up the adrenaline to unbelievable heightsd, but also makes you feel pretty damn nauseous as well. Quarry was a mess. The contracted muscles and stiff leg were just . . . shit, poor bastard. Hmmm, Zuffa better start looking for some talented middleweights, cos I can't see anyone on the near horizon giving Rich too much trouble. Just so well-rounded, and like Randy, he's a fantastic ambassador for the sport. Talented, well-spoken, educated, respectful - it's just impossible to not like the guy.

Bah, most people probably gave up reading all this somewhere around the St Pierre/Sherk paragraph, anyway. I'm off to training - take care guys!

PS - New announcer guy made me LOL legit a couple of times, sometimes in a good way, sometimes not. Take that for what you will.

Thanks for your thoughts NZ. I read them all the way through.

TUF3 will definitely be about Ortiz and Shamrock. That's why people are going to watch. They will be hoping that something will happen in the house or in the ring or out of the ring.

I can't wait.

Yeah, about Nate Quarry, why end his push so early? The UFC always seems to think they have more guys than they actually do.

Thanks Del. And couldn't agree more, Mr Car.

Pride (or it's "Bushido" off-shoot) is absolutely crawling with world-class middleweights. If you haven't seen the past two Bushido PPV's, I highly recommend them - awesome stuff, I really can't praise it highly enough. That's where Baroni is currently, and doing alright for himself, too. I'm not a HUGE Baroni fan, but I hate the UFC's "what have you done for me lately?" approach to booking fighters the minute they hit a stumbling block and take a loss or two, even to top-shelf competition.

Poor guy really got ripped off, I feel. And he was money if they used him properly. If Prince Naseem did nothing else in the short time he made the boxing world interesting, he taught us that the entire world will tune in to see a smartarse get a fist in the mouth. Baroni was the UFC's Golden Smartarse, and they dropped the ball with it, I feel.

There's a bunch of guys from the The Ultimate Fighter in this one, isn't there?

Wow, that card looks remarkably like the card listed 3 posts above yours. Oh wait, it is the same.

And if you don't know who Chuck Liddell is, you don't need to be shilling for UFC, dumbass.

Couture is gonna win that title again, and then retire I think. The card after that is shaping up to be pretty good as well.

I've been sour on Ludwig since he ripped off Genki Sudo by decision a couple of years back. Not Ludwig's fault as such, I know, but I'm bitter so fuck anyone who tries to talk sense to me. :P

57 and 58 are both shaping up to be interesting cards at least. Nice to see them throwing Mir a can to come back with.

Holy crap...ROYCE GRACIE vs. Matt Hughes? I'll be buying the PPV in May. They've got me roped in.

Leben is impressive, his chin is rock fucking solid. The stoppage might've been a little early, but Rivera wasn't exactly trying to get up either.

Burkman was impressive too. He's strong as hell.

Bonner continues to impress. He doesn't look the part, but he gets it done.

The main event was pretty much shit. Sylvia isn't that good, his size just gives guys match up problems. Arlovski is going to run through him again.

I found it amusing that Leben and Burkman called out the champs in their weight classes. Self-confidence is great, but they would both get railroaded against Franklin & Hughes respectively. And Arlovski's face during the main event was great. He was just sitting back thinking, "These guys will be just another day at the office for me."

The "historic" anouncement, didn't live up to the billing. It should be an entertaining fight, but while I think Gracie is still dangerous. Hughes is going to blow him out in that fight I think. Assuming he beats Parysian, which I think he will.

I thought that decision was kind of crappy. To me, Sylvia really didn't do anything in the fight. Silva worked more and got better shots in as the fight went on. Sylvia stopped him from going to the ground, but even the crowd started booing him towards the end.

Maybe I'm trying to add some more discussion to this thread or maybe I'm just bored, but I was wondering what some other people thought about this: Yesterday I ordered PrideFC's Hardcore Knockouts Vol. 2. I've always loved Pride much better than the UFC, in part because of the quality of fighter and the fact that they're not as restricted in the ring as the UFC guys are. Anyway, it's been a while since I've watched any MMA PPVs with any regularity (my cash flow isn't exactly what I'd like) and you can only gleam so much reading reports of the fights in magazines or on the net. It's nice that the UFC and Pride are finally on cable, so at least I can catch some of the fights I miss, even though it might be a while after it happens.

Anyway, as I watched I actually cringed a couple of times. I've seen plenty of fights on TV and I own my share of tapes, but damn, some of that was a little uncalled for. Do you think that the knees to the head and the soccer kicks to a downed opponent really add anything to a fight? Some of the fighters (I'm looking at you, Chute Boxe Academy) really seem to take delight in stomping on a man's face. The refs aren't afraid to let some of the fights go a little longer than they should, either. CroCop caught Dos Caras with a left roundhouse kick to the head. Caras slumped forward, into a kind of crouch position. It was obvious that he was out. Mirko hesitated for a second and then gave him a left hook to the head just for the hell of it. Anyway, what do you think? Do the less restrictive rules make the fights more exciting or just more barbaric? I'm sure someone else here has seen the Mark Coleman vs. Allan Goes fight. I don't like Goes, but Coleman threw three, maybe even four knees to the head that were unnecessary. Somebody's gonna get seriously hurt with shit like that going on.

F.T.W. Kid

That stuff, to me, is the referee's responsibility. When you fight, you're trained to go until the bell rings or the ref stops you. One of my trainers fought in a K-1 Rules kickboxing fight about a month ago, and 57 seconds into the fight, he caught the guy turning back around from a spin kick and hit him right in the ribs with his own kick. The guy began to drop to one knee, but the ref didn't do anything, so my trainer followed with another kick to his chest. The ref then jumped in and pushed back my trainer, and counted the guy out. My trainer is a really nice guy, but he's really intense in the ring, and that's just how he fights--go until the bell rings or the ref stops you. He even apologized to the ref and the other fighter for the 2nd kick, and was happy to not be DQ'd for it.

Hell, in the UFC Fight Night just a few weeks back, that guy got caught with a short right hook to the jaw, dropped to his knees, and the ref stopped the fight. The guy that got clocked was fine, and he even shook his head after the ref stopped the fight. But he agreed that the ref was right in stepping in right after the knockdown. I do notice those Pride/K-1 fights are a bit more brutal than the UFC, and that the refs tend to wait a bit longer before they stop a fight, unless there's a tap-out.

I saw this 6' 11" kickboxer run through a bunch of guys in a tourney, then he fought the final guy, and he lost after getting kicked in the quad (!). You just never know what's going to take someone down, or when that one shot hits the other guy just right.

If the UFC could allow stomps and such on the ground they probably would, but I believe they have a much more stringent set of rules they need to abide by because they are governed by the Nevada State of Athletics. So they're just happy to have their license. That's also why the judging tends to be terrible in UFC events, because they get stuck with boxing judges a lot.

Yeah, wasn't that why they changed the rules from truly being "No Holds Barred" to having some actual rules like what's been mentioned for the UFC? Because I remember at the very beginning of the UFC, they struggled to find venues to have their fights, as most places "outlawed" what they were doing. I think they even had a PPV fight at a tiny place in Mobile, AL, because it was one of the few places that would let them fight.

Yeah, Japan has no such thing as state athletic commisions. The UFC has to answer to authorities like that which is the reason for the stricter rules. At first their appeal was that NHB atmosphere, but as soon as people started tuning out (and they were dropped from PPV because the state athletic commissions wouldn't authorize their fights) they finally crawled out of the hole they dug themselves when the Fertitta's and Dana White took over. I think a big part of it is the refs, some of them are a bit slow to jump in and stop a fight, but that shouldn't give fighters free reign to be assholes. You can tell when a guy is done. Yet, some fighters keep pounding away anyway. I'm not saying any names, Gomi...............

F.T.W. Kid

Ref's and their stoppages (in both Pride & UFC) depend solely on who's image needs protecting. I hate to say it, but it's true. Let's run down a few examples off the top of my head . . .

* I'm not saying Forrest didn't rock Sinosic with that punch, but comparing it to how badly Trigg was allowed to pound the crap out of Hughes after felling him with the low blow in their rematch, and considering Elvis' strength has always been from working off his back, I don't see how they can justify stopping it before Forrest could even follow him down to the canvas.

* Cast your mind back to the Baroni/Lindland fight. Back when Baroni was their trash-talking, ripped-to-shreds poster boy with the drawing power of 20-second KO's. Is it just me, or did the round that ended with Baroni whaling on Lindland's ribs while he was turtled up on the ground seem to go for an extra 8-10 seconds, almost as if they were hoping the ref would stop the fight?

* I know the Sakuraba/Shamrock match is cause for much debate, as it was indeed a flash KO, but the ref had leapt in before Ken even hit the ground, and yet in the Bushido tournament, heavy favourites not only hit the ground, but received 4-6 undefended curb stomps to the head before the refs decide to step in and end it.

I could go on for hours. The bottom line, however, is that they defend whoever needs defending, or whoever's image needs to be built up or rebuilt. It's pretty fucking annoying, but I just accepted it as part of the sport a long time ago.

You just jogged my memory, NZ. Back when I watched Pride on a more regular basis, I can remember them trying to pad reps/give special attention to a few fighters. Daijiro Matsui springs to mind. He was allowed to fight a good number of fights even though he's not very good; if he was a foreigner, I doubt they'd of kept him in Pride that long.

F.T.W. Kid

For some examples of Pride's refereeing style, and some brutal knockouts, here's a Google Video. (Warning for those at work or those averse to violent sport, don't click the link.)

You can definitely see some times where the refs really should have stopped the fight earlier and probably should have just flat out tackled one of the combatants to get him to stop. I vaguely remember a UFC fight from several years ago where the ref actually tackled one of the fighters to get him to stop and the fighter got up really pissed. I think he might have even gotten a bloody nose from it or something. But I'd still rather have that than some of the shit on display in the video.

With all that said, I do marginally prefer Pride to UFC if only because the higher level of talent follows the money to Japan so you can see some really great fights. But that could change with the growing popularity of the UFC thanks to Spike TV's exposure. And I have to say in a trade between knees and elbows, I prefer to see elbows. They're more exciting and dramatic in my opinion even if they can pre-maturely end a bout that could have gone on and been more exciting in the long run.

I guess it's not so much the knees and soccer kicks I mind so much in Pride, it's the fact that the refs don't seem to know when to step between two fighters. ccubed, you bring up a good point. Pride is better not because of the looser rules(they help)but because of the caliber of talent. I don't think that the UFC will ever be bigger than Pride. UFC is coming up and becoming more mainstream, but no way you see them filling the same size stadiums that Pride could fill.

F.T.W. Kid

I agree with you, Kid. And the major reason why is because Boxing in the US has a stranglehold on mainstream cambat sports and anything outside of that has so much subversive propaganda going against it that it's hard to grow in popularity. On the VERY rare occasion that a magazine like Sports Illustrated does a story on MMA, it's usually filled with incorrect information and years-old news reports or references.

Japan has never had a huge boxing scene and so MMA has more room to grow.

Another thing to consider is that this is pretty much the first generation to have anything like this in it's midst. Our parents didn't have MMA at all, neither did theirs, neither did theirs. This ties in with the proliferation of boxing. Maybe in another 10-15 years, things might be quite different. With a generation growing up with the sport having always been around, as well as having parents telling them about how they remember when the first UFC event was aired and the amount of controversy over it, etc etc . . .

I find it very doubtful that MMA will ever pass boxing in popularity in the US. It might pass it in respect and such, but popularity probably not. MMA fighters aren't gonna be able to command the sort of purses that top-tier boxers get and they'll always have overly stringent rules from State Commissions to deal with.

So Tito Ortiz has reconciled with the UFC and is coming back for UFC 59 to fight forrest griffin and is also one of the coaches along with ken shamrock for season 3 of the ultimate fighter.

Does anyone know what the falling out between ortiz and the UFC actually was? Why did he leave? Was he just getting his ass kicked by the liddells and coutures of the UFC?

And what is up with vitor belfor? Is he still fighting in the UFC?

Tito and Dana White hate each other from what I understand.

But Tito's contract ran up and he wanted a significant pay raise. He felt like he deserved some of the credit for the UFC's success because he was their poster boy for awhile. Dana and the UFC didn't want to pay him because he lost some recent fights and he seemed more interested in being a star than a fighter and because the UFC is pretty cheap when it comes to paying their fighters.

Dana went as far as to ban all Team Punishment gear from ringside, which is Tito's training camp. So I believe there is some bad blood between them. But the UFC and Dana White smartened up and realized that their is still money to be made from Ortiz. Whether its from him losing to Griffin or regaining some of his clout from his glory days and making another run at the Light Heavy Title.

The coaching gig is for ratings alone really. I think they are banking and hoping that Shamrock and Ortiz tear into each other. And from the looks of it, they are going to be fighting each other at the culmination to the season of the show.

As far as Vitor goes, I believe he just had a fight in the Pride MW Grand Prix.

I am relatively new to the UFC world, but have caught up quite abit.

Just curious what ppl in this thread think of Couture's chances against Liddel. I feel like Couture's age is starting to show after going back and seeing what kind of athelte he was earlier in his career. Liddel is pretty damn solid and puts together some vicious punch-kick combos when given an opening.

Anyway Thoughts?

I am actually looking forward to franklin vs. louiseau much more. Both those guys kick ass.

Welcome to the wonderful world of MMA, Fazer.

Yeah, I'm really looking forward to the Middleweight Title bout, too. It's going to end in a KO, and I honestly can't say who by . . . although my heart is with "Ace".

I think Randy has lost a bit of momentum solely due to his age and the fact that realistically, he doesn't have anything to prove by coming back and winning. He's beaten Liddell before (convincingly) . . . I think just because this is the rubber match, it really doesn't mean all that much to Randy in his heart of hearts. He's made a few comments here and there in interviews over the past year or so where, if you pay attention, he doesn't really sound as into it as someone who wants to be the champ should be. I dunno, maybe just the way I interpreted it . . .

Can't wait for the eventual Mir/Arlovski match. I love Mir, but Arlovski's going to kill him.

Wanna talk more but just got home from training and I'm fucked. Sorry.

I see Couture winning this fight and possibly retiring after. Cementing his legacy as maybe the best MMA fighter ever. I think he wins it in the 3rd round via some ferocious ground and pound. I really think this fight is going to be similar to the first one. I believe Randy was too over-confident in his stand up game in the rematch because of the success he had in the first fight. He's gonna look to take Chuck down repeatedly and eventually wear him out and then finish him on the ground.

As for Franklin and Louisea...I see Rich Franklin winning. I think "Ace" is going to reign over that division for a couple of years. And I see him going down as the dominant middleweight of this generation.

anyone know what the circumstances that lead to this were?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...q=royce+gracie

no gloves? in a dojo? why?

While I don't know the exact circumstances that led up to that fight, it's not uncommon to see those kinds of challenge matches. From what I understand, it happens in Brazil quite a bit.

thanks for the info.
i understand that you've gotta have a particular mindset (including a reasonable amount of self confidence / ego) to be a fighter, but why risk this kinda full-contact stuff outside the ring? sparring is one thing (& necessary), but this just looks brutal & kinda pointless.