God is Great! (aka, guess y'all didn't pray hard enough pt. 2) - Page 2

God willing, 300 white Jews will die soon doing something stupid so we can prove you wrong.

Agreed. This is the capper...if you believe in a god, then why is it sad when someone dies? Big deal, you're going to see them again soon, right? Or, do people cry because maybe deep down their faith has waivered a bit and they don't know what to think anymore?

Can't we find it awful that you'd find it hilarious regardless of what faith they were?

Laughing at someone's death is always awful, regardless of any affiliation they might have.

That's the main problem I have with this thread.

Actually, it's pretty much just a re-affirmation of the monstrous stupidity of this particular ritual and the manner in which it has been designed and implemented among Muslim believers.

When something this easily prevented happens once...maybe twice, it's a tragedy. When it happens half a dozen to a dozen times, it becomes a darkly comic farce. I mean, how many people have to die before they install a Disneyland style wrap-around line?

Thank you, thank you; I'll be here all week.

Because loss, no matter how brief, is sad.

This is not only false, but it is a non-sequitur.

Agreed. The question is not about this event being *funny*. Precious few people, even Chewers, would giggle or guffaw at dead people...regardless of how xenophobic they are.

But the fact that people keep lining for a symbolic execution, only to be trampled to death is a tragic comedy. It may even be ironic...but I'm not an expert.

Sorry? 'Loss is sad' as a statement is false?

Yup. For that statement to be true it would mean that any "loss" would always be sad, for any person in the world. Obviously that's not true, and the statement therefore adds very little to the conversation.

Not all losses are sad. For instance, when I lost my virginity, it was a fairly joyous occasion.

edit: Okay, so the hooker was crying, but I think it was just because she knew I was going to kill her.

umm as stupid as having a minute's silence for September 11 victims? or teh reverent silence at the Holocaust Memoriall in Israel? Isn't that stupid? we should have a full on rock concert in there

This ritual has symbolic, religious, cultural meanings fo r Muslims without question. It's part of our spirituality. It is also utterly irrational to someone who isnt a Muslim. If you wanna say it's stupid then by all means do so but remmeber, many of the things humans say and do are seemingly stupid and irrational. They're done because it is socially or symbolically important to do so.

The problem with the Hajj is that the rituals have to be completed under a certain time limit. Even the Prophet did not foresee the millions of pilgrims coming to Mecca. And the area of the stoning is situated between two hills. It's a bottleneck zone. The Saudi authorities have done everything they can to try to ensure the safety of pilgrims in that area but the problem remains. A pious Muslim would say this is also a test, to see if one is patient in adversity while lining up under the heat to throw the stones. Often, a few agressive types get hostile and it gets nasty fast.

During the Mina tunnel stampede for example, pilgrims from one country basically ganged up and tried to force their way into the tunnel. It became a fracas.

The Saudi government has for the past few decades implemented a quota system for every Muslim country and community. This quota is reviewed annually. So, a country like Malaysia might be allowed to send only 20,000 pilgrims in one year. Indonesia 45,000. Limiting the number of pilgrims in this manner is one way of trying to rectify things. It hasnt really worked. Another is upgrading the infrastructure in Mecca.
Some Muslim governments actually have departments that train and advise pilgrims on what to do. Telling Pilgrims where to go in an emergency, how to react and respond etcetc.

Malaysia is one example. It's one reason why Malaysia suffers fewer deaths than most when these tragedies occur

I am happy to announce that thanks to massive refurbishments and better planning, relatively few people were killed while participating in the "pebble throwing" portion of the Hajj.

http://allafrica.com/stories/200701020047.html

Here's a list of prior incidents involving this ceremony:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incidents_during_the_Hajj


I can't help but believe that our enlightened discourse in the wake of last year's tragedy was the catalyst for change.