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Kill Bill

post #1 of 98
1/30/06 at 1:15pm
Thread Starter 
Going through the massive Kill Bill thread from '03 it struck me that rather a large proportion of chud's members loved the hell out of the film including some of the grump bags who usually never seem to be placated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Brigden
Well, I might as well add to this.

Just an amazing film, and one I could watch endlessly. It's at number two in the best of the year so far, but I think with more viewings it'll go up for sure. Just awesome.
While I can understand an immediate gut reaction to the film being positive, the sheer viscera and punch of the film was damnably impressive, I find it disconcerting that a film which plagiarises the very best of asian cinema, too the point where I think at least 60% of the film is a homage, could be viewed so positively.
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post #2 of 98
1/30/06 at 1:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall
I find it disconcerting that a film which plagiarises the very best of asian cinema, too the point where I think at least 60% of the film is a homage, could be viewed so positively.
Why?
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post #3 of 98
1/30/06 at 1:39pm
Well for one thing, it doesn't just plagarize Asian cinema--there's plenty of Italian, American, and everywhereelseian cinema jacked in there. I realize you probably know this, I just want to point it out because there always seems to be an implication that Q is intentionally trying to fool people by ripping off movies he knows Americans haven't seen.

I dunno. I like the idea that Kill Bill is a Frankenstein made up of all of one fan's favorite bits from a life of movie watching, but I think it ends up being more than that. I'm not the first to make this comparison, but Kill Bill is a lot like the Beastie Boys' Pauls Boutique album. It's just a bunch of old stuff mashed together, but the way in which these elements are arranged is art in itself. And you can combine things in interesting ways. Show me the kung fu movie that has the kind of camera movements that the House of Blue Leaves fight has. Show me the Samurai movie where the showdown is played out to an Ennio Morricone score. Come on, you didn't love the way the movie dropped into that extended anime sequence, then came back to "wiggle your big toe?" That was great filmmaking, regardless of how many lines were taken from Lady Snowblood.

And for that matter, show me the genre film that doesn't rip off a dozen other films. I don't see Kill Bill as being any more of a pastiche of stolen elements than Star Wars or Raiders. Q is more obvious about it, maybe more guilty than most, but I keep coming back to the idea that it's not a question of whether you stole elements from other films, but what you do with those stolen elements.
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post #4 of 98
1/30/06 at 1:54pm
Citizen Kane isn't worse because Welles stole camera angles and use of shadow from Fritz Lang.

Gosford Park isn't worse because Altman aped Renoir.

Kill Bill isn't worse because it borrowed from Lady Snowblood.

Artists borrow, and artists steal, but as long as they show it in an interesting way, like Kill Bill, they're forgiven. As long as it's good, why should it matter where the ideas came from?
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post #5 of 98
1/30/06 at 1:55pm
I didn't like it at all. It was too intentionally campy and self-indulgent.

And the non-stop violence and blood got boring really fast.
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post #6 of 98
1/30/06 at 1:55pm
i think it is okay when someone like QT rips off movies because he's doing it for the right reasons. he loves the movies, not because they made money once for someone else so he's just going to do the same thing and make money too.

that being said, i hated kill bill, all of it. probably one of the most overrated films i have ever seen.
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post #7 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shane
Artists borrow, and artists steal, but as long as they show it in an interesting way, like Kill Bill, they're forgiven. As long as it's good, why should it matter where the ideas came from?
You're only saying that because it has 40% less of slant-eyes than a normal Asian film.
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post #8 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:05pm
Well, that is a plus...
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post #9 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:07pm
Yeah, plus the lack of subs. I mean, fuck, who goes to the cinema to read?
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post #10 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie Brigden
You're only saying that because it has 40% less of slant-eyes than a normal Asian film.
Seriously, how do those people even see?
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post #11 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:13pm
That's why they write in those big pictures.
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post #12 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:24pm
I'm not racist or anything, but that race of people is strange and therefore lesser than my own.
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post #13 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:31pm
Practically every director is influenced by other movies. It’s a lot easier to see in Tarantino’s films but that’s because he takes pleasure in letting his appreciation for the movies he loves appear in his work. I’ve always thought the story of KILL BILL borrows a lot from THE LONG KISS GOODNIGHT, not to the point that it’s theft but there are clear similarities. As most have been saying the important thing about Tarantino’s “homages” is what we end up seeing in the finished result, and so far I haven’t had any gripes with those results.
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post #14 of 98
1/30/06 at 2:51pm
I agree that Tarantino managed to create something new by creating the "Frankenstein" of Asian cinema. All artists borrow from somewhere, and as long as they're upfront about it and not completely ripping off the work of others, I don't mind.

I also have to give Tarantino credit for opening the eyes of mainstream America to the joys of various types of Asian cinema. For instance, I had a complete bias against anime before I saw Kill Bill. I thought it was all Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh nonsense. But I loved the anime sequence in Kill Bill so much that I started checking out more of the genre, and found out just how wrong I was. I also saw a hell of a lot more martial arts movies after KB.

So, if it influences fans to go check out more Asian cinema, what's the harm?
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post #15 of 98
1/30/06 at 3:04pm
Excellent point, Supremo. I, too, was an anti-anime person, but KB opened my eyes a little. I don't consider myself a "fan" of anime, per say, but I know it's more than Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh now, as you stated.
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post #16 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:05pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moltisanti
Practically every director is influenced by other movies.
There's a difference between being influenced and having a movie which is essentially made up of shot for shot homages to other films.
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post #17 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall
There's a difference between being influenced and having a movie which is essentially made up of shot for shot homages to other films.
One's a homage and the other's a collage. So what?
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post #18 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Z-Man
And for that matter, show me the genre film that doesn't rip off a dozen other films. I don't see Kill Bill as being any more of a pastiche of stolen elements than Star Wars or Raiders. Q is more obvious about it, maybe more guilty than most, but I keep coming back to the idea that it's not a question of whether you stole elements from other films, but what you do with those stolen elements.
The way in which Tarantino made those homages in "Kill Bill" obvious is very well done. The film is like a discussion about those great moments in cinema, recreating them and thus, forming something totally original.

My favorite moment in vol. 1 is in the House of Blue Leaves scene in which that snippet of music from "Master of the Flying Guillotine" is played, it just gave me goosebumps.
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post #19 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KBM

My favorite moment in vol. 1 is in the House of Blue Leaves scene in which that snippet of music from "Master of the Flying Guillotine" is played, it just gave me goosebumps.
That is what I view as the perfect homage, a little wink of a reference to an incredible movie.

However what Tarantino did with Kill Bill was create his original product by recreating scenes and things which were cool from hundreds of superior movies. And while the more informed may recognise them as the references they are I can gurantee a large portion of the movie going audience simply saw them as inventions of QT himself.
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post #20 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:25pm
Whoah whoah whoah. Are you arguing that all the movies QT references/rips off/blows/whatever are superior to KB? Hundreds of them?
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post #21 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:33pm
Thread Starter 
I'd say The Yakuza Papers, Lady Snowblood, The Lone Wolf and Cub Series, Once Upon A Time In The West, Zatoichi and the Festival of Fire, Master of Flying Guillotin, Twisted Nerve, Death Rides A Horse, The Blood Spattered Bride, Samurai Reincarnation, Citizen Cane, Year of the Dragon, Clan of the White Lotus are all far superior works to Kill Bill which had flagrant rip offs.
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post #22 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall
.
However what Tarantino did with Kill Bill was create his original product by recreating scenes and things which were cool from hundreds of superior movies. And while the more informed may recognise them as the references they are I can gurantee a large portion of the movie going audience simply saw them as inventions of QT himself.
But that’s more an issue for the audience to deal with, not the director. I’m sure there are people who have seen Scorsese’s CAPE FEAR and had no idea that it was a remake. So of course a lot of viewers of KILL BILL aren’t going to know all the little nods Tarantino makes to other films. Whether the movies he was inspired by are superior or not is in the eye of the beholder, but part of the beauty of KILL BILL is that a lot of people enjoy it whether they have seen dozens of kung fu flicks or if the only exposue they’ve had to kung fu is the TV show starring KILL BILL’s title character.
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post #23 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall
I'd say The Yakuza Papers, Lady Snowblood, The Lone Wolf and Cub Series, Once Upon A Time In The West, Zatoichi and the Festival of Fire, Master of Flying Guillotin, Twisted Nerve, Death Rides A Horse, The Blood Spattered Bride, Samurai Reincarnation, Citizen Cane, Year of the Dragon, Clan of the White Lotus are all far superior works to Kill Bill which had flagrant rip offs.
We aren't up to hundreds quite yet.
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post #24 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:45pm
Y'know what? It's small time to rake you over the coals for saying "hundreds." Sorry about that.

Let's look at one movie, say, "Master of the Flying Guillotine." It's a fun picture, but why is it superior to KB?
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post #25 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti
We aren't up to hundreds quite yet.
Sigh..taken from IMDB cos' I couldn't be arsed listing them all


The House Without a Key (1926)
The Lodger (1927)
Scaramouche (1952)
The Wings of Eagles (1957)
The Magnificent Seven (1960)
Tirez sur le pianiste (1960)
Yojimbo (1961)
Tsubaki Sanjûrô (1962)
The Manchurian Candidate (1962)
Marnie (1964)
"Honey West" (1965)
Navajo Joe (1966)
Da zui xia (1966)
Tôkyô nagaremono (1966)
Modesty Blaise (1966)
"Star Trek" (1966)
"The Green Hornet" (1966)
Scandale, Le (1967)
"Ironside" (1967)
Kyuketsuki Gokemidoro (1968)
Kurotokage (1968)
Da uomo a uomo (1968)
Mariée était en noir, La (1968)
Twisted Nerve (1968)
C'era una volta il West (1968)
The Wild Bunch (1969)
Siu kuen wong (1971)
A Clockwork Orange (1971)
Hannie Caulder (1971)
Tian xia di yi quan (1972)
Kozure Ôkami: Shinikazeni mukau ubaguruma (1972)
The Last House on the Left (1972)
Novia ensangrentada, La (1972)
Grande duello, Il (1972)
Shurayukihime (1973)
White Lightning (1973)
Shura-yuki-hime: Urami Renga (1974)
The Doll Squad (1974)
Uomini duri (1974)
Thriller - en grym film (1974)
Gone in 60 Seconds (1974)
Crash che botte! (1974)
Onna hissatsu ken (1974)
Du bi quan wang da po xue di zi (1975)
Kenka karate kyokushinken (1975)
Profondo rosso (1975)
Switchblade Sisters (1975)
Black Sunday (1977)
Eaten Alive (1977)
Sette note in nero (1977)
Hao xia (1978)
Yagyû ichizoku no inbô (1978)
Game of Death (1978)
Grease (1978)
Wu du (1978)
Death Force (1978)
Patrick (1978)
Day of the Woman (1978)
"Hattori Hanzô: Kage no Gundan" (1980)
Friday the 13th (1980)
Apocalypse domani (1980)
Paura nella città dei morti viventi (1980)
Resurrection (1980)
Shogun Assassin (1980)
Si wang ta (1981)
Makai tenshô (1981)
Escape from New York (1981)
Xian si jue (1982)
Venom (1982)
Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan (1982)
Tenebre (1982)
The Professional: Golgo 13 (1983)
Scarface (1983)
Gai shi ji hua (1984)
Year of the Dragon (1985)
Wong ga jin si (1986)
Hotaru no haka (1988)
The Punisher (1989)
Hard to Kill (1990)
3-4x juugatsu (1990)
Miller's Crossing (1990)
Hong fen zhi zun (1991)
Reservoir Dogs (1992)
Unforgiven (1992)
Fong Shi Yu II: Wan fu mo di (1993)
Jûbei ninpûchô (1993)
True Romance (1993)
Tai ji zhang san feng (1993)
Pulp Fiction (1994)
From Dusk Till Dawn (1996)
Gokudô kuroshakai (1997)
Full Tilt Boogie (1997)
"Weißkreuz" (1998)
Kite (1998)
SF: Episode One (1998)
From Dusk Till Dawn 2: Texas Blood Money (1999) (V)
Proboscis (2000)
Wo hu cang long (2000)
Shin jingi naki tatakai (2000)
Batoru rowaiaru (2000)
Koroshiya 1 (2001)
Signs (2002)
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post #26 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti
Y'know what? It's small time to rake you over the coals for saying "hundreds." Sorry about that.

Let's look at one movie, say, "Master of the Flying Guillotine." It's a fun picture, but why is it superior to KB?
It's superior to Kill Bill in that it contains more than 70% original material
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post #27 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:48pm
I love sad little threads like this.
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post #28 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:48pm
OK, you went there. Are you willing to argue that each and every one of these movies is superior to KB?
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post #29 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette
I love sad little threads like this.
Oh, c'mon. It's fun.
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post #30 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 
You pick a film and I'll give you a paragraph on why it is superiror
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post #31 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall
It's superior to Kill Bill in that it contains more than 70% original material
You still haven't proven your thesis that recycling = inferiority. Take Gaslight, for instance. It's a direct remake of a movie that hadn't been made all that long before and it's considered the superior film.
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post #32 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:51pm
From Dusk 'Till Dawn 2 : Texas Blood Money

And no cheating and reusing your 70% argument.
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post #33 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:54pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Millette
From Dusk 'Till Dawn 2 : Texas Blood Money

And no cheating and reusing your 70% argument.
Bastard

From Dusk 'Til Daw 2: Texas Blood Money is a far superior movie to Kill Bill as it allows the criminally underrated Robert Patrick, gah, to showcase his acting chops in a tightly plotted sequel which takes the series in all new direction from the original.
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post #34 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:56pm
Fail.
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post #35 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:56pm
Well played, Spike.
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post #36 of 98
1/30/06 at 5:58pm
Kill Bill isn't that great. The dialogue is a bit flat and goes on too long, and I have to say that the action pales compared to any true Asian action flick.

But the only thing that truly annoys me about Kill Bill is that there are bozos out there who actually list it as their favourite Asian film.
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post #37 of 98
1/30/06 at 6:05pm
I'm afraid you may be overrating true Asian action flicks. Have you seen "Bruce Lee: The Star of All Stars" or "The Dragon Lives Again"?
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post #38 of 98
1/30/06 at 6:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike
Kill Bill isn't that great. The dialogue is a bit flat and goes on too long, and I have to say that the action pales compared to any true Asian action flick.
Why oh why do people persist in thinking certain qualities... like "great action"... are conferred upon a film by the Cinema Gods based on the mailing address of the production company?

Some Asian films have great action. Asian films, if they are action oriented, tend to feature a refined sense of stylized violence. But saying that every film created in Asia featuring so much as a hand-slap is superior to all the choreography in Kill Bill? Bullshit.

Kill Bill ain't an Asian film, though. I'll agree with you on that point.
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post #39 of 98
1/30/06 at 6:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti
You still haven't proven your thesis that recycling = inferiority. Take Gaslight, for instance. It's a direct remake of a movie that hadn't been made all that long before and it's considered the superior film.
Or how about, to use an oft-cited example, The Maltese Falcon? Wasn't the Howard Hawke/Humphrey Bogart version the third or fourth production of that story? Its script followed the previous versions almost beat-for-beat, but because of its delivery, it validated its existence. Kill Bill, to me, does the same: it takes its cues from what came before and delivers it in its own way.

Or how about Brotherhood of the Wolf, which references/homages countless films and genres, and still manages to find its own voice, despite the fact that much of what's in there can be found in other films.
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post #40 of 98
1/30/06 at 8:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Sphinx
Some Asian films have great action. Asian films, if they are action oriented, tend to feature a refined sense of stylized violence. But saying that every film created in Asia featuring so much as a hand-slap is superior to all the choreography in Kill Bill? Bullshit.

Kill Bill ain't an Asian film, though. I'll agree with you on that point.
Sorry, I'll rephrase that, because I agree with you. The best Asian action films piss all over Kill Bill in that dept. Anyone who cites the House of Blue Leaves fight as great needs to check out Lone Wolf and Cub pronto. Kill Bill's action scenes come across as empty and dull to me because I've seen the 'real thing'. Whether that makes me a snob or not I don't know, but after watching both parts at the cinema I have absolutley NO desire to watch them again because apart from those action scenes, I think they have very little else going for them. The dialogue is limp, and the acting is overrated - Uma Thurman, Michael Madsen, David Carradine?! Talk about block o' wood central.
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post #41 of 98
1/30/06 at 8:09pm
Madsen can take a lot of heat for some of his work but he was fantastic in the 2nd chapter of KILL BILL. If I imagine a former assassin who has become a strip club bouncer and lives alone in the desert, Madsen’s portrayal is about what I’d expect from that character.
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post #42 of 98
1/30/06 at 8:10pm
I've seen Lone Wolf and Cub, and many of the other movies cited in this thread, and I still think the action in KB is damn impressive. I just find it hard to believe that anyone who loves movies could not be tickled by KB.
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post #43 of 98
1/30/06 at 10:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike
Uma Thurman, Michael Madsen, David Carradine?! Talk about block o' wood central.
I'd get that block o' wood drunk and fuck it.
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post #44 of 98
1/30/06 at 11:40pm
I know this isn't really in the spirit of the argument, just a small curiousity; I've seen KB1&2 quite a few times and I've seen Signs quite a few times and I have no idea when KB apes Signs. But then, the source was that IMDB list.
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post #45 of 98
1/31/06 at 3:42am
I'm not sure where the Signs comparison comes in either.

Does KB have things in it that were borrowed from other films? Sure it does, but so do a lot of other films that you mentioned.

Master of the Flying Guillotine, which I loved, borrowed from the One Armed Swordsman series, even using the same actor, tournament martial arts films, flying guilotines were also used in other films by the Shaw Bros (i'm not sure of the dates that these films were released, so that point may be a wash), a blind fighter that kicks ass, revenge for the death of some pupils, scenes showing the training of pupils and showing them a special move or "technique". Dude, this film borrowed from a lot that came before it. It was perhaps original in it's use specific martial arts styled villians. All movies borrow from those that came before. You'd have to go way back to Peking Opera houses to find what influenced some of your favs.

Same thing for Japanese films. Kurosawa remade Shakespeare plays. Does that make him a bad director? A ripoff artist? You probably wouldn't find too many people that would argue that Kurosawa is a hack because he used Shakespeare as a basis for his films. I'm not saying QT is as good as Akira, but he's pretty good in his own right.

I'm a big asian film fan, probably half of my dvd collection is imported, and I can still say I love KB. Sure he borrowed a lot, but he took it and made it his own. The shot for shot stuff I don't see, but tell me where they are and I'll check it out.

They're great films made by someone who loves these films like we do, not by someone who picks them apart and puts them back together just to make a buck, which is what I think you're saying. If he didn't love these films like we did, then he wouldn't know what scenes to "borrow".

Also, I'm a big Seagal fan. An apologist at it's worse, but there is no way that Hard to Kill is superior to Kill Bill. Marked for Death maybe.
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post #46 of 98
1/31/06 at 3:58am
It does borrow from HTK but even I can't say that one is superior to KILL BILL, and believe you me I would if I felt it.

Though I was happy to see the '89 PUNISHER on that list of films, Lucy Liu had to be born from Lady Tanaka.
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post #47 of 98
1/31/06 at 4:02am
Spike is reaching in this thread. KB definitely rips off some great films, but it also surpasses some of the films that inspired QT in the first place.
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post #48 of 98
1/31/06 at 4:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spike Marshall
You pick a film and I'll give you a paragraph on why it is superiror
Out of that (fairly dodgy) list of imdb films? Ok. I SPIT ON YOUR GRAVE.
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post #49 of 98
1/31/06 at 6:00am
I think Spike's aim in creating this thread was not to establish whether or not Kill Bill rips off/homages other movies, but whether it does justice to those movies by not being crap.

Clearly most of the posters here do not think KB is crap (I don't believe it's crap, I just think a lot of the stuff featured in it has been done better in other movies). If KB leads viewers to seek out some of the (good) films homaged in it, then it's pretty cool by me.

By the way Spike, I don't see The Bride Wore Black in that list
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post #50 of 98
1/31/06 at 9:42am
I thought KB was great fun. The only disappointment I had with it was in KB2 with the Pei Mei sequence. Uma hitting a wooden board didn't exactly strike me as being worthy of being taught the five point palm technique. Just look at what Jackie Chan had to go through in Drunken Master, that's what Uma should've had to go through in order to earn the respect of Pei Mei.

Leone did the exact same thing when he made 'Once upon a time in America' it's basically a mix of all Leone's favorite westerns with his personal vision.
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