SI: Bonds used steroids "in virtually every conceivable form"

I feel bad for all the Giants fans that so vehemently (and stupidly) stood behind him for those years.

I'm curious how ESPN handles the story. Right now, they are filimng his "humanizing" reality series. I wonder if journalistic credibility will get in the way of Espn Original Entertainment.

ESPN.com hasn't reported the story yet. They're sticking to their gross mischaracterization of Kirby Puckett.

I feel a law suit coming

Probably right, but there is NO WAY the S.F. Chronicle goes forward without hard facts.

Wow. That is some pretty damning stuff, and I'm one of those people that always assumed the worst about him.. Now, more than ever, I hope he doesn't get to Aaron's record.

There is actually part of the article where the writers talk about all of their sources (much of which is from Grand Jury testimony). As Cassidy said, they crossed every T 10 times over before releasing this thing.

This sounds pretty bulletproof. ESPN just knocked Kirby off the front page. This might be trouble.

Too bad there isn't anything baseball can do about Barry. Only hope the baseball writers get balls and keep him out of the Hall.

*Now that was a fun read. I think the most damning statement is:
People always said roids/HGH never helped you hit a ball. Guess not. Based on this You can make a case for the Commish striking his records. Oh to have a Commish with real power

Unbelievable.

For those new to the sports forums these are old threads that detail this on going process.

http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77901

http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59243

http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72472

http://chud.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52713

I think Burke will have to concede there is evidence now.

I think it's time for MLB to start incorporating Negro League stats into the record books, if for no other reason than so that Josh Gibson's 85 home runs could bury Bonds's record. I don't think anyone else is ever going to get an untainted 73.

It's the media's fault that Barry takes steroids.

How the fuck do you take 20 pills at a time and not throw them right back up? That's talent.

Does this mean more Barry damage control?

And does that mean he'll dress like Paula Abdul again?

Just keep hitting them out Barry. We don't care how you do it. Screw history, there's an N.L. West to be won.

Oh moltisanti, there is only one man who can help barry now...and unfortunately he is busy governing california.

Okay, now as someone who actually knows people who have, what I refer to as, a "shoebox". And the shoeboxes were getting bigger and bigger over the last 12-15 years I've know folks who were "on".

According to THEM, steroids doesn't help hitting a ball. What's needed for that is damn good eye/body coordination, you know, "skillz". It's stupid to take HGH if you're a baseball player. It mostly effects your body composition, but not FUNCTIONALITY.

As for steroids, I truly doubt Bonds took ALL that was available, since there are just too many to list even here. Quite a few, I wouldn't say hundreds, but close to. And many of them would be worthless for him. But most athletes, even pro, aren't the brightest when it comes to steroids anyways. For example, Winstrol or better known as stanozolol (the one Ben Johnson took in the 88 Olympics). You can ween yourself off of it like, several weeks before a drug test and test clean. Ben Johnson and other athletes caught with this substance merely took it either the NIGHT BEFORE or DAY OF a drug test. Seriously stupid.

But, man, you'd require daily injections of that drug. DAILY. For women, not so much since it has (for many) low virilization or side effects. I somehow doubt he'd take that one. But I have to admit, I am curious as to what type of stacks a baseball player would have to take. (stacks refer to the number of drugs someone would take in a cycle. There are "cutting" stacks and cycles, "bulking" stacks and cycles, for example)

Okay, sorry to digress. So since the eye is generally a muscle, maybe, in some really waaaaaay off Frankenstein drug kinda way, HGH would stimulate that muscle to improve. I seriously doubt it. I doubt steroids would, too.

If Bonds worked and worked on his ball hitting technique, became so efficient in that area and then took steroids, became a huge mofo and then was able to like, hit that ball to the moon and do that every time he came up to bat- yeah, kick his ass outta the league.

(The shoebox reference is from a guy I knew from the early 90s who had won every damn bodybuilding contest he entered and was gearing up for state level and then to Nationals. He kept his drugs in a "shoebox". I thought that was funny.)

Spoken like a true resident of New Jersey...

Anya, I mea culpaed already in one of those old threads. Bonds is dead to me now and has been for a while.

Frankly, I don't care overmuch about Barry taking strength enhancers or injury/pain reducers (especially stuff that wasn't even regulated by MLB that was being used by everyone from McGwire-Sosa to Brady Anderson and Bret Boone) because that's been a part of the game forever. What I do care about is that these drugs artificially enhanced Barry's eyesight to such an unfair degree that he became the best judge of balls and strikes the game has ever seen. The part of Barry's game that I personally admired the most, something that a veteran player builds up to through the course of his career, and it's just some stupid drug.

Feh.

How much evidence does there have to be that Bonds cheated in order to revoke his records?

They're never going to revoke the records. He hasn't tested positive and the baseball players' union is one of the toughest around. They won't let them go after the record books.

Baseball fan side of me: Retire now and fade away quietly

Giants fan side of me: Keep hittin' them dingers!

I'm having a hard time even imagining how awkward everything will be when he passes Ruth this season. The indifference might be overwhelming at this point.

If this book is accurate (and I think it probably is) he committed perjury and broke the law, but not the rules of baseball unless he was still on the juice last year. His stats, while tainted, are legitimate until he tests positive.

It sucks, but them's the rules. Personally, I hope he doesn't suit-up this year. Click here for a great article by Buster Olney at ESPN.

The worst part of this is not what it does to Bond's reputation or the twilight of his career.

It is what it has done to every other player who has managed to achieve something in the last 10-15 years. Randy Johnson, Roger Clemens, Derek Jeter, Manny Ramirez, Carlos Delgado, etc are just some of the names fans and writers are haphazardly tossing around in relation to steroids. Basically anyone who achieved anything in baseball in the past decade MUST have been juicing. People have become so paranoid that they even question Roger Clemens?

Willie McCovey had a good point today when he brought up the point that not only were Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa enjoying career years in the late 90s early 00's, but so was most of the league! From his experience as a big leaguer he thinks the culprits were actually juiced/conditioned baseballs. The league was trying to generate interest and excitement in a game that just wasn't exciting many people. He knows for a fact that the league used juiced baseballs off and on during his playing days. The league also uses special balls for the Home-Run derby. Juiced in this case would probably be done via some shift in the manufacturing process.

I would buy this before I would accuse freakin Bret Boone of using just because he had a couple good seasons. Rich Aurillia hit 37 one year. Do we want to haul him before the grand jury as well? Whether Bonds used or didn't use is a much small issue when compared to the witch hunt he has caused.

I'd lay odds he never steps up to the plate again.

I absolutely hate Roger Clemens but I really dont think he was on roids. Yes he did decline a little his last few years in Boston but that was more to do with injury problems than anything else. He still averaged nearly a strikeout per inning his last 4 years and two of these bad years he had he still had an era of mid 3's which isnt too shitty in the American League and also in his last season with the sox tied his strikeout record. Also his years with the Yankees for the most part his era was roughly mid 3's to low 4's so that was roughly about the same as his Boston years. I think his poor years at the end of his Red Sox career had more to do with the fact that the Red Sox just werent very good those years. Yes his last 2 years in Houston have been great but thats because he went to the NL. Most good pitchers from the AL usually have way better numbers once they go NL. Think Pedro last year he lower his era over a run

I read a good idea that the Giants should bench him or release him and nobody touches him. That would be justice.

Whether its justice or not it just wont happen. The guy is too good teams want to win to bad. Some contender would pick him up just to win. Until he tests positive the really cant do anything about it whether that is right or wrong. I mean most of us know he used or did use or is continuing to use but no matter what that book say whether it is 100 percent true 50 percent true or complete bullshit the guy simply has not failed a drug test. My personal views is that i would say a fair majority of it is the truth with a few exagerations added in. Everybody is just gonna have to give into the fact that he is going to break the record.The guy hates the media so much that even if he wasnt going to hang on to break the record he definately will now just to piss people off. If they do decide to wipe his records well they have to do that for everybody in this era who was under suspicion i.e Sammy, Boone, Pudge, McGwire Raffy and that simply is not going to happen. The shame is though the clean guys in years time when people look back at their stats people who have never seen them play are gonna say yeah but that was the steroid era so those numbers are inflated.

What word and where did you read this everything I read yesterday said the Seliq said he would wait to read the book and even then there wasnt a lot he could do. If Bonds gets suspended off a book without ever failing a MLB drug test I am no lawyer but I think that would be grounds for a law suit. The only thing I could see happening to Bonds is if the U.S government went after him for purjury. Seliq's hands are tied until Bonds fails a test. I just dont see how they can do anything until then.

My prediction: suspension with pay after the book comes out, pending investigation.

I don't see a suspension because there's no real grounds for such action. He took substances that, while illegal, were not against MLB rules. Bonds is taking a lot of deserved shots but there is no way you can go after him when it is quite clear that a lot of players over the last 15 years have been doing the same thing. Guys like Bonds and McGwire are going to be the focus of books and other media coverage but odds are they are just 2 members of a large club of juicers. Look how many guys tested positive last season after steroids were already a big issue within the game.

If Bonds doesn't retire about the only thing MLB can do is to not make an event out of him passing Ruth, and possibly Aaron down the road. Because if you start messing with his numbers you're basically gonna have to wipe all the stats of recent memory off the books.

You are definately correct but first he would have to be convicted of a crime and really how could tthe government go after him for using steroids when MLB already has positive tests from other players. They could go after him for purjury I guess but then again they would have to go after Raffy too and it doesnt seem like they are gonna do that. So basically unless he fails a test I dont think they can do jack shit to him. Now if he fails one the season throw the book at him give him the full 50 game suspension which would in essence probably mean his retirement

The difference between bonds and say, McGuire, is that there isn't grand jury testimony that is evidence/proof of guilt. With McGuire and Sosa, it's just assumed. Rightly, in my mind, but assumed regardless. Also, McGuire and Sosa aren't playing anymore. You can't suspend them. (This was speaking to Moltisanti's point about not being able to touch Bonds).

If Bonds does play, he won't survive the full year. Seriously. Some NYC nut will shoot him before he gets a chance at The Babe.

The grand jury stuff has been hanging over his head for a while. I just don't see how baseball is going to suspend him for a crime that he isn't being charged with in a court of law. There's no way for baseball to go after Bonds without essentially erasing every stat that the game has produced during the juiced era.

You don't have to get rid of his stats. As you say, that would be impossible, really. But, in light of this evidence, there is certainly reason to suspend him. I believe MLB can suspend a player for breaking the law.

I'm sure MLB can suspend Bonds if they truly wanted to, but knowing Selig I don't see him doing it out of fear of the snowball effect that would be sure to come. If Bonds doesn't retire he'll be left to twist in the wind until he does call it quits, with no orchestrated fanfare for whatever milestones he reaches.

But can they suspend you if you have never been convicted or even charged of breaking a law. Thats really the question. If he ever gets charged with a crime I can see him being suspended then but until he is I dont see Seliq having the balls as Moltisanti says.

There is baseball precedend with the Black Sox. But as you said-a no balls commish. He should because people will be pissed when he passed Ruth and livid if he passes Aaron.

Thats a good point about the Black Sox they actually won the trial agaisnt them didnt they. Times are a little different now though the back in 1919. With lawsuits and all that shit I would think it would be tougher to get rid of someone.

ZOGM his career had ups and doWnZ he must be on de RoidDZ.

This is precisely the kind of crap I am talking about. Any human being who plays a sport can have ups and downs. The special ones like Clemens, Ryan, Seaver, Aaron, Mays can ride those waves and have multiple hot streaks. Of course you could say that Ryan just hung around for a long long time.

And here is the most reasonable post of this thread.

Make no mistake, just about any top MLB player has been or is on "something". If steroid usage began in the 90s and has been around MLB for that long, it is now an integral part of the "big show". Bond, for being so unliked, is being turned into the sacrificial lamb. I guess the powers that be of baseball feel that once he just "goes away", the whole steroid issue will too. At least from the minds of the average baseball fan; they'll just move onto the next big hitter or superstar pitcher.

Especially if these players are much more likeable than Bonds. Afterall, the "nice" ones wouldn't possibly dare take illegal substances.

As for steroids, they're just another notch of substances that baseball has messed with. What about "greenies" - or even cocaine (an excellent CNS stimulant like ephedrine)?

I'm not debating the fairness or the practicalities of singling out Bonds. I'm simply saying that baseball really has no choice. Letting Bonds play this season and pass either Babe or Aaron is a PR nightmare that eclipses Pete Rose. I know that gambling is "the unforgivable sin" in baseball, but cheating is a much bigger deal in the minds of most Americans. For baseball to do nothing? Unthinkable.

I agree with you thinking as far as cheating which steroids are and its wrong. However baseball alot of times turns a blind eye to cheating. I mean they have a guy in the HOF Gaylor Perry who wrote a book after he retired how he used to cheat by throwing the spitball. Does baseball expell him or kick him out of the HOF cause in my opinion even though steroids are much more serious and dangerous cheating is still cheating. There is actually as much proof or more of Perry's cheating I mean he admitted he used to cheat.

Question: How can Bonds (if he does fail a drug test), really be cheating if every other MLB player is also on gear? I say that it's a pretty fair bet that they all are; which creates the infamous "level" playing field. Thereby, Bonds isn't really cheating, correct?

From the excerpts I've read so far of this book (which I think is pretty bogus at best), Bonds was taking: winnie, tren, test and of course, HGH (or GH).

I think this is pretty standard fare and probably the most likely combo for those taking it in the MLB. Reason being is that I don't believe they know what they're doing or rather are just a bit ignorant on HOW to take steroids in such a way that you can avoid: hair loss, losing gains made while on a cycle (happens quite a bit), spending a LOT of money on the steroids that won't be as effective.

Seein' that in the book winstrol was referred to as, "a powerful steroid"; which is laughable. If the authors had done a bit more research, they'd find out that winnie ain't used a whole lot by the men.

Another thing, it was mentioned that they're basing their belief that Bonds is a big, bad uber steroid user because he gained 40lbs of muscle between 1982 and 2002. Oh, okay. I guess people don't realize that this is possible drug-free. Because it is. Let me just say that I was a man, and I trained consistently hard and with quality for those 20-years. I'd be one pissed off muther if I didn't get that type of gains drug-free. Your first two or three years of training will sport you some damn fine gains just by being a newbie (body loves to grow).

So weight gain sometimes is not an easy indicator of steroid use. Neither is mood swings resulting in the oh-so-scary "roid rage". I just see that this book is using the usual stereotypes garnered from ignorance of steroids. There's a lot of men (and women) walking about this country right now. Most of them are competitive in some sport of their choosing and others are not - but they're on gear of some sort. I guarantee many wouldn't be able to pick these people out as someone who's using - sometimes it's easy to spot (like the WWF guys and gals - eeek) and most of the time, it ain't.

But in the end, I think Bonds is getting the wrong end of the stick. I don't think he should be to blame for this whole thing. Even for taking the damn stuff. More than likely, another player began making unbelievable gains, that caught Bond's attention and well, they talked about it and Bonds gave it a shot (no pun) - that is, if Bonds is indeed using.

The problem is the whole bunch of money behind any of these pro sports. From football to baseball. This corporate pay to play shit is squeezing the fun out of it all. And the athletes are just all so wanting to make that money and are doing what they can to keep that cashflow coming in. And the fans demonize guys like Bonds, but then can't get enough of the records that keep getting shattered. It's a no win/ no lose situation and it'll keep going on until someone says "enough!"

Sad state of affairs in pro sports.

40 pounds of muscle of 10 years? Yeah, that's possible. 15 pounds of muscle in one offseason (after the '98 season)? When you're 35 years old? Sorry, not happening without the juice.

And, smugbug, you may feel that 'roids are a perfectly acceptable part of sports. The vast majority of the public, however, disagrees with you. And baseball can't allow that kind of PR disaster to occur.

Didn't say the shit was perfectly acceptable. If anything, I'd wish the shit would go away. I'm a drug-free former competitive athlete. I chose the drug-free route because of my own personal feelings toward drugs. My only drug of choice is alcohol.

And as for so-called "unbelievable" mass gains at 35 - it is possible. I was able to do a few things myself at the old, crinkly, shriveling age of 35. And I'm a woman.

The vast of majority of the public though, have been wildly misinformed, continuously about steroids. I'm trying to remain in neutral territory and just refuse to become reactionary and demonize any athlete that tests positive on a drug test. While again, I'd love the drugs to just go away - I know that's just not reality and would settle for them to become legal and open up a dialogue that would allow the medical community to find out what exactly CAN these drugs do? Because they don't know exactly. Even now, in the 21st Century. Let's really see what the landscape of that playing field of sports looks like.

In the meantime, that might release the mysteriousness behind this whole crop of drugs we call steroids. Maybe we'd know exactly why we're telling people to not take them by saying, "cuz you're cheating" or "they're dangerous". One, the person who is already decided to take them will respond with a , "well, everyone is doing it, so it isn't cheating"; which in some ways, it's true. The other answer would be, the reason in some cases that the drugs are dangerous is that there's not a lot of knowledge about 'em in the first place.

The other choice would be to make prohormones legal again. Now, I'm not a big fan of prohormones since some of those can have more sides than steroids (sides, meaning "side effects"). But at one time, up until Congress put the ban on 'em 3-4 years ago - they were legal and a available alternative to 'roids. Now, they're not.

Again, I'm not gonna get reactionary about this. Especially by a book that looks like it's got some very poorly researched material and is some sort of vendetta against it's subject. And with this type of reaction against Bonds, what athlete would ever ever want to be open about his/her own use of drugs? We're pushing this subject more and more behind a big heavy door when it should be out in the open, being discussed.

THAT would create a level playing field, not by attacking Bonds, who is just one athlete.

I'm not being reactionary. I could give a shit about what Bonds personally does, honestly. My only argument is that baseball will not allow its most treasured record to fall to Bonds, given the current climate. Doing so would be a PR nightmare.

And you know what? I totally agree with that; although I believe that the REAL PR nightmare is the fact that Bonds ain't the ONLY one using.

But I do agree with you. This is the beginning of the quick end to Bonds' career. Be prepared for his "tell all" autobiography due out in a year or two.

Not to get all Nancy Reagan and shit, but no ones talking about what effect this has on young athletes. I am neither a youth nor an athlete, so I'm, not sure how they are reacting. Is it outrage, disallusionment or is it now when they start believing that this is the olny way to be competative.

Not that anyone does , but if selig is ever to have any credibility about his wanting to clean up the game, here is the perfect opportunity. Regardless of mlb rules, there is an example to be made here.