OCEAN'S 13 to start July 21

How many times have you seen the sequel, majorgates? I hated it the first time due to the "Julia" bit, but have since grown to love it more than the original.

I am psyched. Ellen Barkin is awesome.

Everyone, including the people who MADE the films, like 1 better than 2. They are all very, VERY wrong. 12 is a classic, Julia in-joke and all.

I think it's hard to blame people for expecting something out of 12 that wasn't there, and thusly being disappointed by it (hello, V for Vendetta), but Ocean's 12 shouldn't exist, not the way it was put to film. And yet, it does. For this, I give it love.

Any details? I liked both parts - first one looked dull at first, but turned out to be great. And the second - yep, that gag with Julia was awesome)

Replacing Zeta-Jones and Julia Roberts with Ellen Barkin? I thought they did these movies to make serious Soderbergh dough. That seems... odd? Though Barkin still looks good. Regardless, if David Holmes is back doing the music, I'm definitely back as well. I think the first one is more consistently good, but the second film's highlights trump anything in the first, save for that fountain scene of "Eleven", which seriously makes me tear up every time.

Judging by this scheduling, Soderbergh should be finishing up "The Good German", so I guess, recent NYC shooting aside, "Guerilla" will be a 2007 shoot? Or is he trying to get "Ocean's" out by winter? Or again, perhaps he already finished "Guerilla"... I wouldn't put anything past Soderbergh, as he could have three or four movies being released this year. He's got a Spalding Gray documentary for 2007, and he's still under that HDNet "Bubble" deal- he owes them five more pictures, and I heard one was going to be a low-fi film called "Cleopatra" with Catherine Zeta-Jones.

No wonder Section Eight is closing... where does he find the time?

Barkin looks like fifty pounds of chewed meat. And that's on a good day.
After the reaction the last one got, I don't know if this is such a box office shoe-in anymore.

Agreed, though I wouldn't have guessed the makers liked 1 better.

Actually, it is you who are very, VERY wrong. Ocean's 12 is an atrocious, misguided piece of film-making. Its ending is the equivalent of slapping the audience in the face.

Odds that Bernie Mac will finally have something to do the third time out?

I must like getting slapped in the face because I loved Ocean's 12. Big fan of the first, a bigger fan of the sequel. Really looking forward to more Danny Ocean.

http://www.chud.com/index.php?type=news&id=6271

Couldn't find a worse picture?

I liked Ocean's 12 when I saw it in the theater. It had a unique indie style. I have soured on the movie with repeat viewings. I agree with Overlord. It is a slap in the face to the audience. The twist at the end didn't bug me at first, because I had a good time trying to work out the story myself over the 2 hours. I was entertained. Once I watched it knowing the whole point of the elaborate "robbery attempts" were just to kill time for a few days, the movie was a lot less interesting and fun.

I can rewatch other movies with twist endings because what happens before can often take on a new, deeper meaning once you know the ending. Ocean's 12 is just the opposite.

I don't know if I will make it to the theater for Ocean's 13. It might just be a rental for me.

I delighted in the fact that it was a slap in the face to the fans that loved the first one for its cute ending resolution rather than the dialogue rhythms and the dynamics between actors playing off each other in a sort of tongue in cheek meta-hollywood style.

I agree the plot of 12 wasn't that great, but that doesn't matter. I'd pay to watch this group of performers argue about what kind of pizza to order for 2 hours.

So, you liked it because it was a two hour "fuck you" to anyone who liked the first movie and wanted more of the same, rather than due to any objective qualities it might possess in terms of narrative cohesiveness or quality dialogue.

Good to know.

Personally I liked both films and welcome a third one. Due to the fact that it seemed to be on tv all the time I like the second one more now. What I like about it.......nm, it doesn't matter.

There's a lot to enjoy in Ocean's 12 - mostly Soderbergh's direction, cinematography and some excellent dialogue riffs. The scene with Robbie Coltrane is superb, and Clooney and Pitt's chemistry is second to none.

But I'd stop way short of calling it a classic, and I laugh in the face of the notion that its narrative shortcomings are the result of a deliberate and contrary decision to piss off people who enjoyed the first movie for its neat structure.

Warners wanted a sequel, they dug out an old script that John Woo never used (Honor Among Thieves, I believe) and retooled it.

And it shows.

The first film is effortless. It's nimble, and smart, and tightly paced. The build up and pay off of the heist is almost flawless, and it actually makes sense. The audience is invited in, and the only bit of information withheld is how they plan to get away with it - though even that can be figured out: "We're just going to walk out of there?" "Yeah".

Everything clicks together like clockwork, every cast member has a part to play and a moment to shine. It's a wonderfully polished piece of entertainment - and deliberately so. The idea that Soderbergh would want to use the sequel to punish viewers who enjoyed it as such is nonsense.

While the sequel is clearly aiming for a looser European feel, the script isn't up to the job of marrying the laissez faire plot to the snappy dialogue and characters. Scenes which should be charming vignettes feel directionless and adrift, characters are included because they were in the first movie, but the sequel has nothing for them to do - because the script they cannibalised didn't have room for that many characters. It's the George and Brad show (with a special appearance from Matt Damon), and while that's still fun, it's contrary to the vibe of the first movie.

The Julia-as-Julia conceit strays too far into Hollywood smuggery, the first heist is appalingly staged and explained while the twist relies on information the audience has absolutely no way of knowing - "Oh, by the way, all this other stuff happened but we didn't show it to you. Because then the twist wouldn't work." It's not quite as bad as The Village, but it's in the same territory of audience disdain.

I think Ocean's 12 is the better shot movie, and perhaps the better acted (among those deemed worthy of screen time), but to say it's the superior film is something I'll never agree with.

Although,objectively speaking,I must admit that 11 was the better movie, 12 was much more enjoyable for me.At the best parts it just seemed like the actors were just hanging around shooting the shit and I loved that.

All the twists and the reveals at the end didn't bug me much, as I felt that the 'how' of the heist was beside the point.

Finally,I HAVE to love a movie where Vincent Cassel bypasses a field of lasers by doing acrobatics to French techno.(Off topic...what the hell was that song called?I can't find it anywhere.)

Chewed. Meat.

That comes perilously close to being a new way of saying "You just have to switch your brain off and enjoy it".

I don't mind ensemble pictures where the on-set chemistry seeps onto the screen. What I do mind is when the movie then goes out of its way to exclude the audience from that chemistry. The first movie let the audience in on the thrill of the heist. The chemistry becomes inclusive. The sequel subjects the audience to a fairly cheap piece of misdirection for no apparent reason. It reminds you that you're watching A-list celebrities fannying about on holiday, and forces you to make the best of it.

Which, in all honesty, is much closer in spirit to the original Rat Pack "Ocean's 11" than the remake was.

Yeah, but the original Ocean's 11 was a great concept trapped inside an unholy and pointless mess of a movie. Allowing that concept to blossom without smothering it in ego was what made the remake work. If the franchise (urgh) is going to head further in that direction, it's a major mistake.

Dan, I absolutely agree with all of this, yet I find 12 to be more rewatchable and fun than 11.

The song is called The a La Menthe by Nikkfurie, I believe.

You can download it here. The page is in Russian, so just look for the mp3 link.

Anyway, I love both films - flaws and all - but I think Dan has done the best job so far in describing why it didn't always work.

As for the change in tone from 11 to 12, I'm glad for it. I'm very happy that 12 wasn't a warmed over repeat of 11. The complete change in story, tone, cinematography and the like is what made me really enjoy 12.

It's as if someone dared Soderburgh to mash-up his Ocean's 11 with Full Frontal, and he said, "You're on."

I'd be very interested if the third movie was some sort of middle ground between the focused, all-about-the-heist structure of the first one, and the looser, more-interested-in-characters-talking style of the second. Or maybe they'll totally change things up and make it more like Ronin or the original Italian Job.

I'm excited for this precisly because I have no idea what they're gonna give me next--a unique situation for a series prepping its third entry.

I found Ocean's 12 to be a great film. I saw it once by myself and then i dragged a bunch of friends to go see it. Most of them thought it was okay but liked the first one better. I still enjoyed it as much as the first time i saw it.

Ocean's 11 was a good film, but i think the sequel was so different from what i thought it was going to be, instead of loathing the film for not being more of the same i just went with it. In the end it came off much more cooler than the first. I didn't get the feeling i'd been had because of the twist at the end, because i had as much fun watching the characters run around europe as they probably had comitting the heists. It's one of the few films that had me smiling the whole time while watching.

I also think the music in the film was so well placed. I really like the music they played everytime Brad Pitt stalked Catherine Zeta Jones' character. Really nice touch. Not to mention the whole laser dance sequence which i think most of my friends agreed was probably the best scene out of both films.

I don't loathe the film because it's not a repeat of the first. I just find it hard to really like because it's so sloppy. Some people may look at that sloppiness and say "Oh, it's just fun" but I know that Soderbergh and Clooney can do that style - and do it better than what's on display in O12.

Probably the same reaction that I have, which I find very odd. I'm more of the mind that the sequel would not have worked had it not been for Soderbergh's directing, given that George Nolfi (Timeline) scripted it, the movie just wouldn't have worked.

I'm hoping for the best of both worlds come OCEAN's 13.

If by objective quality, you mean a neat little bow-tie plot, then yeah, fuck you. A LOT of films manage to do at least that much. That's not what made Ocean's 11 fun in ways that other films aren't. Ocean's 12 knew this, amped up all "subjective" qualities, and poked fun at the first film's ending.

They're both dull as dishwater.

How is it that so often people are not allowed to simply like films on these forums. I guess if you feel the need to post then must feel the need to justify but still it seems that often times someone is chastised for just enjoying something without the need to expound film school schlock in order to justify it......but thats my two cents and I can be just as wrong as anybody else. (By the same token whats wrong with a little critique?.....it goes on and on)

http://www.chud.com/index.php?type=news&id=6511

Pacino is in.

Okay, now I give a shit about this movie. Pacino playing off these actors for Soderbergh, script by the "Rounders" duo, I think this could correct the mistakes of "Twelve".

Twelve was awesome.

This should be great too, now. I can't even imagine Pacino on the same screen as Damon, let alone Pitt and Clooney. This jumped high on anticipation.

Well, the news that I submitted earlier today to the CHUD guys about Pacino's casting also alluded to a rumor that George Clooney is also wanting to cast Sacha Baron Cohen (a.k.a. "Ali G").

More details here.

I take my anticipation back, then.

Does anyone else think that the sequel to the remake suffered from the same general problem as the original (namely trying to figure out a way to include everyone?) Which is funny because that's one of the good things about the remake. Not to be total pissant, I do think 12 is beautifully shot and I love the Euro vibe. But that dang Julia Roberts sequence ruined the whole thing for me. When you're that pulled out of a film, its tough to get back into it.

Here's hoping the 'gruff and boisterous' stuff is more Vincent Hanna than SATAN.

Ohhhh by the time I get to Phoenix, HE'LL BE RISIN!

The reason for me that 11 worked better than 12 was pretty clear when I watching the secong flick: the first one was more about Clooney, and Ocean`s 12 was more about Pitt. To me it`s a no contest, esp. in this type of material, I prefer watching Clooney. As good-looking as Pitt is, I don`t think he`s as confortable in these types of films as we think. I think he`s better when he gets dirty; frankly playing the suave guy with the cool lines just sounds fake when he does it. On the other hand, Clooney in a old school caper, with some romance thrown in is as smooth as silk. They underplayed that part in 12, heck Danny Ocean didn`t do the planning, wasn`t much involved, wasn`t cool, wasn`t even caring and ultimately it almost sank the movie. I even questioned if bringing in Pitt in the franchise to begin with was a good idea.

But Barkin and Pacino for the next one, are you kidding me? I`ll be there on opening night.