The Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel Appreciation Thread - Page 6

So I just watched watched the first two episodes on hulu, because I have nothing else to do with my youth, and it's weird. The writing is sometimes really smart and funny, quickly setting up a lot of characters and mythology without ever feeling too exposition-y, and sometimes it's surprisingly cringeworthy (that scene in the computer programming class, ugh. "Deliver" is probably the worst joke of the whole series) but oh my do I love it.

I like I Robot, You Jane more than most folk (welcome, Ms. Calendar!), but the script's idea of computer literacy and cyberculture really does date it.

The Master's "Whaddya think-- 3.5?" may be my favorite line in the pilot. I've always wondered how it plays outside California though.

I remember that line, but it's from somewhere else in the first season.

Anyway, just watched "The Witch," for the first time in probably 7 years, and loved it. Nice twist, nice little darkly moral end to the mother's story. Guess I'll just keep going through the first season on ol' Hulu - this is fun.

*begins to weep*

My list may not be the most original, but it's from my heart man.

To be fair I do recognize that i appear to be biased towards the season finales. What can I say?

I do like Rath's list however. But no "Body"? It's one of only three times in television history that i was brought to tears by something (To be fair I don't watch much TV): The Body, when Tara died, and when Mrs. Lanningham died on the West Wing. That whole episode was absolutely fantastic.

I am the only Buffy fan on the planet who doesn't like "The Body." I don't like Hush that much either. Or the dream one.

In fact, there are very few of the "experimental" Buffys prior to 'Once More' that I think work. The one with Jonathan is classic, though.

Individual tastes I guess, I don't fault you for it. it's just like you said you're the first guy I met who didn't.

For the record, count me in the camp that loathes Restless.

Talking about "Superstar"? I think that's what it's called. I love that episode.

To me, "The Body" is like one of those films that you know, objectively, is good, but you can't get into it for whatever reason. You appreciate it more than you like it, which is how I feel about that episode. I watched it and I was like "That's it?" Granted, the episode has some very, very, very, very fucking good stuff in it -- of all the characters, Anya's reaction is the one I most identify with and, thus, is the one that always gets me. That whole middle section is probably the best part of the episode, with Xander punching the wall and the Tara/Willow kiss (you could write an entire paper on the signifigance of that one moment alone) and that moment.

But the rest of it, I just can't connect with it the way I do other moments/episodes on the show. I even listened to the commentary to try and understand it; I get what it is, what Whedon's trying to do/does, and it's admirable. Yet the last time I watched the fifth season, I was like "pass" when it came to that episode.

I completely understand what you're saying Rath. It's the same thing I tell people about Lord of the Rings. I totally get it, Jackson made great movies. I just don't need to ever come into contact with them again. They do nothing for me.

"The Body" is something special for me. I don't even really think of it as a Buffy episode, and I wouldn't begrudge anyone for not liking it.

But not liking "Hush"? That'll take some 'splaining, sir.

Again, there's wonderful stuff in it (the Dance Macabre sequence is one of the funniest things they ever did), but as a whole, it doesn't work for me. I think one of my problem with a lot of the early experimental stuff is that Whedon got the idea for the concept first, then came up with the story. And Buffy was always best when it was about story and character. For me, the only time he got it right before season seven was "OMWF."

I just realized this, though. You know why four doesn't completely work? I'm a big fan of four, I like the early college stuff, and I really adore the Initiative.

But.

Aside from The capitol C Church (which they did with Caleb but even he was kind of a lone wolf rather than the System), the military was probably the best viliian they could go with to represent the over-arching, oppressive nature of the patriarchy that Buffy rejects. And who's the main villain in the Initiative? A woman and her Frankenstein. Bad form, Whedon. You couldn't have gotten Terry O'Quinn?

I guess i never thought about that before

I thought Walsh was a reasonably interesting character (and I'm probably in the minority on that), but she's definitely a weird choice for the head of The Initiative. They never built enough on any supposed mother-figure role she had with Buffy, and even if they did, it doesn't seem to fit with the idea that you mentioned, the military as a force of oppression, etc.

The rest of your post reminds me, I really like "The Freshman." It was sort of a throwback to the old season one metaphor-heavy episodes, where monster = problems.

Walsh was a bad pony from day one. I don't know why they ever bet on her.

I may be the only one, but I really wish Oz had stuck around for the rest of the show. How that would've affected the balance I don't know, but I missed that character.

The anti-Walsh had to be The Mayor and Mr. Trick. I just love the scenes with the two of them together. That whole "I like Cathy" gag with the underling had me in stitches.

Wow, watched The Body for the first time last night. Brought up a lot of stuff for me that I realise Id successfuly buried from when my old man died back when I was Buffys age. The use of sound, the concentration on the strangest visual cues, the general unreality felt in those first fifteen minutes as Buffy is in the deepest shock felt incredibly real.

That was a little slice of a personal hell I'd all but closed my memory on 12 years after the fact.

Possibly one of the best hours of television Ive ever seen, but I don't know if I could revisit it honestly - it was simply too close to my own experience and too well done to not open up shit Ive put to bed.

They would have never had Willow turn gay.

Didn't the woman who played Walsh didch the show midway through and they had to kill her off? I think her character could have payed off if she stayed on.

Wasn't there a top 10 episode Buffy thread around?

Nice.

According to the commentaries, Lindsay Crouse was disappointed she didn't get to do more. And of course, she didn't ditch the show-- that's still her in the robo-zombie makeup later on.

The actresses they couldn't get back were Robia LaMorte and Amber Benson, who both declined to appear as aspects of the First.

LaMorte did appear as the First in "Amends." She declined coming back for "Restless."

While that season's probably one of my least favorites (mainly due to its lack of an entertaining central villain), I kind of like that it wasn't so on-the-nose with the idea of Buffy rejecting the patriarchy. The fact that it was Walsh, a strong, seemingly admirable (at least on paper*) woman, at the head of the Initiative gives it a little more dramatic tension. After the previous season with the mayor, I think we'd become conditioned to expect the worst of men in authority positions on the show. Walsh seems like a potential ally at first, so it's slightly to our surprise to see just how corrupt she is. To advance, she's played strictly by the men's rules, so she's as much a member of the patriarchy as anyone.

Unfortunately, Crouse is a terrible, terrible actress, and it's hard to like or admire her character from the first time we meet her.

I'm sure someone has illustrated Buffy's encounters with the patriarchy season-by-season; interestingly enough, Walsh and the Initiative may be the most obvious representations of this until we get to the vile, casual misogynism of Warren (possibly the creepiest of all the big bads because of how utterly normal he is - he's not driven by any supernatural need, but by ego), and the twisted religious traditions of Caleb.

Oops, you're right of course. Now I have to re-watch the whole series again, which makes... three times? Apparently, I used to have a lot more spare time.

Just got into the show this year, up to episode 3, 4th season.

I sort of saddened I didn't watch this show the first time around, I sort of amazed by how smart the writing is for a "teen show".

With that said though, I got to say the worst part of the show for me is the snappy comebacks Buffy says to the villans (in paticular the "I may be dead but I'm still pretty" line), after watching this, I'm surprised people give Wedon such flack about the X-Men toad line (its just not his thing, hes amazing at writing character banter, good at writing twists to the regular story, and lousy at snappy combacks).

Yeah, the writers know that, DerekT, and if I remember correctly you're about to come upon an episode where it's lampshaded. Buffy makes a joke, the vampire doesn't get it, and she is miffed as she dusts him.

It's all part of the charm for me, but I can see how the cheesy lines might be annoying to some.

I do like "I flunked the Written," which if my rapidly deteriorating memory serves, comes a beat later in the standoff with the Master.

Ep 1 of Season 6 addresses the quip issue as well.

In response to DaveB's comments on Season 4, that's my 2nd favorite season despite the lack of a more interesting Big Bad. The clunkiness of both the actors playing Initiative soldiers and the characters they were portraying (including Adam and excepting Riley) seemed to fit into a more metatextual theme of that season. The show, fresh off a demonic mayor-turned giant snake, actually manages to go over the top in S.4 with frat boy soldiers and robo-demons.

It's like the entire conceit goes to plaid, with the tongue-in-cheek air of some of the best X-Files eps ("War of the Copraphages" comes to mind). Buffy suspects her college roomie of being a demon because she constantly listens to Cher...and of course she's right. Jonathan makes everyone believe he is a superhero in one episode, and even shows up as the star of the opening credits. The Initiative troops climbing in and out of trapdoors on campus with those ridiculous stun-gun things. Giles as a demon: "Bloody humans."

Plus, one of my favorite eps and one that doesn't get enough love, the one where Willow's casual "wishes" come true and Spike and Buffy fall in love. Xander: "Can I be blind?"

That was set up ahead of time, already in Dopplegangland.

As I mentioned too I'm sure Oz would've become less and less interesting as time went on, I just still love the character.

I've been hoping he'd pop up in Season 8.

Well the missus and I have just finished season 5 of Buffy and Season 2 of Angel. Wow, big big ending for Buffy - I know this was the last season of the show on the WB before it moved to UPN, but for people watching at the time, was it already known the show was moving and continuing or was the thought that this was the end of the series all together - cause it sure has that "end of everything" feel to me, with the "previously on Buffy" start of the episode giving highlights of all the 5 seasons and the story ending with Buffys death.

Angels season finale was a lot of fun and a nice change of pace from the dark Wolfram Hart-Darla-Drusilla stuff that had led up to it. Heading to The Hosts dimension and basically turning the show into epic medievil fantasy was pretty bold I thought - oh and Lorne may just be becoming my favourite side character in the Whedon-verse.

So now we're onto Buffy 6 (which we watched the first episode of last night) and Angel 3 (which we start tonite) and my love for these two brilliant pieces of tv just gets deeper and deeper. My better half and I are already referring to this time as "The Buff-Gel Months" - I feel we'll be looking back on now as some of our best times in front of the telly in times to come.

They knew it was moving, but there was enough unsure-ness leading up to it that they crafted the finale to both be a series and a season finale. I think.

You lucky Dog, getting the 'previouslies'. The Region 1 box sets delete them.

I'm pretty sure the previously for that episode is on the DVD.

Yeah, the only previouslies on our DVDs are

-the beginning of season 2, and

-the beginning of "The Gift"

As much as I liked/loved some of the subsequent episodes that followed in Seasons 6 & 7, I almost wished this had been the series finale. Would have been one of the greatest series finales ever.

Nah here in Oz we get the previouslys for Buffy and Angel every episode. Its good in a way because you know which characters and plot points the upcoming episode will be dealing with but it can be annoying for the very same reason.

Season 4 and 5 of Buffy have really been a one two punch of awesomeness for me, they may be neck as my favourite seasons. Angels finally found its feet as a show and so I get the feeling we're in for a treat with season 3.

edited for spelling because apprently I thought the show was called "Biff" for a second there

Only as an easter egg on the Season 7 set.

Just getting into the end of season 2, and man is this show ever getting the groove of brilliant for me.

Zander and Cordillia is hilarious.

Dom it gets so much better - I recommend if you're able starting Angel season one when you start Buffy season 4 - Im doing an episode each and its fantastic.

Angel biting a woman who was smoking, and then blowing the smoke out himself is the most bad fucking ass thing I have ever seen.

Thanks for the tip, I wasn't sure when I was supposed to start watching Angel in the series of things.

Just watched "Once More With Feeling" last night, the musical ep of Buffy season 6 for the first time ever and it was just about one of the most sublime fifty minutes of tv Ive ever watched.

I'm so going to miss Buffy and Angel when this is all over.

I have had the complete Buffy collection for a couple of years and watched it all the way through twice. I got the Angel collection just after Christmas (got it on Amazon and saved almost $100 Australian that way) and have watched it all the way through once.

I'm working my way through BSG from start to finish at the moment but once I am done with that I'm starting Buffy again and doing the Buffy/Angel alternating episodes from season 4. I loved when they were on TV in Australia and I got to watch them that way, one night Angel another night Buffy and all the crossovers fitted in.

I have a thing for shows with spin offs and crossover arcs but I had a thing for Buffy long before Angel got his own show (had a thing for Angel himself for a long while too).

Have seen a few posts about top 10 episodes and been thinking about mine. Don't think I can narrow it down to 10. Obvious choice for favourite is Once More With Feeling and Becoming (both parts) are high on the list.

Rath, you aren't the only Buffy fan who didn't like The Body. I mean, I think it was a fantastic hour of television, brilliantly acted and written, the sound and presence of the episode were incredible but it didn't feel like Buffy. I love shows like this for the unreality, the demons and monsters that are metaphors for life experiences. This episode wasn't unreality, it was something very real that has happened to a lot of people and didn't fulfil the escape part of my love for Buffy.

Loved the idea of turning all the potentials into Slayers in Chosen and loved the way they bought the show to a close but I wouldn't say that was one of my favourite episodes, just favourite ideas.

I love anything with The Master and anything where Angelus makes an appearance. I really enjoy history and the eps I love to watch over and over are ones with flashbacks of the vamp gang causing havoc.

My room-mate and I actually just finished up the last episode of Angel yesterday. We started two and a half years ago, but due to him working too much and not being a fan of "marathon" television, it too for fucking ever. Well worth the trip. I started out not a fan of Whedon, mostly because the fanboys insisted everything he did was better than sex, chocolate and No Country for Old Men combined, and after getting through season 1 of Buffy, I started to fall madly in love with the show. The season 2 finale will always be my favorite because of the price Buffy has to pay.

I'd need to go back over and figure out what some of my favorites are, but I can tell you that the one moment that still sticks with me is when Anya (still Anyanka) gives Cordelia her wish of "a world without Buffy", all this shit goes down and Giles figures out that there is another world world where things aren't as bleak. He goes to destroy the amulet that Anya has that is keeping the world's separate and Anya asks, 'How do you even know this other world is better?' or something along that line. And Giles, in I think the best delivery of either show, simply says, 'Because it has to be.'

I had to watch that moment over and over again because it was so perfect.

Loved Angel more than Buffy and I will say I dug the hell out of Connor's story. The way they ended it in season 4 was perfect, bittersweet as all hell. Season 5 felt a little off to me, like they shoe-horned in so much while trying to make everything 'monster of the weeky'. I loved the story arcs in the show, but Season 5 with the Black Thorn felt rushed, rushed, rushed. I dug Illyria, but it seemed a lot like Jasmine only quicker.

Wonderful shows. I was sad to see it all end. Now there are no more shows (I know they have the comics) to look forward to.

Okay, so without spoiler details...

After Season 2's finale do we ever see Angel as he was again, or is he dead?

Domingo,

[edit: that was probably too spoilery.] But yes, we see him again.

You do know he got his own TV show, right?

Spoiler!

I haven't formally checked out Angel, my understanding is*was* that it's one big back story series.

No its not, it goes on from when he leaves sunnydale because.......oh right no spoilers. Anyway it's good, some would even say better than Buffy.

I recently finished the entirety of both series, and loved them both. Great stuff. Most of the episodes were spot-on, with a couple of misses here and there. Overall, adoration.

I have a confession to make:

I...absolutely hated Once More With Feeling. Thought it was one of the most excruciating hours of television ever devised. Just could not stand it. I actually kinda felt like the extra 8 minutes were there just to spite the audience.

Dawn dancing was awesome, though, so there's that.

No, but there are a ton of flashbacks to the olden days (particularly during season 3, where a main chunk of the arc starts off in the past).

Unfathomable.

Holy hell, I feel like a dope. I've seen that episode many times and never realized Angel was blowing out smoke. I always thought it was cold (hell, it's raining) and he's simply exhaling. In fact, it always annoyed me because, you know, why would the undead be breathing in the first place?

Wow, it's like a veil has been lifted.