The Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel Appreciation Thread - Page 9

Those musical act scenes mostly disappear by Season Three. Also, you have many more awesome villains on the way.

Okay, Darla 'John Wooing' up the place was awesome and utterly bizarre. Boreanez, who is awesome and funny and charismatic on Angel, is terrible though. Sarah Michelle Gellar and Nicholas Brendan are probably the only ones of the main cast who get the characters right from the start. Giles feels too much like comic relief and Willow just isn't there.

"You know what the worst thing in the world is?"
"Bad hair on top of that outfit?"

"I Robot....You Jane" is my favourite episode so far. Love the design on Moloch and Mecha Moloch and it's the first episode which really feels like it belongs to a bigger world. Gotta lovve the 1990s representation of computers.

"ONLINE, what is this mysterious language you speak of"

"Deliver".

Interesting, Spike. Most retro-fans dismiss "I, Robot". I hope you're seeing the appeal in Willow now.

"Judgment":
-I just love the idea of a demon karaoke bar, and Lorne (although he's not named here, I've read up on his character and know that he serves as an unofficial member of Team Angel for quite some time) is already looking to be a favorite. Watching his scenes is admittedly weird since Andy Hallett died last year (RIP), but Hallett's energy and enthusiasm outweighs any of that.
-Gotta love Julie Benz and her great husky voice.
-Angel singing "Mandy" is one of the funniest Whedonverse moments yet, and I love the outtakes played over the credits.
-The "demon protector" was a nice, typically Whedonian twist.
-I cannot tell you how much of a geeky thrill I got out of watching a jousting match that takes place on a typical LA street.
-I love the fact that, in true LA fashion, nobody seems to notice or care about said jousting match.
-Angel's visit to Faith was a nice surprise, and the conversation that ensued was both funny and touching.

Already this season seems more confident and assured than the last one. Onward ho! (though not tonight).

[QUOTE=Chris Spider;2844085]"Judgment":
-I just love the idea of a demon karaoke bar, and Lorne (although he's not named here, I've read up on his character and know that he serves as an unofficial member of Team Angel for quite some time) is already looking to be a favorite. Watching his scenes is admittedly weird since Andy Hallett died last year (RIP), but Hallett's energy and enthusiasm outweighs any of that.


Wow,I did not know that.How sad. Sometimes it didn't seem like they knew what to do with Lorne but his charm and decency always made the character great.

I love how Buffy Season 1 keeps setting up these little things which were supposedly meant to payoff later on in the Season but just got completely ignored. Like the Preying Mantis eggs and the Invisible Girl being trained by the FBI.

You could argue that Invisible Girl was actually being trained by the Initiative operating via the FBI. /fanwank

Prophecy Girl was indeed great, even if the Aaron Sorkin powerwalk to the main theme seemed a little hokey. The second half of the first season really seemed to come together, quite looking forward to the second season now.

"Are You Now Or Have You Ever Been"
-WOW. This is one of the best episodes of the series yet. Everything about it just clicks from the word "go".
-The '50s atmosphere is captured perfectly: the dream-like feel, the painful reminders of rampant racism, the music, and I particularly love Angel's various outfits and bad-boy haircut.
-It's interesting to compare Angel's character in the '50s and the present because he's certainly grown as a person; I can't imagine the current Angel ever doing something as chilling as him "washing his hands" of the hotel affair.
-The mounting fear and paranoia is doled out in just the right amount, building to the intense hanging of Angel and the hushed, quiet aftermath.
-Giving the Thelusca demon a Foghorn Leghorn voice is one of those odd yet perfect character choices.
-Angel's reunion with Judy is incredibly poignant, as is her long-awaited death.
-The Hyperion Hotel will make for a much cooler office than the old one, methinks.

See, I liked that moment, but that might be because I love the theme song in general (this goes for Angel's theme too). Incidentally, Spike, what did you think of the episode "Angel"?

I don't know if they were specifically meant to pay off or if they were just intended as X-Files-ish "At last it's over...OR IS IT?!?" stock horror endings. But fans have long bemoaned the non-reappearance (um, so to speak) of Clea Duvall as the invisible assassin. The ironic thing is that they could have brought the character back without having to get Duvall to play her, what with the character being invisible and all.

It's funny that you make this complaint, since Buffy eventually became one of the best genre shows ever for setups, payoffs, and long-form storytelling. The Whedon formula for a TV show definitely seems to rely on a first season in which the episodes are almost completely standalone, segueing to a second season that ramps up the metaplot. Then if the show lasts long enough, you get entire seasons that feel like one long story.

One thing I like about this season, as Prankster points out above, is that it's much more involved in the season arc than the first season (hell, it has a season arc to begin with). Each episode has something that affects the larger plot, whether it's Darla continuing to intrude on Angel's dreams or moving into the Hyperion.

Anyway, "First Impressions" and "Untouched" are terrifically entertaining episodes, and if they're not quite as powerful as "Are You Now...", that's only because that's a very tough act to follow. I love Cordelia and Gunn's budding friendship in the former, and Bethany Chaulk proves to be a very interesting character in the latter. I also giggled endlessly at Angel's pink motorcycle helmet, Cordelia mangling noir-speak (it's weird that a noir festival would be on Bravo rather than, say, TCM though), the callback to the Buffy episode "Lovers' Walk", and the satisfaction of thwarting Wolfram and Hart for once (though not for long).

I didn't care for Angel, aside from the bizarro dual pistol wielding Darla, as much as I thought I would. But it's because Boreanez isn't a great actor at this point and it feels like the episode wants to do stuff the budget won't allow (I was expecting flashbacks or something)

"If you're not jacked in...you're not alive."

Season 2 is a lot stronger, feels like they've got a far better grip on the characters. Really like Drusilla and Spike even if both of their fake English accents are kind of grating. I don't mind Spike's as much, because there's enough affectation to make it fun, but Drusilla just sounds like someone sired Eliza Doolittle.

This show is BIG on the kickboxing though, seems like Tae Bo is the ultimate fighting style.

Spike pretty much steals the show from the moment he joins.

Yeah, his first episode basically rewrites the rules of the vampire characters in the Whedonverse. They go from stuffy, ponderous, prophecy-obsessed blowhards to charismatic and fun.

The difference in school systems in the US and UK made the episode where Buffy nearly gets raped by a bunch of fratboys really quite skeevy.

It only occurred to me afterwards that in the US you stay in school until your 18, over here you can leave school at 16 and so I assumed Buffy was about 14 or 15 during the episode.

Spike is an odd one because they’re obviously trying to set him up as a credible threat (videotaping a fight, seeming to be more studious about his fights, holding his own during the assault on the school) whilst also using him as a comic villain (him getting his ass handed to him in Halloween, getting locked up with the wannabes).

Loved the stuff with Ethan Rayne (now I know who voiced Zaeed in Mass Effect 2 I’m much happier) and Rupert’s past, although I’m finding the seesawing of Giles character (father figure and trusted mentor in certain episodes, stuffy and abrasive in others) to be a bit odd.

Spike, one of the highlights of watching the "Buffyverse" from the beginning is watching Boreanaz actually grow as an actor, because everyone admits he's doing some sub-par soap opera shit in Season 1. It's amazing he went from that to Season Five of Angel.

I'm a fan of the stuff with Giles' past, too, but that's mostly because they are stealing from Hellblazer wholesale and Anthony Stewart Head sells it quite well. I think Giles' arc is one of my favorites on the show.

What’s bizarre about Boreanez is that by the time he gets his own series he’s become funny and really charismatic. There’s a charm and humour to him in that show which just isn’t there at all in Buffy. I just don’t get how someone goes from having seemingly no sense of humour to being a great comedic actor in the space of a year.

Also Angel in Buffy is essentially a proto-Edward Cullen which is really bizarre.

Well, you're still on season two, right? Season three is where he really starts to find his groove.

Have Angel and Buffy done it yet? I want to know your opinion on that particular plot point.

Mid-season 2 is where the writers figured out what Boreanaz's strengths were. He's better in season 2 than he is in 3, in my opinion. Of course, without getting into spoilers, a lot of that is dependent on the material he's given in each season.

If Buffy and Angel had done it already, I doubt he'd still see the Twilight similarities...

I think you're forgetting what exactly happened after they did.

This is all very true, but would you say his reversion to Angelus is the turning point? I personally would, since Boreanaz gets to really cut loose and have a blast in that role, and that freedom carries into his later work as Angel in Buffy Season 3 and his own show.

Also, I would disagree with the idea of Angel as an Edward Cullen ancestor. While Angel is indeed the "tall, dark and brooding" variety of vampire, and one who doesn't drink human blood, his redemption quest makes him much more interesting, as does the fact that he eventually gets a sense of humor, and his behavior as Angelus (stalking, watching Buffy sleep, acting generally creepy) is seen as resolutely negative, whereas it's somehow meant to be romantic in Twilight (God, I hate that series). Plus, even on his most emo day, Angel could hand Edward his ass on a platter; that Spike could do so goes without saying.

Some of the actions may be the same, but the context is totally different. Plus, they actually had sex, thus making it automatically non-Twilight.

Or what Chris said.

This reminds me of one of those weird little differences between Buffy and Twilight. Whedon characters are criticized for being a little too pop culture savvy/cute and quirky. Characters from Twilight feel so insular. Like, if they're not professing love to each other or explaining the meager plot ad nauseum, they simply don't exist.

I instantly liked Boreanaz more when he got to play Angelus. He was alot more fun, and it carried over to when Angel was back in charge too. I guess I just knew then what the actor was capable of.

Love this thread.

I’m curious if I’m the only one that sees a huge gulf between the dismissive evaluations of much of Buffy’s first season (not just here but among a lot of fans of the show), and the reaction to it when it first aired. Back then, we tuned in to the first episode on a whim (and recommendation from the local newspaper TV critic), and were immediately hooked, without yet even a hint of how great the show(s) would later become. At the time that Buffy premiered, we were hardly watching any network TV (apart from The Simpsons, Homicide was wrapping up and Crime Story was long gone), and even at its weakest, Buffy felt smarter and funnier than anything I’d seen in many years, with monsters and martial arts as a bonus.

I suspect that it’s a timing thing: not only are today’s new viewers of the series coming to them with the expectation that Whedon has created an epic, but watching Buffy now in the wake of having digested The Sopranos, Deadwood, BSG, The Wire, and the dozen or so genuinely great series that we’ve seen over the past decade shows just how high the bar for TV has been set.

I agree that it’s Angelus that helped bring out Boreanaz’ strengths, which he gradually was able to channel back into the character Angel; from a continuity point of view, I like to think that we’re seeing his experience with Buffy “humanize” him.

Though if we’re going to talk dodgy accents, Boreanaz has to step to the head of the class whenever he goes Irish.

Both shows' writers relish every opportunity they get to let Boreanaz play Angelus, culminating in that run of episodes in Season 4 where he's caged up. He's never funnier or scarier before or after, and it's one of those moments where they truly *get* how a soulless bloodsucking fiend should really act.

^
Man, I love you guys (not like that). And yeah, Boreanaz's Irish accent is hideous, and I have this instinctive "Oh God, please tell me this is post-turning" reaction whenever we go into an Angelus flashback now.

No, I'm with you. I was onboard almost from the beginning. I think the first ep I saw was "Nightmares", and I still can't find it in me to slag Season 1. If I had to name a show where nostalgia doesn't quite get me there anymore it would probably be Xena: Warrior Princess, although I do feel that show blazed the trail for both Buffy and Angel in many important ways.

I don't think it's so much that we're slagging Season 1 so much as pointing out some flaws, mainly the fact that they were still trying to figure out the show's identity, and as a result it feels like quite a different show than the rest of the series.

I dunno, I see a lot of "Season 1 sucks" on this thread. But maybe I'm just defensive. Of Gellar's early curviness perhaps.

Certainly, the later seasons are more self-assured and self-aware, and there are fewer stand-alone episodes. That last bit I don't necessarily consider a good thing-- the second half of S7 is too serialized for its own good (and "Him", the last standalone, is fantastic). But the show never out-and-out disowns S1; the characters and environment change, but in believable, organic ways.

The reason I still like Season 1, flaws and all, is because it allows us to get to know these characters enough so that we care about them for the rest of the ride (this also happens in Angel, Avatar: The Last Airbender and other shows I'm sure I'm forgetting). And it is pivotal in terms of setting up the series' mythology, especially in regards to Angel (although it takes them a bit to figure out his character, as we discussed earlier).

I think, had the attempt to introduce all the overarching mythology from season 2 onwards failed, season 1 would be looked at a lot more fondly. It's pretty good and funny for the most part, but feels trivial compared to the greatness of the following two runs. For some reason the costume choices and production design have also dated for more hideously than the stuff from just a year or so later.

Best thing about S1 is Gellar's babyfat.

Also, I'm kinda with Xander on the whole Buffy-as-a-vampire thing.

Personally, Season 1 is justified by the Oedipus reenactment at the end of The Puppet Show. I don't think I end up laughing that hard at this show again until Hush, and Buffy's failing at stake mime.

I thought the whiteboards were going to finish me off.

Season one gets a pass for the absolutely spot-on hilarious High School talent show performance in the credits of the puppet episode.

Season one has a ton of corn, but its often really funny with great dialogue.

Buffy onstage is uniformly funny. "MEN!....With your SALES!"

Dammit, Kate, stop trying to ruin my good episodes! You can definitely add me to the hate wagon; what a self-righteous bitch. Otherwise, "Dear Boy" is a fine episode, especially in the conversations between Angel and Darla in both the past and the present, although Boreanaz's hideous Irish accent rears its ugly head in the flashbacks. His equally hideous mangling of Wang Chung, however, was hilarious.

What'd she do?

Edited to add that I thought you were talking about Princess Kate and hadn't seen her in this thread...

^
Ha! No, I was talking about the character. Tell me, is Elisabeth Rohm always this annoying or was she just miscast here? *looks at episode guide* Yeah... I'm skipping this next one ("The Shroud of Ramon"). Maybe I'll go back to it later or something.

It's almost worth it for Spin the Bottle in S4, where there's a nice poke at Angel's accent.