The Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel Appreciation Thread - Page 2

The Season 3 finale will kick your ass. Season 4 fumbles a bit, due to actor (and creator) availability, but has some amazing moments. Near the end of S4, you may want to review the counterpart eps of Buffy S7 for continuity.

I am as big a Buffy and Angel nut as anyone, but the moment the fans lost me was when I read some post that defended Spike's attempted rape with the pseudo-fucked-up reasoning that Buffy had, for some reason, "emotionally raped" Spike earlier in the episode. Which, y'know, made it okay.

Oh, and the Dawn/Spike slash fic.

Spike 'shippers scare the crap out of me. There's no rationalization they won't make.

My girlfriend, who's caught the odd episode of Buffy here and there, has started working her way through both Angel and Buffy.

And in re-watching them with her, I've decided that Riley Finn is the most underappreciated (main) character in the Whedonverse.

On the second go-round, Riley has a lot of my favorite moments in the 4th and 5th seasons. Partly, this is because I actually like seeing the occasional hero who really is as "good" as he seems. Partly, this is because Marc Blucas is a better actor than I remember him being.

Partly, this is because I'm insane.

Riley gets a bad rep because he comes between Angel and Spike and I don't think fans really appreciated what they were trying to do with his character. He started off pretty weak, but I really enjoyed him in the second half of season four and season five.

Yea, he only comes into his own once the Initiative arc is in full swing.

The episode where he and Angel throw down cemented my surprised respect.

Riley was good for what he was, but his departure always bugged the crap out of me. The guy was getting his arm chewed on by vmapires, an obvious drug metaphor, and yet everyone except Buffy is all "hey, if you hadn't driven him to it he wouldn't be doing it". I get what they were shooting for, but Xander et al's willingness to dismiss Riley's transgressions in order to bitch at Buffy rang so hollow to me.

That's an interesting read on the symbolism, but I don't take away "drug use" from Riley's time in the vamp den. Instead, I read it as a more open-ended metaphor. Buffy takes Riley for granted, and Riley, needing more than that, turns elsewhere. That can be read as drugs, sure, but also as casual, dangerous sex.

And to have Buffy's friends yell at her for metaphorical transgressions wouldn't make any sense. No one in the world of the show sees vampires as symbolic of anything. They're just vampires.

Which is my problem. Xander being Xander would just go "what an asshole, Buffy, you're better off without a guy who consorts with your worst enemy for kicks". Instead he gives her a ponderous speech about mistreating those close to her.

I disagree. By the fifth season, Xander had become the only character willing to tell Buffy the honest-to-god-truth. As the series progressed, Buffy became increasingly self-involved, knowing that she was better than everyone else. It was Xander's role, as the heart, to reign Buffy and her monstrous ego in. In fact, whereas the other character's de-evolved, Xander actually showed maturation. This was characterized by Xander's speech to Buffy and, in my opinion, quite fitting.

Except Xander being this fountain of maturity was totally out-of-the-blue. Name me one other instance of him being that kinda guy in the series up to that point. There isn't one. And despite Buffy having a monstrous ego-and she does-that whole thing was still a faaar more black and white issue than Xander's spiel makes it sound. We're not just talking Riley cheating on her here. He's getting bitten by the bloodsucking monsters she kills for a living just to feel a high. What was wrong with him picking up some hookers?

If they still wanted to make that point without it sounding lazy and self-righteous, they had a perfect delivery guy there in Spike. He was still a colossal bastard at that stage of the game, and with a little bit of tweaking he would've been the perfect guy to take her down a few notches. She goes to wail on him for taking her to the vampire brothel, and he angrily points out that she should be pissed with herself, she drove Riley to it, she and Spike aren't so much different, blah blah blah. Same effect, sans the annoying out-of-character Buffy-bashing of her closest consorts.

No way, Spike was head over heels for Buffy at that point. There's no way he would have taken her down a few notches. Rather, he would have told Buffy exactly what she wanted to hear: "Yeah, he's a right bastard, that one. As far as I'm concerned, you've always been out of his league..." Xander has always been the human and humanizing element (again, the "heart") of the Scooby Gang, so it had to be him. And while I agree with your analysis of Riley's behavior to an extent, it was still a function of Buffy's increasing propensity to push everyone beneath her away. This was something Whedon and crew made a point of showing Buffy struggling against in Season 5, even as it grew dramatically over the course of the series. That moment, thus, became a crossroads for Buffy: Help Riley and thereby help herself or continue walling herself off from her loved ones.

As for Xander, Season 5 made a point of showing his maturation process. With Giles being phased out, Xander began stepping into his shoes. I recall, at the time, discussion of whether Xander was to become a watcher. The transition really began in the episode (sorry, I forget the episode name) where the demon inadvertently splits him into two halves: the wishy-washy Xander and the self-confident Xander. By the end of the episode, he had moved away from the prior and towards the later, more adult characterization. So, I disagree that his speech was out of the blue.

Spike was head-over-heels for her at that point, but if she had busted into his crypt to give him yet another whuppin' for showing her what was going on there's no doubt he would've lashed out. And seeing as he couldn't hit her at the time he would've gone for the next best thing-trying to hurt her emotionally. He was in "love" with her, sure, but he was also a soulless demon, and presumably soulless demons would respond to rejection by trying to be as hurtful as possible.

But, I guess we have to agree to disagree. My main bone of contention was with Xander simply dismissing the Riley/vampire interplay as something easily forgiven, no matter how much perceived emotional growth he'd achieved. I guess the point is, if they wanted to execute the desired storyline, they were much better ways of going about it than involving a vampire brothel. As I said, why not be adult about it and have the guy cheating on her proper? At least that way Xander would have some empathy after the Cordy mess in season three.

I thought that the depiction of "minor" vampires as drug addicts who function at the margins of society without killing people was an interesting development that added some shades of grey to Buffy's mission statement. It would have been more at home on Angel though.

One of the best things about Angel was how it opened up the possibility of demons/vampires being "good" as well as "evil," or even just being "meh." I guess Buffy may have started down that road with the "prostitute" vamps and even Harmony (and the basset-hound looking demon they introduced playing cards with Spike for kittens?).

Looking forward to the finale of Angel 3.0 this weekend. Having trouble liking Amy Acker's character at this point. Doesn't she stay through season 5?

In a word yes. Her character becomes a conduit for some of the most emotional moments in the show.

Big Buffy and Angel, that just stumbled in. I like Angel more than Buffy. That is all.

Alright, so I'll just keep my Buffy/Angel freak flag aflutterin'. The idea of good demons or "meh" demons was first explored, although not to the extent that you've cited, in Season Two of Buffy when Whistler showed up to help Buffy defeat Angelus (and who, we see in flashbacks, dragged Angel out of the gutters and onto his path to redemption)

By Seasons 4 and, especially, 5, I frankly defy you to dislike Fred. She becomes so much more than the annoying girl with a southern drawl. Also, she's not so bad on the eyes... I'm just saying is all.

Reading this discussion made me finally crack open the Buffy complete series box I had on my shelf.

I always forget how low-rent the first season looked, and I always forget how bad an actor David Boreanaz was in the first season. For him to go from the sub-soap opera acting that year to some of the best moments in the series a season later--not to mention that last, fantastic year of Angel--is an achievement that doesn't get pointed out enough. Good for him.

I stayed home sick last night and watched "Once More, With Feeling" again. Almost started a post on this in Music. Am I just a whedon homer or are the songs he created for that episode really impressive? I'm no composer so maybe what he's done isn't that great, but it seems to me you'd have to be pretty talented to write and score that many songs, that are so catchy on their own but also layer together and match each other so well. I guess I'm comparing it to something like The Nightmare Before Christmas which had songs that (to my ear) were clearly inferior to say, The Lion King or even South ParkBLU. I found myself thinking: jeez, Whedon could make money (if he needed any more) writing for musicals. Is that just blind Allyson Hannigan love?

What the hell?? In Bizarro World, maybe! Elfman's tunes for Nightmare stomp all over Elton John's crappy, adult contemporary treacle from The Lion King.

Danny Elfman can write music with one hand, or ear, or whatever tied behind his back. But I remember thinking that the lyrics were forced and pathetic in every single song in that movie.

Hardly anyone in musicals today writes properly singable lyrics. My personal irritant is songs that are so specific to the action that they can't be performed out of the context of the show-- that's what Anya is talking about when she asks whether another character's song was "a breakout hit or more of a book number." Rest In Peace and Under Your Spell are probably the best songs in that regard-- they don't have to be interpreted literally.

But yeah. A terrific accomplishment for Whedon. When I saw him speak at a Serenity panel he still considered it a career best.

P.S. If you want a real treat re-watching Once More With Feeling on DVD, check out the language option. Some maniac actually composed French lyrics for all the songs.

P.P.S. And yeah, that's some blind Alyson Hannigan love you got going there. She doesn't sing more than three lines, does she?

Well, I'm now two seasons into Buffy. It definitely has a lighter tone than Angel.

I'm enjoying it greatly thus far, and it fills in a lot of blanks I had while watching Angel. Such as, "who the hell are these characters that keep popping up"? Season Two is a definite step up from the uneven, low-budget-appearing Season One. When did the two shows split apart, anyway?

Difficult..to..focus..on..Brendan's..post....

Avatar.....absorbing....all attention.....

March 10th. Tenth Anniversary.

Raise your hand if that makes you feel old.

Now that is hard to believe. Where has the time gone?

Buffy started as a WB midseason show on March 10th, 1997. That's why there are only 12 episodes in the season.

2007 subtracted from 1997 is 10. That's 10 years.

I guess Star Wars' 30th Anniversary should have been celebrated last year, too?

Someone better tell the Star Wars folks they're going to be a year late with their 30th Anniversary goings-on.

10 seasons and 10 years can, on occasion, be two different things. Now I'll stop being an ass.

Anyway, in honor of the 10th and (hopefully) a THUD retrospective, I've been rewatching the series from the beginning, the first time in at least two years since I've watched 'Buffy' with any real regularity.

I'm at the "Buffy and Angel Do It" two-parter right now, and I really got to say, I forgot how much the second season annoys the piss out of me. Yeah, I realize it's the most mythological, the most heightened, the most romantic, but I much prefer the "created family" dynamic that came in later seasons than the earlier "Buffy and Angel, just like Romeo and Juliet, do do do" ones.

Yeah, that's the end of Season 2. The show really doesn't pick up for me until "Passion," which is where Angel kills Ms. Calendar and Giles is awesome. I know it's cliche to say at this point, but as a Whedon guy, I'm really disappointed that Anthony Stewart Head never got nominated for an Emmy for this show -- in seven seasons, the man never once phoned it in.

Season 1 is pretty bad, overall, David Boreanaz in particular. I have tremendous respect for him for actually working at it and growing as an actor over the course of the eight years he worked with Whedon -- going from sub-soap par acting to "Let's go to work" deserves all kinds of props.

Okay, for all the lameocity that is "Surprise" (which isn't a shock, considering Marti Noxon wrote the thing), I'd forgotten how awesome "Innocence" is. Some truly iconic series moments in the climax to that, from the gang's march into battle to Buffy with the bazooka ("That was then. This is now.") to Giles' last speech to Buffy. Great episode.

I'm actually surprised by the Season 2 hate, if not for Bewitched, Bothered, and Bewildered alone, the episode that exacerbated Xander's uncanny ability to attract any woman whose ever set foot in Sunnydale.

I am somewhat avoiding this thread, due to the spoilers, but I just wrapped up Season Two tonight. That was a great season...if its considered mediocre, I can't wait to see what's coming up next. The Xander-love spell episode, the two part season finale, this was great television.

"Oh forget it, let's fight."
"This was never about you. And you fall for it....every time!".

Oh, once Angel goes bad, the run of episodes is pretty stellar in Season Two -- except for one of the WORST episodes they've done, the Michael Scofield fish one. I'm just saying, it takes so long -- more than half the season -- to get to that point that a lot of it feels like build-up mixed with mush. And I'm not a fan of mush, frankly.

Season Three is one of the best seasons of the show, and probably the best of the "high school" years. My personal favorite, though, is Season Five -- that's one of those rare seasons of TV where there's not a single bad episode.

And I will defend Season Seven to the grave. I had a lot of the same problems with the finale that most people did, but man, what a fucking ride.

I can't get behind a season where the "Big Bad" was Clare Kramer, sorry, it's just. not. happening. I spent the whole season trying to ignore her performance to no avail.

Though, it is hard to hate on the season that brought us Olaf.

Season three SMOKES seaosn five. The Faith arc is some of the best stuff they did, and no Big Bad ever came close to being as interesting and entertaining as the Mayor. Plus, bumbling Wesley.

One of the few things I remember vividly was The Mayors last lines...

"Well gosh..."

Also, season 3 has "The Zeppo" which, in my opinion, is one of the most underrated episodes of the entire series. How could you not love an episode where every character except Xander is on the peripheral? Just a fun, fun episode.

And, for the record, seasons 5 and 6 get unjustly maligned... just thought I'd throw in my two cents.

He got tricked into taking baby Connor away from Angel, then had his throat cut and spent a few months ostracised from the group whilst shagging Lilah. I did like the Wes changes, but I wish they'd left SOME vestiges of the old character in there. He went from bookish and sensitive to monosyllabic brooder and left a big ol' gaping hole in the heart of the gang.

He didn't really lighten up at all. I think he may have smiled once or twice when he and Fred finally hooked up, but for him to go from an endearing Xander/Giles hybrid to stoic crusader seemed like a backward step to me. Then again, I also hated when they essentially rejigged Cordelia into a warrior woman in season three, so what do I know.