The Buffy the Vampire Slayer/Angel Appreciation Thread - Page 17

I'm a guy who generally thinks Nietzsche was too devout, but thematic sympathy isn't enough to save the Jasmine arc. For one, her brand of evil goodness* is incredibly bland compared to the other charismatic fiends that populate the Buffyverse. And I've been mostly praising the parts of the show where magic or whatnot allow the actors to play different versions of the characters, but the brainwashing is just turgid stuff. It offers no insight into any of the characters because it's forcing them all to play the same boring note.

As for the behind the scenes stuff, it might make it more understandable, but it doesn't make the episodes any better to watch.

*yep, that's really the term I'm going with

I just remember being shocked that anything could make Gina Torres boring.

Back to Faith for a sec: I love how her prison break is staged so that it's clear, although nobody explicitly says so, that up to that moment the only thing keeping her behind bars was Faith herself.

No mention of one my favourite parts of the season opener.

"Sit. DOWN."

I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of Wes threatening to take the piss bucket away from the hostage girl he keeps in his closet.

Second truly incredible thing you've mentioned in your writeups that I've somehow managed to forget, I'm beginning to fear mindwipe/braindisease (first one was mr. apocalyptic hamburger).

I gotta say that I think some people's positive reception to the Janice stuff comes from the weird scheduling at the time the season aired, which made the bizarre soap opera pregnancy oh dear god what am I watching part of the season seem to last forever. Janice was seen as a bit of a welcome pace. Never much liked it though. In fact, I'm pretty sure I haven't rewatched the whole series because it means, at some point, I'd have to get to through all that again and my subconscious is good at keeping me away from danger.

Yeah great scene but once you think about it im not sure how great of a threat it is, I mean they are in Wes's place.

EDIT: Wait I can't remember, were they on the boat or in his apartment when he said that line?

I like to imagine that Wes just stole himself a boat the night the closet girl finally cracked.

My memory of this season is impacted by the bizarre scheduling as well. Buffy did the same thing that year; the breaks between new episodes would go for so long that it was easy to miss a new ep when it did air.

Question: Am I alone in thinking that Angel didn't do enough high-concept standalones like Buffy? I can see how maybe they wouldn't work with the darker tone, but then I see "Smile Time" and I wish they had done more silly digressions.

"Spin The Bottle" is great and all, but I can't help wishing that at some point we had gotten a full on Lorne showcase, a la "The Zeppo".

The Season 2 finale was everything you just described. The standalones that work, work insanely well.

They're not really standalones if they're part of a 4 episode arc.

I just find it interesting that if you asked me, I'd say that Buffy was more serialized and Angel more episodic as a whole. But if you asked me what my favorite episodes were, I could rattle off 10 Buffy titles from the top of my head, but maybe only two Angel ones. Even the good ones tend to run together more (in my head, anyway).

I suppose they were gunshy when it came to standalones eps after the not-entirely-succesfulness of the first season. Season 5 rpisodicness (and Smile Time by extension) only really happened at the network's request.

I guess Harm's Way could count as a Zeppo/Storyteller? Not nearly as good though.

Given that I don't even remember what happened in "Harm's Way", you're probably right.

That's the one where Harmony is trying to get rid of a dead body so she won't get fired, right? My favorite bit is when she's brushing her fangs.

That is also the one where Harmony keeps knocking people out and throwing them in a closet.

Buffy is only more serialized than Angel only if you think a season arc = serial television. Angel was much more serialized than Buffy, if you look at the whole span of each respective show.

Buffy was a lot of one shot issues with a bigger plot skeleton each season resolved, which was actually never really "the" point. Planetary would be its analogue.

Angel was comic book arcs. A few number of issues with a specific plot/conflict/goal that resolves leaving a new status quo, sometimes markedly different from what came before (oh hi mr. Beast), sometimes only different in certain specific ways (post Illyria s5), and with detours as they pleased the writers (oh hi Jasmine, Pylea). X-Men would probably be the analogue.

Right, but regardless of the relation between the individual episodes and season-long arc, Buffy frequently dabbled in "concept" episodes. You could talk about your favorite episodes in terms of "the silent one", "the musical", "the death episode", "the home video one", "the one where the nerd took over the show", "Spike's flashbacks", etc.

Angel didn't play around with structure in the same way, so if you were going to compare episodes you'd always (outside of "Smile Time") define them by describing the plot.

Aren't we agreeing?

Yes, but that doesn't me I won't CUT YOU.

That only means I'd eventually come back looking like this:



And I'd, like, be ok with that.

You say that now, but then when I send Mattioli (Mattioli!) to kill you for real, it'll be all wah-wah, boo-hoo.

This is impressively nerdy. I doff my top hat to you, sir.

I pulled Angel: Season 5 off the DVD shelf wanting to watch one of the really good episodes, and I was struck by the number of them:  Lineage, Destiny, Damage, You're Welcome, Smile Time, A Hole in the World, Shells, Not Fade Away...

 

Season 5 was really good.

I somehow missed this, but it's true.  I will kill you for real, Francis Wolcott.  But first I will see you driven before me and hear the lamentation of your women.
 

 

I love Buffy and Firefly as much as anyone, but I think Season 5 of Angel might be the best thing Whedon has ever done. Putting them in charge of Wolfram and Hart was a stroke of genius, and it led to a season with a huge number of great episodes, like you mentioned, but also easily the strongest season-long arc, and a fitting close to the series. All told, it's a pretty amazing accomplishment, especially coming off the heels of the mess that season 4 was.

 

This is also the season of great character deaths. You're Welcome was a fantastic goodbye to Cordelia, Wes gets to go out a hero, and Fred...well, I can't praise the Illyria arc enough. The idea that you kill of the most innocent and beloved character in the group (which, frankly, if you knew anything about Whedon, you pretty much knew that was coming), but then have that character's body possessed so that she serves as a constant reminder of what you lost...amazing. I just thought that was genius.

Well I just finished the last season of Buffy yesterday. I'd been going through the series over the last six months through Netlifx. Mostly inspired by this thread. Overall I'd rank seasons 2-3 for the highest point of the series. Things started to become a bit silly once she went to college. It also took me a really long time to like Dawn or Andrew, Jonathan should have been the evil nerd that survived. I don't think I ever bought Spike as a love interest, was way too attached to him as a big bad.

 

Big Bad ranking

Spike/Angelus > The Mayor/Faith/Mr. Trick > The Master > Adam > The First > Glory > The Trio/Dark Willow

 

Suppose I should watch Angel at some point. Tried out the first couple episodes and wasn't really impressed. But it seems like it really picks up in the later seasons.

I'm shocked you would have Adam ranked so high in the Big Bad showdown.  To me, he was probably the weakest of the Big Bads.  Then again, I rank Glory as third best (behind only Angelus and the Mayor).

Oh whoops that was ranked highest to lowest. Adam is near the bottom for being so boring.

I've never gotten the love for the Master. I mean, I think he's ok, but we don't really spend much time with him and he's really not much of a character at all. He's a presence, but not really a character.

 

You should definitely watch Angel. I waited forever to watch it after finishing Buffy, but it's well worth it and I regretted putting it off so long. I'm leaning more and more towards Angel Season 5 as the best thing Whedon has ever done.

 

Ha.  No, I got it.  It's just my humble opinion that he deserves to be squarely at the bottom.  A great season finale(s) does not a good Big Bad make.
 

 

Hey folks.  So I'm watching my way through Angel Season 5 on Instant and discovered that Episode 10 Soul Purpose is only available on Disc.  Any clue as to why?  And am I missing something huge and season changing if I just skip it and keep working my way through the season?  Thanks!

It's roughly analogous to Buffy's "Normal Again" (or STNG's "Tapestry"), with Angel hallucinating himself as a mail-room schlub while Spike is the hero. Do the on-demand versions include the 'previouslies'? I think the only important continuity issue is that Lindsey returns, all tatted up as shown in the picture posted earlier on this page.

Edited by Hammerhead - 4/23/11 at 1:44am

Woah, how fast are you?   They do include the previouslys so I guess I'm golden.  It's a bit annoying to have one ep missing but I guess I can give Hero Spike a pass in favor of letting my spawn hold on to Pee Wee's Big Adventure for yet another week. Thanks!

Another thing about the Netflix Angel season 5 is one episode is actually in HD! It's "Why We Fight." I have no idea why that one is the only one.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.  Why just one episode?

Netflix decided to fuck with Angel just for the hell of it. You get bored when you're an omnipotent being such as Netflix. 

I'm resurrecting this thread from the dead because it seems like a more appropriate place to be discussing later seasons, as opposed to the "rewatching buffy" thread, where it could very easily spoil stuff for folks. Also, this is a great thread, and it would be a shame to see it get lost in the ether :P

 

In the other thread, Rain Dog is advocating Season 7 as the best season, and Schwartz says it's between 3, 4 and 5. This kind of surprises me, since I rewatched the whole series last year, and came to the conclusion that Season 2 is definitively the best season for me. Why?

 

- It's got the best cast. There's no Anya or the Mayor, but those are really the only 2 stand out Buffy characters it's missing. In addition to our principle cast, we've got Cordelia, Oz, Angel/Angelus, Spike, Drusilla and Principal Snyder. It's an absolutely awesome cast of characters.

 

- It's worth mentioning again: Season 2 has Drusilla, and Drusilla is AMAZING. Joss Whedon loves to write crazy people, but it never again worked as well as it did here. She's crazy, but she's scary crazy. There's a real unhinged menace to her. Juliet Landau really does a fantastic job. Also, she has this exchange:

 

Dru: I'm naming all the stars.
Spike: You can't see the stars, love, that's the ceiling. Also, it's day.
Dru: I can see them. But I've named them all the same name, and there's terrible confusion

 

- It's really consistent. Sure, "Inca Mummy Girl" and "Reptile Boy" are below-average, and "Go Fish" is a terrible penultimate episode, but most of the season is a string of solid gold. "When She Was Bad" is one of the best season openers. "School Hard" is our awesome introduction to Spike/Drusilla. "Halloween" and "The Dark Age" introduce us to Badass Giles, and essentially everything from "Surprise" through the end is greatness.

 

- The emotional stakes are never higher in the rest of the series (except for perhaps the end of Season 6). To have the big bad be someone that our heroine has such a deep emotional connection to makes everything hit harder. "Surprise/Innocence", "Passion" and "Becoming" are all top 10 episodes for this very reason, they hit like a truck.

 

 

Agreed, Season 2 is my top season as well for all the reasons you've listed.  Plus just the sheer genius allegory for "as soon as you fuck someone they treat you like shit, until you finally get them out of your head THEN they want you back".

 

Plus (paraphrased - it's been a while):

"You can't kill me"

hefty boot to the balls

"not yet"

 

Season 2 is EASILY the best season for my money.  You start off with INCREDIBLE villains in Spike and Dru, and then you somehow manage to top those two with Angelus.  I'll admit, Angelus isn't the most interesting flashy villain, but it's through his connection to Buffy and his metaphor as a jerk ex that really sells him.  Whedon was smart enough to realize that the audience cares a lot about Buffy and Angel, so naturally Angelus was going to be one of the more heart breaking villains.  Plus, he's introduced by feeding on an innocent woman who was smoking, and then he blows her smoke out himself.  SO AWESOME.

 

My personal favorite episode of all the heavy hitters in season 2 is personally Passion.  Angelus's incredible speech about Passion is always incredibly moving to me, even out of context.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fRTMhlPjRo

 

Plus, and I'll avoid spoilers for the sake of knowing that there's a couple noobies maybe floating around, this episode is where Whedon for the first time truly shows you that he's not fucking around.  He's not just willing to give Angelus fangs, but he's also willing to use them in a pretty devestating way that forever changed the dynamic of the show. 

I think my "problem" with S2 is that it's duds are duddier than the middling episodes of 3 or 4, and the overall arc takes until Angel goes bad to really kick off, then still has some fitful pacing as they work in some MOTW stuff like "Go Fish" where it doesn't belong.  But the good parts are really, really good.

 

By comparison, 3 hums along with hardly a hitch from start to finish, striking the best balance of any season between the overall arc and standalone episodes.  Spike and Dru leave big shoes to fill, but with Faith and the Mayor in the mix along with Mr. Trick, you don't miss them overly much.  "Homecoming", "The Zeppo", "The Prom".

 

By contrast to that, 4 has a weak overall but lives on its standalones.  It has a ton of strong ones, including what are probably my 2 favorite episodes of the series in "Hush" and "Restless".  It has many faults that I could enumerate (starting with the fact that every new character it introduces is fairly boring), but overall still manages to stand out as both the funniest and scariest season in my mind.

 

5 is pretty much nothing but the seasonal arc, which pivots and builds to the grandest finale of them all.  And it has "The Body", which is just a stunning piece of work.  

 

I guess with a gun to my head I'd go 3<5<4<2<7<6<1, but the top 4 are all breathing down each others throats.

 

I can get on board with 3 or 5 maybe being the best season, 4 is inexplicable to me though.

 

3 is super, super consistent. There aren't really any truly bad episodes. One the flip side though, I don't think 3 has the highs of 2, 5, or 6. "Lovers Walk", "The Prom", "Graduation Day", "Band Candy", "Helpless", etc are all really good episodes, but I'm not sure I'd call any of them truly great. Certainly not on the level of "Passion", "Becoming", "Hush", "The Gift", "The Body" or "OMWF". It's really, really good, but I find that I revisit season 3 episodes a lot less than I do those from other seasons. Also, how good is Harry Groener as the mayor? Did you know that he has less lines in the season than Joyce or Wesley? Less lines than either Spike or Drusilla had in Season 2? He makes the most of his screen time though, he's so, so great.

 

5 has the best season-long arc (by far), and my 2 favorite episodes of the series ("The Body" and "The Gift").

 

4 has..."Hush"? I mean, I love "Hush", it's a perfect episode of TV as far as I'm concerned, but outside of that I don't find a lot to recommend it over the other seasons. Riley is an incredibly boring character. He never feels like anything more than a stopgap, and he's just not interesting at all. The season-long arc is the weakest of any season (excepting Season 1, which doesn't really count). The contrast between old school/magic and technology/military is an interesting idea, but it's never really explored. Adam could be an interesting villain in theory, but we spend far too little time with him to be invested in him as a Big Bad. The Initiative/Adam storyline is just underdeveloped and a bit incoherent, so the whole season feels kind of disjointed. Also, Season 4 has "Beer Bad" and "Where the Wild Things Are", two of my all-time least-favorite episodes. Outside of "Hush", I've just never gotten the love for 4.

"Restless" dude, "Restless".  Also, the Initiative arc may be weak overall, but it's got a pretty great finale.  And it gives us slacker Giles, and Anya at her most hilariously obtuse along with allowing Spike to interact with the cast to a greater extent while remaining evil, which is is his funnest self. 

 

4 has such a concentration of the little moments I think of when I think about the entire series outside of the major mythology pivots.  The whiteboards and projector in "Hush".  The discussion of American history in "Pangs".  Xander and Harmony's slapfight.  Faith's return and brawl in Buffy's house.  "Actual size" illustration.  Demon Giles chasing prof. Walsh.  The way "Beer Bad" wraps up just like an after school special, except no one has learned anything.  Spike's "puppies and Christmas" speech.  Spike whining about the Scoobies not remembering that he hates them all.  Ethan Rayne monologuing before Giles is really gone.  "I'm a friend of Xaaaanderrrreerrr's..."  Spike starting a rally the troops speech that ends up talking himself out of helping.

I LOVE Hush, and I like the ideas in 4, conceptually.  I like the military coming in and broadening the Buffy universe.  I always saw Buffy very much a Spiderman inspired character, and evolving the military stuff in was a great idea.  Adam is as boring a bad guy as they ever had, only interesting because of literally what he is.  I also remembering liking the finale.  Whedon said fuck it, lets wrap it up early and have the last episode be a fucked up dream.  I always admired going off the standard path.

I admire the guts of doing a season finale like "Restless", but it never really worked for me. I just don't love it like a lot of people do. I will say that Spike is probably at his best in Season 4. "A bear! You made a bear! Undo it! Undo it!" is one of my favorite lines in Buffydom.

"Cesar never said, I came I conquered, I felt really bad about it."

 

I like Pangs because it reminded me of many a family get together when people start auguring politics. Of course no one agrees, no minds are changed, and there is a lot of yelling.

The season finale was ingenious, and the fact that these characters' issues could be portrayed in dream language showed off how thoroughly fleshed out the characters were after four seasons of TV.

Adam sucked as a villain, but I do appreciate what they were going for with the whole "my friends are my source of strength" thing. The final fight against Adam foreshadows a lot of the doldrums the show would suffer from two seasons later, with Buffy left adrift as every character on the show picked a separate corner to wander off and navel gaze.

Oh god season 6. I get what Whedon was trying to do, repect and appreciate it even - yet it's a fucking slog. I love these characters so watching them suddenly end up in Whedons answer to a Mike Leigh film for an entire season just really drained me. Thank god I was watching it concurrently with Angel Season 3, it's all that got me and the ex through ("right if we watch two more Buffys we can reward ourselves with some Angel") Still worth it for episodes like Once More With Feeling and Normal Again, but faaaaaark, Joss really wanted to see how far he could push these beloved characters.

 

The season finale is fucking heart-breaking too.

I'll advocate for Season 3 as my favorite - the Mayor is my favorite of the big bads, it's got Oz and Faith, and it's probably got the fewest duds of any season. I like 2 a lot, but I think it suffers from a lot of the same problems of the first season, especially in the first half of the season, and I'd probably put it after 3/5/4 for that reason.

 

Six is a flat out mess with a few stand-out episodes, and the problems with One have been pretty well documented.

 

I think the problem with the last season of Buffy, as well as with Season 4 of Angel, is that Whedon and his writers were trying to balance three series at once and they simply lost focus. Prep for Firefly may have also hurt Season 6, for that matter. The strength of Angel Season 5 - which I still think is the single best season of any of the shows Whedon ever did - shows that they still could produce something extraordinary when they were able to focus on it. I can't help but think that if Whedon had simply waited a year or two to start Firefly that might have helped the other two shows a lot.

"Normal Again" might be my least favorite episode of the series.