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EMPIRE strikes back

post #1 of 117
Thread Starter 
After hearing all the tracks from it mentioned in the "500 Best movie music pieces" thread, I popped the Empire Strikes Back soundtrack into my car stereo for a few days' worth of commutes. Even though it's my favorite Williams' score, I hadn't listened to it in a while, and I was surprised at how strongly it affected me. I was flashing back strongly to the memory of seeing the film for the first time, the moments of shock and awe and wonder. And since I hadn't watched the film in a longer time than I'd listened to the score, I decided to watch it today.

And I went old-school -- the last VHS release of the unaltered version. That's the one I wanted to see, no spruced-up wampa, no bigger Cloud City, I wanted what I got back in 1980.

And the prequels are dead to me now.

Empire is such a complete film. Never was Lucas' mysticism and mythological bent stronger. Never were the effects more competent. Never was the music more stirring or appropriate. Never did the actors more completely inhabit their characters. It's not just good Star Wars, it's good cinema.

The one moment this all dawned on me seems silly in retrospect, but it hit me so hard, I had to rewind and watch it a couple of time. The Falcon is fleeing Cloudy City and Lando attempts to activate the hyperdrive, and of course, nothing happens. And Peter Mayhew in full make-up just does an amazing take from Carrie Fischer to Billy Dee Williams. It's such a perfect, in-character reaction, and it's followed by Chewbacca just raging and growling and storming out of the cockpit, not uttering a single word I could understand but so easily and effortlessly conveying character and emotion. Show me that moment in the prequels. Show me the character that we've grown to care about who can command our attention and affection without saying a word. You can't. It's not there. What was probably a throwaway bit of business on the set taking all of two or three minutes trumps nine hours of state-of-the-art.

And the story works so much better without the prequel baggage. Ben is a tragic, fallen mentor instead of Anakin's unwilling tutor. Yoda is mysteriously wise instead of the shortest ass-kicker ever. The Emperor is ominous and not cackling about unlimited power. Everything just feels more epic, more majestic, more powerful without thinking twice about midichlorians and clones. It all makes me wish Lucas had never slapped that "Episode V" on the opening crawl -- then the specter of Episodes I though III wouldn't have sat there like an open wound. It would have been finished.

I'm not going to call the prequels abominations or cry that Lucas raped my childhood. Watching Empire again, they just ... don't seem to matter anymore. They're apocrypha that I choose to leave out of my bible. They're not of the same galaxy far far away.

I'm gonna cling to IV though VI and embrace what the saga was, what I remember it as, rather than get all bitter and angry about what it became.
post #2 of 117
It's so hard to embrace the prequels when you have the cinematic fantasy/sci-fi equivalent of the Mona Lisa laying around. They just don't measure up.

The whole prequel era, which basically started in the early 90's and ended in 2005, feels like a bad dream in retrospect. All I can remember during that time is a feeling of impossible hype, puncuated by moments of nostalgia, then we got the cinematic equivalent of a knee to the nuts in 1999, 2002 and somewhat in 2005. And all we got were the prequels. Decent sci-fi flicks, but terrible Star Wars movies.

That's all I have to say about the prequels.

Empire is the best Star Wars movie because it's when everything came together. Gone was Lucas' clunky cinematic technique that kept A New Hope stuck in the 70s (definitely the worst directed of the three), and we got masterful direction from Kershner. He treated the characters like flesh and blood, gave them life and let them live in their own little world. Combined with Lucas's well suited skills as a concept man and exec. producer, Kasdan's incredible script, William's amazing score, Frank Oz's sweet puppetry, and awesome visual FX from ILM, and you have Empire.

A big reason the movie works are the performances of the mains. Hammil, Ford and Fischer all share the majority of their screen time with people in suits or rubber puppets. And that's what makes Empire Lucas' crowning achievement. It brought the movie to life because everything was real.
post #3 of 117
I brought this up in another thread, but the duel between Luke and Vader, besided being punctauted with the greatest reveal of all time, was perfect. It was a battle that progresses from simple swordplay, to the force being used as an attack, to a fierce kick-ass brawl.

The last fight on the catwalk was not two guys trying to hit each others' sabre, or flinging their saber behind their backs, over their shoulders, or circling it in front of their bodies; it was one person trying to kill, and the other trying to protect.

That short catwalk fight is my favorite SW fight, if not my favorite overall. I only wish I could wipe the SW movies from my mind so I could watch them again for the first time, as an adult. I wonder if I would have the same feelings about the trilogy if I could see them fresh.
post #4 of 117
And watching Empire reminds me how real a non-human character can be...
Yoda will never look as good as he did here. It was a huge gamble on their parts to make the audience invest into this "rubber glove"... But between the beautiful sculpture & puppeteering, Yoda comes to life. His silly, wise, and even frightening at times ("You will be... you... will be")... and always real. No amount of CGI (Gollum & Kong are in their own category) can replace my favorite Jedi Master.
post #5 of 117
I don't have anything to add that hasn't been already stated. EMPIRE is the best in the entire series, hands down.

Something inside me stirs just having read the previous comments on this topic. It's a good feeling, and it makes me wanna go watch the film or even lock myself away and listen to the score. I'm glad I decided to check out this thread. Great stuff, gang.
post #6 of 117
I couldn't have said anything here better myself. EMPIRE '80 is one of the most perfect, sublime cinematic experiences I've ever had.
post #7 of 117
Seconding everybody on here. I was the perfect age-- 10 1/2 -- in 1980, and I didn't need any 10-year-olds onscreen to help me identify, thank you very much. The first film had gotten me interested in the nuts & bolts of filmmaking, but I still hadn't seen very many of the movies that inspired it. No home video then, remember.

One of Empire's greatest strengths is that it plays things straight. The cast never winks, even when delivering admittedly awful lines like "Laserbrain". The comic relief is more subtle and character-based (Chewie charging back to take another crack at the hyperdrive is an excellent example) than in any of the other films, and the gadgets and gizmos never take center stage.

Funny thing. I was talking OT to the kids at work, and none of them remembered how dark the ending of Empire is-- they'd unconsciously melded it into the opening of Jedi. The rebels get their butts kicked from beginning to end of Empire, and they get away not because of some explosive triumph but because the villain's heart just isn't in it anymore.
post #8 of 117
What a great thread.

Every once in a while a movie gets everything right. Even more rare, a movie gets everything PERFECT. 'The Empire Strikes Back' is PERFECT. I was 10 when it came out, and I loved it even more than the original 'Star Wars'. I had no problem with the dark aspects of it (indeed, it was what I loved most about it).

May I also add that it was the best acted of the six Star Wars movies...case in point, look at Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill. And Frank Oz as Yoda is totally believable. Darth Vader was never more menacing.

Awesome movie through and through.
post #9 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth
May I also add that it was the best acted of the six Star Wars movies...case in point, look at Harrison Ford and Mark Hamill.
Ford is so on his game in this. When Threepio says "Might I inquire why we don't go after him," the way he delivers the "Sure, why not?" is just pitch perfect. It's an even better Han Solo than he was in Star Wars, and while Indy and his later dramatic roles get a lot of the attention, Han in Empire may be Ford's finest hour.

And Hamill gets plenty of crap about the first film, but the absolutely shattered performance he gives after the Vader reveal is just rock solid and moving.
post #10 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
And Hamill gets plenty of crap about the first film, but the absolutely shattered performance he gives after the Vader reveal is just rock solid and moving.
His scenes with Yoda are pretty good, too-- in the backpack scene ("Is the Dark Side stronger?") you can hear how Luke is maturing just from the tone of his voice.

I think Vader was a bigger badass in SW though. Nothing tops him holding that guy by the throat.
post #11 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead
I think Vader was a bigger badass in SW though. Nothing tops him holding that guy by the throat.
Oh? Nothing tops laser beams stopped with open palm. Man, Han Solo looked like such a bitch. "Shit, I shot him with my blaster, and he just palmed it. My ass is so carbonited."
post #12 of 117
My Dad was in the theater watching Return of the Jedi when my Mom started giving birth to me so I was too young to catch the original trilogy when it was new. One thing I find interesting is that everyone talks about how great the reveal is in Empire, but by the time I was old enough to appreciate the trilogy "Luke, I am your father" had become such a cliche that there was no possible way for it to be a surprise. Damn pop culture spoilers.
post #13 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hot Black
Oh? Nothing tops laser beams stopped with open palm. Man, Han Solo looked like such a bitch. "Shit, I shot him with my blaster, and he just palmed it. My ass is so carbonited."
Agreed. EMPIRE is Vader's movie. How about the following exchanges:

"Apology accepted, Captain Needa."

Or the classic:

VADER: "Calculate every known trajectory. I want them found."

CAPTAIN PIETT: "Don't worry, my Lord. We'll find them."

VADER (turns to leave): "Don't fail me again --

(stops and points a gloved finger at Piett)

-- "Admiral".


But the best part is something I never even noticed until the second time I saw EMPIRE in the theater. After Solo kisses Leia there's a jump cut to a huge asteroid slamming into a Star Destroyer's control tower. We then go to Vader talking to two holograms of Imperial Captains. As Vader listens to the one on the right, the one on the left throws his arms up in defense, fizzles and disintergrates -- and Vader never even flinches!

A classic Sith moment.
post #14 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kreeper
But the best part is something I never even noticed until the second time I saw EMPIRE in the theater. After Solo kisses Leia there's a jump cut to a huge asteroid slamming into a Star Destroyer's control tower. We then go to Vader talking to two holograms of Imperial Captains. As Vader listens to the one on the right, the one on the left throws his arms up in defense, fizzles and disintergrates -- and Vader never even flinches!
And that moment was lost for years as people watched the movie in full screen on VHS. I always missed that little bit of business going on off the side of the screen. When widescreen made inroads into home video, I was thrilled to get that bit back again.

Although Empire is certainly one of my favorite films, I'd have to disagree that it's what Dickson calls a "complete" film. The problem with Empire as a stand-alone entity is that it has no existence all its own. Without the first film, it has no meaning, and because it ends on a cliffhanger with unresolved plot threads, it really doesn't go anywhere. To call a film "complete", it seems that it should work as its own entity. As a chapter in a saga, it's brilliant work, but a complete film it's not.

And I find Colt45's contention that Star Wars is the worst directed of the three ludicrous. Jedi was twelve kinds of fucked up on almost every conceivable level. I still find Star Wars a near-perfect piece of entertainment. Divorce it from your experience with the series as a whole, forget that there's a saga, and that first movie is an incredible experience; and I think it stands on its own much better than Empire.
post #15 of 117
Quote:
Jedi was twelve kinds of fucked up on almost every conceivable level.
You're talking about the directing, right? Never really noticed anything particularly BAD in that regard, most my problems with it stem from the writing. I think. Don't watch it very much.

Oh, and It's nice to see a Star Wars thread without all the SE/Prequel bitching. Let's see how long that lasts.
post #16 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soilent Green
Oh, and It's nice to see a Star Wars thread without all the SE/Prequel bitching. Let's see how long that lasts.
Well, now that you mention it...
post #17 of 117
It's tough for me to choose between A NEW HOPE and EMPIRE, but I agree with Nigel that the former film can stand on its own just fine, and is the more "complete" experience, so if I was forced to choose, I'd pick A NEW HOPE as my desert island Star Wars film. Very few films fill me with inspiration, joyous escapism, and creative drive as much as the very first Star Wars film.

As for JEDI, it's filled with a mostly lifeless, droning direction. It's as if the majority of the cast took one too many hypnotics before filming began.
post #18 of 117
This is a nice thread.

I'm not one who has completely abandoned Star Wars just because I was crushed by the prequels. In some way, pretending the prequels never happened makes revisiting the original three, particularly Empire, a more blissful experience than ever. Just recently, after watching Revenge Of The Sith and realizing it was absolute torture, in many ways worse than the other two prequels, I decided, fuck completism, I had to banish them from my DVD collection and my life. I held onto my Clone Wars DVDs, a far more enjoyable prequel experience. That's all the Star Wars universe I need.
post #19 of 117
Empire has long been my favorite. It's a damn near perfect film in it's original unaltered form. It has the best direction, script, acting, SFX, of the entire series IMO. Plus, without a doubt, the best light saber duel we're ever gonna see.

Not only is it my favorite STAR WARS ep., but it's also one of my favorite films ever, of any genre.
post #20 of 117
I think what I love most about Empire is that when you're an adult you do catch a couple of things that maybe didn't really make a dent in your mind as a child. In particular I love the scene where Han and Leia are in the cockpit of the Falcon inside the "astroid".
[a tremor knocks Leia into Solo's arms]
Princess Leia: Let go.
Han Solo: Shh.
Princess Leia: Let go, please.
Han Solo: Don't get excited.
Princess Leia: Captain, being held by you isn't quite enough to get me excited.
Han Solo: Sorry sweetheart. I haven't got time for anything else.

Seriously, I never got that last line till I was past my teenage years. Now that is some good sexual tension writing. Ford was on in this movie and really seemed to take to the ocassional playfulness in the script.
post #21 of 117
I love Empire simply because it gives the characters in New Hope more depth and dimension, the move to split the main three heroes was a brave one which from the start puts the viewer on a back foot; Then from the opening moments to the final reel, the film never gives anyone a break... Finally we see the empire showing its teeth, Vaders relentless searching for the Millennium Falcon to the point of obsession and to the exclusion of all around him.

Han and Leia's development is superb, the writing is sharp and of course there is THAT twist, which has been robbed of its power to a degree by the prequels.

As far as best Saber battles go, excluding the pyrotechnical, kung fu acrobatics of the prequels I would have to be honest and say that Jedi's final Vader Luke showdown is in a class of its own... As much down to direction and build up, as it is to Williams' masterful score which kicks in big time when Vader taunts Luke prompting (almost) a shift to the dark side...

"Sisssster, a twin sisssster... Obi wan's failure is complete... if you won't turn to the dark side... then perhaps she will!"

"NEVERRRRRRR"

Cue the score all chants rising up with the tracking shot following Luke finally letting loose!

For me, Empire is the best of the OT but that moment in Jedi still has the power to make the hair on the back of my neck stand up....
post #22 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel St. Buggering

And I find Colt45's contention that Star Wars is the worst directed of the three ludicrous.
ANH is a fine film, but it's clunky and is the only Star Wars movie that's trapped in the period it was made in. Some of this wasn't Lucas' fault obviously. But Jedi is a slicker and more assured film, even thought the characters are stock and one note, but the camera work is better, the pacing is better, the visual FX construction is better.

Actually it's a compliment to Lucas, since he practically ghost directed Jedi anyway.

I think it's easy to defend ANN because it was the first Star Wars, but it hasn't aged very well.
post #23 of 117
See, I think it's that raggedness that gives Star Wars its unique kinetic energy. Like with old James Whale films, the editing doesn't always make sense logically but works emotionally-- the mismatches and jumpcuts invigorate the viewer on a visceral level, and that's due more to the relative inexperience and fearlessness of the filmmakers than anything else.

Empire has the dream-team confidence of an old-school director and an even older-school sci-fi writer (anyone know where I can get ahold of the Leigh Brackett draft?), not to mention the best cinematography of the three. It had to help that the pressure was off-- I still love Hammill's quote from the original SW TV documentary: "George could shoot the next one on Redondo Beach if he wanted to..."

To be sure, it's dated in its own way-- SW may have those funky hairstyles, but Empire climaxes on a goddamn disco floor. No matter how you slice it, red/blue lighting schemes and dry ice are toootally '80s. Still, it works a lot better for me than the murky throne room set from Jedi.

I was disappointed in Jedi the minute I saw the first publicity stills in Newsweek. Another Death Star? Some D&D-lookin' armored trolls? Some D&D-lookin' hooded wizard? Carrie! Put some clothes on! (I was 13. I changed my mind about that last one.) The "sister" thing, though-- don't get me started. Hammill again: "George, you just thought that up on the plane coming over, right?"

I thought "NEVERRR" was terribly cheesy, but redeemed by Williams' music cue with the choral voices and all. Pretty darn epic. Too bad Lawrence Kasdan didn't have anything good to rewrite that time around.
post #24 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt45
Jedi is a slicker and more assured film, even thought the characters are stock and one note, but the camera work is better, the pacing is better, the visual FX construction is better.
Too slick for me, with uninspired lighting (compare Vader's closeups to similar shots in Empire -- he's just a black blob most of the time) and some truly awful bluescreen work. The effects animation is overdone too. Granted, the visual-effects guys were seriously overburdened (Ken Ralston's choreography of the space battle does remain unmatched), but as ILM headed into the mid-'80s their work took on an assembly-line quality.

Dunno about the pacing-- Jedi takes three times as long to get started as the other films, thanks to the Han problem, which ultimately has nothing to do with the story. Wouldn't it have been better if Vader realized that Luke would go running off to Jabba's palace? Met him at the door, or took advantage of his absence from the Rebel front?
post #25 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead
See, I think it's that raggedness that gives Star Wars its unique kinetic energy. Like with old James Whale films, the editing doesn't always make sense logically but works emotionally-- the mismatches and jumpcuts invigorate the viewer on a visceral level, and that's due more to the relative inexperience and fearlessness of the filmmakers than anything else.
That is one of the prime examples of using the limitations as an aesthetic. The old, worn down aged quality gave the universe a lived-in feel, which reinforced the themes and characters and made it seem real. I will give it some points for that. Lucas was smart.

It's funny, because even the editing was ghetto. The cross cutting between the death star attack the rebels awaiting doom on the Yavin moon (rhymes!) wasn't there in the rough cut. It's mentioned on the dvd making of doc, but those shots of the rebels watching the battle barely has any dialogue because it's literally stolen shots from a different sequence somewhere else in the film that was cut out. It's a brilliant last minute addition and makes it more suspenseful.

Quote:
Empire has the dream-team confidence of an old-school director and an even older-school sci-fi writer (anyone know where I can get ahold of the Leigh Brackett draft?), not to mention the best cinematography of the three. It had to help that the pressure was off-- I still love Hammill's quote from the original SW TV documentary: "George could shoot the next one on Redondo Beach if he wanted to..."
Empire was a labor of love, like a garage band trying to make something cool. One of the reasons David Fincher and alot of other ILMers left after Jedi was because that garage band spirit was gone. But I'd argue the pressure was even greater on Empire. Because there was more at stake. Lucas was going to use the profits to fund the ranch and other companies. The movie went way overbudget and things got out of control.

Quote:
Empire climaxes on a goddamn disco floor.
WTF?
post #26 of 117
post #27 of 117
In 1987, the only "Star Wars" movie I'd seen was the original. "Return Of The Jedi" was just out on home video (took four years in the UK), and all the kids at school were raving about it. I wanted to see it, but I wanted to watch "Empire" before I saw it. That night, I begged my Mum to drop by the video shop on the way home to get it. (On fucking Betamax, believe it or not!). When I watched it, (despite only being 9) I did pick up on the hidden messages, I understood what the sequence in the cave was all about, and was filled with awe at Bespin and Cloud City.
At the age of 9, I noticed that it was more focused on character development, and even the downbeat ending didn't bother me too much because I'd vaguely heard about the way "Jedi" started.
In 1994 when I was 16, the original Star Wars movies were re-released on VHS (before the special editions, before the prequels, before DVD,before all that). The last time I'd seen them before that, I was very young. Yet I had some cash burning a hole in my pocket, so almost on a whim, I bought the trilogy on VHS. I watched them all. But "Empire" was the film I kept coming back too. It's just one of those films I can watch over and over again.
Every friday when I finished college, I'd come home, make myself some food, sit down, and munch away whilst watching it, with a nice sugary cup of tea.
That weekend I went to see some schoolfriends and took the Star Wars videos with me. I insisted we watch "Empire" first. (we then watched "Jedi", and then we waited till the next day to watch the original "Star Wars".)
They became obsessed with the movies too, and went out and got copies for themselves. I started buying comic books, books (I read Timothy Zahn's trilogy soon after, and read Kevin J.Anderson's trilogy whilst on holiday).
"The Empire Strikes Back" was my favourite movie for years (it's now second, behind "E.T, The Extra Terrestrial".)
When the special editions came out in 1997, I was 19 and another friend of mine and I went and saw all three. I wasn't really bothered by the changes, and I'm still not (having said that, I'm a bit pissed off that they super-imposed Hayden Christianson into the end of "Jedi" on the DVD).
When the time came to go see the "SE" of "Empire", it was almost a religious experience. It was the first time I'd seen this momentous movie at the cinema. It was always a film I'd never forgotten.
Hell, the only reason I enjoyed "Attack Of The Clones" was because it paid tribute to "Empire" in a lot of ways.
"The Empire Strikes Back" is a very important film to me. There's so much happening in it, and it is brave, and bold, and a total and utter fucking masterpiece. I think this even surpasses "The Godfather Part II" as the greatest sequel of all time, and is in my opinion, the greatest science fiction movie EVER made.
At the age of 28, the impact of this film has never left me.

You know what? Fuck it, I might watch it tonight.
post #28 of 117
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead
Empire has the dream-team confidence of an old-school director and an even older-school sci-fi writer (anyone know where I can get ahold of the Leigh Brackett draft?)
I thought it had been pretty much established that not much (if anything) of the Leigh Brackett draft made it into the final script, and that Lucas kept her name on the film as a tribute to her considering she died before it was released?
post #29 of 117
"Look, there's no question that Leigh Brackett was one of the great screenwriters of all time. But it was an odd job for her, and there's nothing of that draft left in "Empire."

"George had hired Leigh the way anyone would--because, oh my God, she's Leigh Brackett, and because he wanted a Hawksian, goading humor between Han Solo and Princess Leia. But Leigh couldn't serve George the way he wanted to be served. Out of all our respect for her, she was always going to get a credit for the movie."

Lawrence Kasdan
post #30 of 117
Sad, if true. It doesn't explain why nobody ever wrote Yoda's dialogue correctly again. If the Brackett draft was totally different, I'd really like to read it.
post #31 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colt45
ANH is a fine film, but it's clunky and is the only Star Wars movie that's trapped in the period it was made in.
I don't understand why a 70's aesthetic is a bad thing. Some of the most brilliant films of our age scream 70's in their look. It doesn't detract from them. Showing signs of its era seems like an odd thing to hold against it.
post #32 of 117
Compare the acting in ANH vs JEDI. Mark Hamill and Palpatine aside, it's ludicrous. The visual effects, sure they're good, but a lot of the movie is lost because Fisher looks permanently stoned and Ford is reduced to a sidekick.

And the pacing sucks. I find it very hard not to hit the fast forward button a lot whenever I watch it. That for me is why it's half a very good movie, and half an average one. Sure, it has some amazing stuff, but it's held down by some very lumbering scenes, and needed a better structured/paced script and editor.
post #33 of 117
Thread Starter 
I love the Jabba opening, and from the minute the Rebel fleet jumps into hyperspace the film is absolutely on rails. But yeah, that middle section drags a lot, except for the Luke/Vader scene.

The Luke/Leia scene is a black hole in the center of the film, and something I always pointed to when people complained about the acting in the prequels.
post #34 of 117
This is indeed a wonderful thread.

The apocrypha comparison made in post #1 reflects my feelings on the matter quite succinctly.

And the ESB soundtrack is absolutely the one I end up listening to the most.
post #35 of 117
I'm glad to see fans calming down and realizing that the PT is less than and should probably be ignored. And I say that not because I'm bitter or whatever, but because I think the OT is great (and specifically ESB), and the PT does nothing but sully those memories and films.
post #36 of 117
LoL, the prequels are like the retarted family member no one likes to talk about.

I give Jedi so much slack because it's the only one I saw in the theater, it's the one of the first movies I EVER remember seeing (behind E.T.). So me and Jedi are fucking tight. Yes, the Jabba sequence can grate the nerves, but it's adventurous toward the end of it and pays off if you stick with it. The Luke/Leia scene is okay, not great but not terrible, saved by William's score. Everything after the hyperspace jump by the fleet is the saga's finest hour IMO.
post #37 of 117
The first SW film I saw in the theater was Jedi. Of course as a 7 year old kid, I loved it. Little did I know what I was missing. Wanted more than anything to see Empire when it came out but the parents wouldn't allow it. I must've been 4 years old at the time but I remember being denied ESB like it was yesterday.

In fact, Jedi was the first SW movie I had ever seen. Never caught ANH on TV or anything. (Back then, VHS wasn't an option.) As a result, the "Luke, I am your father" scene was completely spoiled. And Luke, not Han, was the character I liked the most. Finally caught Eps 4 & 5 at some point on VHS but the films obviously didn't have the same impact as it did for those who saw them in order. Its a completely backwards way of viewing the trilogy. And I think that the whole situation (but especially the ESB denial part) had a profund impact on me.

Anyways, yup... ESB the best of the entire series, ANH comes in second. Jedi a distant 3rd, and um, there are other SW movies?
post #38 of 117
The one film that has always defined Star Wars for me is A NEW HOPE. It was the first film, sure, but there are few films with such tight storytelling, editing, and rock solid pacing.

A NEW HOPE will never be dated. The story's too good, the characters too memorable, the world Lucas created too fantastical...

EDITED TO SAY: Oh, JEDI is the worst SW flick. I'll take any of the prequels over it without a thought. The Luke & Leia scene helps me to cry to sleep at night.
post #39 of 117
Most of the reasons why I enjoy EMPIRE the most have already been expressed. About all I can add is that it has the advantage of Treat Williams playing 2 different characters, in STAR WARS or JEDI he doesn't even play 1 part!
post #40 of 117
One thing that surprises me about TESB is how well the effects hold up. Models and all, they did a whole lot more for me than than the straight CGI of the prequels.
post #41 of 117
The prequels used models, too, in fact more than the OT put together.
post #42 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by IndianSummerSky
EDITED TO SAY: Oh, JEDI is the worst SW flick. I'll take any of the prequels over it without a thought. The Luke & Leia scene helps me to cry to sleep at night.
At least someone in the world agrees with me. Whatever problems the prequels have (and they have them), all three tower over the first two acts of Return of the Jedi. The last act of Jedi, I'll admit, has some of the best stuff in the series, but it doesn't make it worth sitting through the rest.

And would everybody please stop bitching about the prequels being all CGI? Find out what you're talking about before you talk.
post #43 of 117
The only truly great moments in JEDI are the final space battle and the Emperor/Luke/Vader scenes. The rest is pretty cumbersome to sit through.

Looking at the faults of the prequels, at least they're more interesting and inventive than most of JEDI.
post #44 of 117
The Empire Strikes Back for me, is the one film of the original trilogy that, as i got older and watched it at various times throughout my life, i was able to appreaciate it in new and different ways.
Unlike Star Wars (no, i wont ever call it A New Hope) and Jedi, who's various flaws were exposed to me as i got older and wiser and more aware of the craft and artistry behind film making, Empire has risen in my estimation and revealled itself to be a truely remarkable film. Not just as a genre piece or entry in a franchise, but as a film on it's own.

I actually thank god i read this thread.
I tried to watch Sith for a second time the other night and stopped and started it three or four times, and just couldn't get through it.
I've been down on the whole series for a while now, I am just going to say I'm not a big fan of the prequels and i will leave it at that, so it was quite a nice sunday morning heartwarming moment to see that there is still some genuine love going around for one of the finest films of our time and be able to reconnect.
Share the love people!
post #45 of 117
Fuck it. I'm going to get this on DVD tonight. Haven't seen it since the re-release in the cinema's.
Thanks guys!
post #46 of 117
Coincidentally, I just picked up a widescreen LCD monitor and 5.1 surround speakers for my PC. Guess what movie I chose to christen the system with.
post #47 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nigel St. Buggering
Coincidentally, I just picked up a widescreen LCD monitor and 5.1 surround speakers for my PC. Guess what movie I chose to christen the system with.
Hopefully it was the untampered-with EMPIRE on either LD or bootleg DVD.
post #48 of 117
With the most recent release, there is no sin in watching the Empire SE.

And yes, Jedi is still the worst Star Wars film.
post #49 of 117
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crow
With the most recent release, there is no sin in watching the Empire SE.
I want "Bring my shuttle!" back.
post #50 of 117
The scream's gone. That's the only change that matters.
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