EMPIRE strikes back - Page 2

Is that right? Well, I gotta say they didn't do a great job with them.

Now, what are the changes from the original? I know the souped-up explosions, but what else?

97 SE
--new Wampa scenes
--Completely CG Cloud City exteriors
--Scene destroying BULLSHIT with Luke screaming as he falls down the air shaft after the Vader duel
--A few minor line replacements

2004 SE
--Scream is gone.
--Temuera Morrison redubs Boba Fett lines
--Monkey Lady Emperor Gone, Ian McDarmid in, with new dialogue.

There is not a single alteration in the EMPIRE SE or DVD that is in improvement, aside from the digital recompositing of the Hoth battle. It takes perfection and diminishes it. It's for this reason I find EMPIRE, "minimal" changes and all, to be the most painful SE of them all.

My problem with the new shots is that the originals weren't composed for that much background imagery in the frame. So now they appeared cluttered to me. Also, the point of this sequence is to show our heroes escaping, not to establish how big and beautiful Cloud City is, which at this point in the film, has already been made clear to us.

I also think the Falcon's extended approach to the landing platform is only there to show off some new effects, because the original version took care of the same storytelling in a more efficient manner.

It's kind of weird how Lucas really seems to get off on ships taking off and landing though. You could practically boil the Prequels down to: 1) Ship comes in for a landing; 2) Landing ramp deploys; 3) Characters have a meeting; 4) Characters discuss how they're either a) out of time or b) their enemies must be stopped; 5) Ship takes off.

The added material has the wrong effect: instead of clarifying the characters' locations for the audience, it worsens an existing continuity problem by delaying Vader's transit and suggesting that the Falcon practically tailgates him out of Bespin's orbit. Also, James Earl Jones' line reading is in too upbeat a tone-- it destroys the idea that Vader is rattled over losing Luke.

What would be a "great job"? You actually being aware of them?

If I got a dollar for every time someone complained about too much CGI in a specific scene in the prequels when it was really model work, I'd be richer than Bill Gates.

Yeah, not to mention the fact that Star Wars is set "Long, long ago, in a galaxy far, far away." If that doesn't describe the 70s I don't know what does.

They also didn't fix the matte blocks around the spaceships in the climactic space battle. This had me practically tearing my hair out. One of the only real flaws in the original FX, and they didn't bother to fix it, but they did feel the need to add in all new, unnecessary, shit. WTF? I'm even sure I read they were going to fix that, but I swear it's still there- but maybe I'm thinking of the older SEs. Is the matte blocking still there in the 2004 versions?

At least one more dollar after this thread, anyhow.

The rancor was bad, but I'm not sure what they could do with it.

As well, it would've been terrific to see both the young Anakin and Obi-Wan at the end.

It blows my mind that the SFX for the Rancor is so bad while stuff like the end space battle is some of the best I've ever seen. Like, what was ILM doing at the time they were rendering the Rancor? Watching too many episodes of STAR TREK?

I like the added Wampa scenes in EMPIRE SE, for no other reason than they look cool. The Wampa is one of my fave designs in the entire SW universe, so seeing more of him doesn't detract from the film in any way. Some say it ruins the mystery of the character, but it's not like Lucas & Co. revealed the entire back history on the creature or anything. It's just a few more seconds of screen time.

They did clean up the Rancor composites for the DVD so they don't look so Godzilla. As for the Jedi space battle, some of the key shots were remastered but a lot of matte boxes remain.

There's a surviving howler in Empire-- watch when the Falcon dives towards the camera and you can see the star destroyer right through it.

Well, they're totally different FX challenges, and were in fact handled by different ILM divisions. The Rancor crew was limited by the quality of the principal photography, and by a director who didn't shoot action very well.

This one is by far the most sacrilegious of all the changes made. The original voice for Fett was absolutely perfect and one of the key things that made his character so mysterious and popular. Morrison isn't just missing the mystique, but he's also missing the performance of the original line readings.

Now, IIRC in one of the comic adaptations wampas actually storm the rebel base. That would've been cool to see onscreen.

Absolutely. Kirshner deserves kudos for the work he did on this film, and I've read he said he wished he had done ROTJ.

Yeah, I've read that about Kershner too. Wonder what it would have been like, had he done it?

I agree, Empire does have the most frustratingly unecessay changes in the trilogy. My biggest gripe is Boba Fett's voice redux... absolutely horrible. I want to laugh everytime I hear him.

"He's no good to me dead."

I half expected him to shout out "how bout another shrimp on the barbie, eh?"

It's amazing how one line can completely ruin an entire scene. It makes me in awe of good actors.

All reasonable reasons, but during the first rough screening of the film, didn't anyone step up to the plate and say, "The Rancor is shit. We can do better...much better, guys"? It just sticks out like a sore thumb. After getting used to it all these years, I've come to accept the Rancor for its pure cheesiness and a humbling tribute to the early days of Willis O' Brien.

First of all, Morrison is from New Zealand, not Australia. Second, he is a good actor; watch Once Were Warriors. Third, if an accent is all it takes to take you out of a scene, you've got problems. And fourth, the original voice actor had no mystique other than what years of fans rewatching the film have leant it. The character had three lines, and the performance was a throwaway; it wasn't particularly good or bad, it was simply there. I don't see how Morrison's voice-over even begins to approach the level of a "Greedo shoots first" incident. It's a minor alteration at most.

I must admit that while I understand alterations in classic movies being seen as a bad thing, the alterations in both reversioned editions Empire are so minor that I can't get that worked up about them... one makes sense, McDarmid's inclusion as the Emperor, others are clean up work, one is a shot reused from Jedi and two are lines revoiced, which I'll be honest as a fan didn't bother me on any level other than "oh they revoiced that scene... wonder why?"

I understand getting worked up about things which fundamentally alter a movie or its characters (the oft mentioned Greedo shoot out in ANH is the obvious offender) but very minor changes just seem easily dismissed as a director wanking about... And lets be honest had those changes been in the films before you ever saw them, would it really have mattered to you?

Its like Alien: Directors cut... sure I heard about the cocoon scene with Tom Skerrit and Harry Dean Stanton being turned in to eggs, but its exclusion from the original (and later inclusion) in the film really didnt bother me... nor did it do much to ruin the film either way had I seen one version first before the other...

Sorry, Nigel, but I disagree about Morrison's line readings as Fett. Listen to his first line carefully: "As you wish." Okay, three words, right? No big deal? Listen to the original version, in which Gabriel Dell delivered the line with a tinge of regret, as if he was saying, "Really? I can't disintegrate Solo? Damn..." Then listen to Morrison's reading, which sounds more like, "You bet! Whatever you say, Chief!" That simple difference in delivery changes Fett from a independent, cold-hearted bad-ass into a willing Imperial stooge.

These changes might be minute but they add up, and ultimately, diminish a film that didn't need to be diminished.

One thing I do give ROTJ credit for is the final sabre battle between Darth and Luke. For all the Ray Park and double-bladed lightsabres, the prequels didn't come close until the final fight between Anakin and Obi-Wan, which was admittedly pretty good.

Well, it was getting close anyway. But that Anakin/Old Ben fight suffered from many of the problems that plagued the prequels. Just too much pointless CG eye candy, and some high-handed dialogue that didn't quite fit. What was the point of them fighting on those silly hovering platforms for instance. And "You were the chosen one!!!" I dunno. That final Darth/Luke fight worked so well on an emotional level, as well as working as great action. I really felt they were fighting about something that mattered to them. It was a gripping scene without having them to jump all over the place, or even change location- it took place all in one boring room! That scene also proved to me that Mark Hamill and David Prowse are pretty good actors in their own right.

You're exactly right. To me, the great thing about Empire is that it not only retroactively made Star Wars (oops, A New Hope; sorry George!) more interesting, but it also made the awful 2/3 of Jedi worth sitting through, and to a pretty good extent, it also set down 90% of the groundwork for the prequels. The Empire Strikes Back really is the essential heart of the Star Wars saga--whether your personal saga is three films or six--and, as others have mentioned, certainly the finest film out of the lot.

Well, if that's what you hear when Morrison says the line, there's not much I can do about it, but that interpretation is too extreme by half. I don't hear your interpretation in the original voice work, or in the new one. It's pretty much the difference between the original Fred Flintstone and the replacement; the Flintstones was still pretty much the same show afterwards.

Now I've opened up a whole debate about the Flintstones.

I guess you're right, but it is noticiable if you've seen the film thousands of times like I have...

Did you actually go and compare the two versions just now, or are you going off memory? If my interpretation is too extreme, yours is non-existent.

Another EMPIRE audio change to discuss:

EXT. DAGOBAH

Luke runs up to Artoo, having just been spit out by the swamp creature.

Original Version: LUKE: You're lucky you don't taste very good.

SE/DVD Version: LUKE: You were lucky to get out of there.

Now, if you don't think the original line is significantly better in terms of both character and humor, then yes, it's probably not worth discussing these "minor" changes anymore. If so, maybe we should split this thread into two: 1) EMPIRE serious fans and 2) EMPIRE casual viewers.

Look, I seriously doubt that anybody here has seen Empire significantly more than I have. I've seen it in a theater more than some people here have seen it in total. I paid to see the special edition alone six times. We could just as easily split the thread into 1) People who see Empire realistically as a piece of entertainment and 2) People who take Empire way, way too seriously.

The Empire Strikes Back was made as a piece of entertainment, and it does it arguably as well as any movie has ever done it. The fact is, for people who have seen it way into the double or triple digits, it has transcended being a movie, and turned into comfort food. Every frame and background sound effect has become something people expect and rely on. The special editions rankle some, not because they make the movie worse, but simply because they take away the comfort aspect. One interesting thing about seeing the special editions in the theater was that it forced the audience to watch the movies with new eyes again, since they never knew what they'd see next. It was an experience that, for some, brought back what it was like to watch them when they were first released.

Granted, some of the changes were unnecessary or harmful. But if something like Fett's new voiceover were the original version, I seriously doubt that you'd have a problem with it, or criticise it as detrimental to the film. It's only because these changes are changes that you've noticed them at all.

And that's my two cents on the special editions.

But Nigel, you completely dodged my questions. EMPIRE might be comfort food to some. To me it's art. Pop art, to be sure. But art nonetheless. You make it sound like it's merely upgradable software.

There's definitely a nostalgia factor-- I don't need for Han to say he'll get the shelter 'built' instead of 'up', and the change is certainly less intrusive than the deletion of Stairway to Heaven from the video versions of Wayne's World. But I'm getting old, and when a movie contradicts my (accurate) memories of it I worry that I'm going senile.

Put me on the side of folks who would just be happy to have a "Deleted Scenes" supplement on the DVD. The way Lucas constantly pretends that whatever he just rereleased is the way it always was, irks me.

That's not the way I meant it to sound. I see it as art as well, and I certainly don't support this constant tinkering with a movie that should have been finished. My main point (too lengthily made) was that some of the minor adjustments wouldn't be considered poor aspects of the movie if they'd appeared originally.

What I find really odd is Lucas' choices of what to change. If he bothered to replace Boba Fett's voice with Morrison for continuity with the prequels, wouldn't it make just as much sense to replace all of the Stormtroopers' dialogue as well?

No, but if certain minor changes were hypothetically reversed (Alt. 1980: "You were lucky to get out of there" / Alt. 1997: "You're lucky you don't taste very good") I would call them a slight improvement. That's the difference.

And that's my biggest problem with Lucas' revisionism. It's all so random and half-assed. I'm actually not opposed to a filmmaker making changes or fixes to their films (so long as the original version is also made available) but in GL's case, he fixes things that aren't broken and breaks things that didn't need to fixed. I still don't get why Anakin Skywalker, leader of intergalactic genocide, gets to be eternally young in the Afterlife while Yoda and Ben get stuck in old age. Oh, the true Anakin died when he was young, and it was Darth Vader who grew old? Bullshit. Then who was that who killed the Emperor and saved Luke at the end of JEDI? The fact that Lucas had to use EP3 outtakes of Hayden Christensen for the revised JEDI ending rather than properly shooting him for the scene speaks volumes.

Shhh!

I figured they had different voices because they were non-clone conscripts, but whatever.

"You're going to kill him, aren't you?"

Just the look on Obi-Wan's face as he considers what to say. I'm not getting dragged into another "prequels suck / prequels rule" argument, but that moment in Episode III -- where there's dialogue, yes, but the emotion comes through well before he speaks -- stands out for me as 'a character I've grown to care about who can command my attention and affection without saying a word.'

Well, yours comes almost two movies into the originals. Not that it matters. I was just pointing out a moment that struck me, character-wise, the way you were describing.

And the Vader shuttle scenes in Empire do hurt that film. I'm a pretty big defender of most SE/DVD changes, but I can't stand those moments. They kill the pacing as the Falcon tries to escape Cloud City.

Perfectly put, Nigel.


This one's pretty much a no brainer. A lot of the clones were either killed off/too old/defective by the time of ANH. That's why they'd started recruiting from the Imperial Academy (yes, the same one that Luke wants to run away to in ANH). Just like you wouldn't have WWII vets serving in infantry in Vietnam.

Lucas explains this in several interviews. But even despite that, a woman I work with who had never seen ANY of the movies, watched the EPISODES in numercal order (I thru VI) and picked that up all on her own.

(Also because she was seeing them without the 20 plus years of baggage, she also had some very interesting insights...but that's a whole other thread.)

Mm, but doesn't Luke say, "It's not that I like the Empire, I hate them, but there's nothing I can do about it right now"? That always confused me, though I may just be stupid.

A couple of you have now floated the idea that the stormtroopers are not clones. But if you listen to them in Star Wars, they all have the same voice. The idea of stormtroopers as clones existed in rumor as early as 1978, as I recall, no doubt egged on by the mention of "Clone Wars" in the first film. The identical voices were key to that.

Mainly because Ben Burtt performed most of the movie's ADR himself. But what's the deal with that gruff-voiced (even gruffer in the SE) trooper who shoots Threepio in Empire?

And seriously, what's the deal about trooper armor suddenly being a pressure-suit in Jedi? Every time one gets knocked down there's this 'fweee' sound and it's not consistent with anything else in the films.

There's apparently not much armor there, either. Arrows and small rocks seem to be sufficient to take them down.

I noticed a similar situation in Lord of the Rings; small rocks thrown by little people are apparently among the world's deadliest projectiles... and all this time we've been spending billions on advanced weaponry. Just get some midgets with rocks and we'll rule the world!

DEVELOPING STORY...

Looks like someone over at Home Theater Forum has fairly reliable word (from an editor for USA Today) that Lucasfilm is about to finally announce a DVD release of the ORIGINAL, UNFUCKED-WITH editions of the STAR WARS Trilogy.

The HTF thread:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...d.php?t=234109

The original post by David Colton, USA TODAY:

http://p075.ezboard.com/fmonsterkidc...icID=125.topic

Could be a bunch of bantha poodoo but hey, it sounds semi-promising...

I'll believe it when I see it, but if so, I'll be very happy to replace my boots.

On the point of the SEs, I'll say one new addition I'm really happy with: the CG hatch on the Falcon when Lando rescues Luke.

This would be swell. But consider me highly skeptical until word comes directly from GL or LFL.