Just saw The Shining for the first time - Page 3

I'm not saying they are relatives. Although they might be. I can't rule this out. What I'm saying is 'Torrence' and 'Grady' are caught in one long cycle of birth, destruction (which ends at the Overlook) and re-birth. Perhaps since the builiding of the Overlook, or even before (in which case there would be many Gradys and Torrences disappearing back into time - a bit like the effect you see when a TV camera focuses on the TV showing its feed). What Kubrick's saying - in what is a pretty pessimistic and bleak piece of work - is that regardless of time, no matter how far "mankind" progresses, no matter what "Torrence" and "Grady" get up to before the Overlook they'll still take a job at the Overlook and they'll commit the same horror ('You've always been the caretaker'). In thirty or forty or sixty or so years another Torrence or Grady will arrive at the Overlook - and he'll kill or attempt to kill his family too. And these horrors will similarly become distant memories regaled by the next Ullman - even forgotten about ('I find it hard to believe it happened here myself'). Both these entities are less reality than symbols for mankind. Mankind, who cannot escape killing his fellow man. Their lives are either wholly or partially determined beforehand. Or I should say their doomed lives are drawn. One of Danny's talents is the ability to see back through time. To see Fate mapped out as a series of drawings (some moving). As Tony says ... '[the fates of those that went before] are just like pictures in a book'.

Then again, it could be argued that the cycle is broken by Danny and his mother escaping, in which case Kubrick is suggesting there is hope for optimism.

That's what I said - he stripped away the worst excesses of King's purple prose and cut straight to the meatiness inside. People who complained - including King himself - that the film deviated too far from the book always miss that. It's a great adaptation of the book, because it highlights what is interesting and gets rid of the flab. And, God knows, King is a very flabby writer.

I don't think that they are relatives. I don't see how that is possible at all. For Torrance to have had a relative that he not know anything about that looks just like him?
I'm quite certain we can rule that out.
I read the last photo as indication the Hotel had absorbed Jacks spirit, like it did the woman in the bath, the twins and the freaky bear-mask-oral-sex guy.

Kubrick always said this was his most optimistic film, oddly enough. I think he specifically meant that any story that indicated that there was alife after death was a generally hopeful one.

I think this is the case.
The combined murderous, evil fury of both the Overlook and Jack Torrance were not enough to overcome a smart little boy and a desperate, protective mother.
I think that the ending is optimistic.

I think it's unlikely too. But I can't rule it out.

I thought that - until I remembered that there are two Gradys (Charles from the 70s, and Delbert the 20’s waiter who ‘corrected’ his wife and children). With this in mind I think it's likely there are two (or more) Torrances - Jack, and his 1924 predecessor. The mechanics of how two or more Gradys/Torrances come to exist in the Overlook is a bit of a mystery, but the presence of the two Gradys confirms - at least in my mind - they do.

It's certainly optimistic in that sense. But - unless Danny's and Wendy's escape breaks the cycle of domestic abuse and violence at the Overlook - it's totally pessimistic in this world. There's no escape from the sins of our fathers etc. etc.

Danny did escape the sins of his father, and he did it without violence and agression, and he did it in this world.
The most important moments in the film are the two sequences involving the maze: The first one being the scene in which Jack watches malevolantly as Wendy and Danny play, the second being when Danny retraces his own footsteps in the snow so his father can not follow him.
Danny and Wendy did not use violence and brutality to defeat the threat that both Jack and the Overlook presented, and with that Kubrick is suggesting an optimistic outcome.

That's true - but the question is whether the cycle of violence at the Overlook is broken? Is it all over - or are Danny and his mother simply the exceptions to the norm. Will another 'Torrence' or 'Grady' return at some future point to terrorise his family? Difficult to say, IMO.

As i mentioned before, I think Jack Torrance and the Overlook Hotel enjoyed a symbotic relationship in which both Jack and The Overlooks supressed fury and violence, essentailly fed each other.
The shot of Jack showing him lifeless and freezing over is, i think, also indicative of the fate of the spirits that haunt The Overlook.

The two Gradys, and the implication that there were two Torrances are the only changes from the book that bother me. If I recall, in the book the Overlook wanted Danny and didn't give a shit about Jack, but it made him think it did. It made him think he was important, which fed into his inadequacies as a writer, parent and husband. To suggest that he has some long-standing relationship with the hotel and that his stint as winter caretaker is some kind of homecoming rubs me the wrong way.

I think there's a strong implication that there are more than two Torrances. Remember Delbert Grady's words 'You've always been the caretaker here'. The Overlook was built long before 1924.

But wouldn't this be just another Amityville Horror (which was released pretty much around the same time, IIRC)?

I always took that line, "You've always been the caretaker here", as the Overlook's way of making Jack feel like he belongs. Like the Overlook is his destiny. It goes back to what I wrote about it making him feel important.

But I can't deny the implication for two Torrances was there. Kubrick obviously had his reasons for there being two Gradys. That wasn't an accident. I just don't think the idea is fleshed out enough in the movie to trump King's intention in the novel. It's pretty open to interpretation.

But even without that duality theme the movie and novel are still way above and beyond The Amityville Horror. That was just pure shit.

At first I thought it was. Easiest thing in the world to get names muddled up in a screenplay. Then I thought - any other director than Kubrick, maybe. Then there's the timeshifts - Delbert Grady is clearly a 1920's waiter. Charles Grady - according to Ullman - was the caretaker during the 70s. There's no doubt there are two (or more) Gradys. To which Grady the two children belong that Danny sees - I'm not sure. Perhaps the latter.

I agree entirely - but the criticism would have been raised if they'd followed the original plot. I've just checked IMDB - AH was released a year before TS.

Agreed about the original AH... saw it finally at a film festival coupla years back... laughed through most of it... only redeeming qualities I can think of are:
1. Puking nun
2. James Brolin's awesome facial hair

I thought R Reynold's remake was better.

Wasn't the true story (that AH was based on) basically the Shining's original inspiration? I remember reading that somewhere...

I was thinking of horting a themed party with redrum... think it will spook people?

They'll think it's cute.

Have a man in an animal costume give them oral sex.

The thing that puzzles me about The Shining most of all is why Kubrick left the shadow of the helicopter in the opening sequence. It's not hard to miss. Someone must have seen it.

I henceforth forbid the use of "true story" and Amityville Horror in the same sentence ever again - well, unless it's something like "the true story is that the supposed events of the Amityville Horror are absolute bollocks."

I may be wrong about this, but i'm pretty sure that i read something about Ridley Scott getting his hands on the unused film they shot from the Helicopter and being amazed at how much of it there was.

He used some it for the Blade Runner Director's Cut.

If I´m not wrong, I think that the Shining footage is used in the original cut of Blade Runner, when Rachel and Deckard are in a car, just at the end and we can hear that monologue that inform us Rachel was a new model and all of that nonsense.

I like the movie more than the book. It is much scarier, as stated before, that Jack seems fucked up before he gets to the hotel

"It's okay, he saw it in television" that is an evil bastard

I'll also add to hatred of the mini-series. God that buck-toothed freak that played Danny annoyed the piss out of me.

Glad I'm not the only one... A face made for VO work...

This is one of my favourite films and I'd always heard about how the UK Cut (ie the one I've seen my entire life) differed from the US Cut. I know that over twenty minutes of footage were cut to get the run time down from 144 minutes to 119 minutes but today was the first day I actually bothered to look up the changes. 

 

From IMDB

 

 

 

 

 

After the first scene with Wendy ('Shelley Duvall' ) and Danny (Danny Lloyd), the film cuts back to Jack (Jack Nicholson) at the Overlook, where his interview with Stuart Ullman (Barry Nelson) continues. Jack is introduced to Bill Watson (Barry Dennen), and Ullman tells Watson that Jack used to work as a schoolteacher. Jack says he became a writer because he needed a change in his life. Ullman then explains that the Overlook is closed every winter from the end of October to the following May, because it would be too expensive to keep the roads open, and he points out that the site was chosen specifically for its seclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When Danny first 'sees' the Grady twins in his bathroom at home, he blacks out. When he awakes, he is being examined by a doctor ('Anne Jackson' ). This entire examination scene, and the subsequent conversations were all cut. Danny says that before his black-out he was talking to Tony, "the little boy who lives inside my mouth". Wendy and the Doctor then talk in private, and Wendy mentions an incident in which Jack dislocated Danny's shoulder in a drunken fit of temper, at which time he swore never to touch alcohol again. That was five months ago, and since then, he has kept his word.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

During their tour of the Overlook, Jack and Wendy are brought into the Colorado Lounge, and Wendy asks if the Indian designs are authentic. Ullman explains that they are based on ancient Navajo and Apache motifs. He then mentions the prestigious history of the hotel, saying it was a stopping place for the jet set, for four presidents, movie stars and "all the best people".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The beginning of the scene where Ullman shows Jack and Wendy the hotel grounds has been cut. He points out "our famous hedge maze" and warns them not to go in unless they have an hour or so to spare.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Prior to the introduction of Dick Hallorann (Scatman Crothers), Ullman shows off The Gold Room and explains that all liquor is removed during the winter so as to reduce insurance costs. Hallorann is then introduced, and the secretary Susie (Alison Coleridge) appears, having found Danny outside the games room. Ullman then leaves with Jack, and Hallorann takes Wendy around the kitchen.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of Danny's conversation with Hallorann has been cut. Danny asks Hallorann if he is scared of the Overlook, and Hallorann replies that he isn't, but that "some places are like people, some shine and some don't. I guess you could say the Overlook Hotel here has something about it that's like shining."

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The first few shots of Wendy wheeling the breakfast tray through the corridors have been cut.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The end of the scene where Wendy brings Jack his breakfast has been cut. He comments that he has never been as happy or as comfortable anywhere as he is in the Overlook and Wendy reveals that she thought the place was scary when they first arrived. Jack replies that he fell in love with it straight away and he felt as if he had been there before.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The scene of Jack throwing the ball against the wall is shorter.

 

 

 

 

 

After Wendy and Danny explore the maze, a sequence has been cut showing Wendy working in the kitchen while a TV announcer talks of a search in the mountains for a missing woman, and a snow-storm that is predicted to be moving in on Colorado.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Following the scene in which Jack loses his temper with Wendy for interrupting him, the title THURSDAY was deleted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After the scene in which Danny is confronted by the Grady twins in the corridor, and they invite him to play with them, a scene has been cut in which Wendy and Danny are watching TV. Danny asks if he can go to his room to get his toy fire-engine and Wendy tells him to be quiet because Jack is sleeping.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some dialogue has been cut from the first conversation between Jack and Lloyd (Joe Turkel). Jack toasts, "Here's to five miserable months on the wagon and all the irreparable harm that it's caused me". Lloyd then asks him how things are, and Jack comments that they could be a whole lot better, that he is having trouble with his wife. Lloyd comments, "Women! Can't live with 'em. Can't live without 'em", and Jack wholeheartedly agrees.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After he has returned from examining Room 237, Jack's conversation with Wendy is slightly shorter.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

After the scene between Jack and Grady ('Philip Stone' ), a sequence has been cut in which Wendy is seen crying and talking to herself, musing about the possibility of getting down the mountain in the Sno-cat, and of calling the Forest Rangers. She then hears Danny calling out "red rum" over and over, but when she tries to talk to him, she is only 'answered' by Tony, who tells her that Danny can't hear her.

 

 

 

 

 

 

A scene has been cut in which Hallorann tries to get through to the Overlook by calling the Ranger station. They tell him that they've tried to get through several times but there has been no answer, and they offer to try again later.

 

 

 

 

 

Prior to the shot of Hallorann's plane, the title 8AM has been deleted.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On the plane, Hallorann asks a stewardess what time they are due to land in Denver and she tells him at 8.20. Jack is then seen typing in the lounge of the Overlook. Hallorann's plane lands at the airport and he calls Larry Durkin (Tony Burton), a garage owner, to rent a Sno-cat so as to get up to the Overlook. Durkin says the mountain roads are completely blocked off, and Hallorann explains that the people looking after the hotel turned out to be "completely unreliable assholes". Hallorann estimates that it will take him five hours to drive from the airport to collect the cat, and Larry says the Sno-cat will be waiting for him when he arrives.

 

 

 

 

 

 

The beginning of the scene in which Wendy finds Jack's type-written pages has been cut. She and Danny are watching television and she looks at her watch, telling Danny that she is going to talk to his father for a few minutes and that he should stay there. She picks up the baseball bat before leaving.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In the final scene, when Jack is pursuing Danny through the maze and Wendy is being confronted by some of the Overlook spooks, a short scene where she encounters a group of skeletons sitting at a table with a champagne bottle and glasses has been cut.

 

 

 

 

 

This explains one thing, I've never been able to figure out where the reading of the film as a metaphor for the slaughter of Native Americans originated from. It seems like the American cut has a few moments which make that subtext text. Anyone seen both versions, care to compare and contrast?

 

ETA: Apologies for the formatting, apparently the new Chud doesn't support larger quotes. 

Damn. I mean they're small in some ways, but fucking hell I cannot imagine seeing the film with all of that cut.

Wow they really cut some good shit. The bit where Danny speaks to his mother through Tony has always stuck in my head.

I don't get why most of these scenes would be cut.  Was it just to shorten the runtime to have more showings per day?

This is why I like Shelly Duvall so much in the movie. I wouldn't be surprised if the character had been abused as a child and married another abuser. By the end of the movie, she's a screaming mess, but she steps up to save her son. She's one of the all-time great Final Girls in a horror movie(Even though it's not a slasher movie and she doesn't actually kill Jack)