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Um, did Clemens test positive?

post #1 of 45
6/3/06 at 2:21pm
Thread Starter 
This is one of those half-baseless sports conspiracies that I'm starting to buy into.

The current suspension if a player tests positive for juicing is 50 games. Clemens signs his big contract this week right after the Astors cross the 50 game mark. I can completely see Clemens testing positive at some point last season. Then MLB, not wanting to see another one of their superstars tarnished, tells Clemens that they'll keep it hush-hush if he peacefully sits out the first 50 games of the '06 season as a free agent.

Clemens is pretty much to pitching as Bonds is to hitting. He's dominated his position at an age when most pitchers would be lucky to hang around as a middle inning reliever. A lot of that is from a rigorous training schedule, but is there more to it than that?
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post #2 of 45
6/3/06 at 2:31pm
I wouldn't put it past him. Clemens is a real jerk, and his ridiculously strong health in his advanced age seems suspect. Still I'll wait on more concrete evidence before I ever seriously entertain this notion.
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post #3 of 45
6/3/06 at 3:05pm
Interesting theory, and knowing the corrupt nature of professional sports, especially baseball, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
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post #4 of 45
6/3/06 at 3:39pm
They had a similar theory with Jordan and gambling. I wouldn't doubt it but unless there is a little proof I let it slide.

Another theory is that he wanted to play with his kid bit he was injured so that's why he waited.
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post #5 of 45
6/3/06 at 5:25pm
Conspiracy theories are fun...but there is no record or allegations anywhere that would give credence to this. The guy broke down in the playoffs the last two years. He is too old to handle a full season. He wanted to do the half season thing...pad his records and get another ring.
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post #6 of 45
6/3/06 at 5:26pm
that whole situation seems like quite a coincidence, 50 games, Clemens late career abilities, him beig an asshole, etc. I buy it, he juiced.

how would Jordan and gambling have anything to do with Clemens and juicing. Unless there was a rumopr that Jordan bet on his own basketball games and then lost on purpose it can't possibly be related. And he won just about every game so that doesn't seem possible.
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post #7 of 45
6/3/06 at 5:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swedish miyagi
that whole situation seems like quite a coincidence, 50 games, Clemens late career abilities, him beig an asshole, etc. I buy it, he juiced.
Hall of Fame pitchers have had many of these traits. Take Bob Gibson...he was considered a tremendous asshole on the field. Take Warren Spahn who had great seasons in his 40s (and was not a knuckleballer). Pitchers like Sandy Koufax used wierd schedules at times to counter physical issues.

This is the real problem with Barry Bondsgate....everytime a player does anything interesting we are ready to say he juiced.
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post #8 of 45
6/3/06 at 5:50pm
Thread Starter 
But to me the problem is that steroids obviously go far beyond Bonds and baseball really can't afford to have another superstar tainted. When Palmerio got caught last season it was a huge story and he's nowhere near the superstar that Clemens is. It's no big deal if the 4th outfielder for the Devil Rays gets busted because nobody cares. MLB would look out for its assets though.

This is just a theory. There is no proof. But if years after he retires it comes out that he was using I won't be surprised one bit.
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post #9 of 45
6/3/06 at 6:43pm
Umm, they(management and sports news a'la ESPN) told us last year before the season was over that if the Astros didn't sign him or offer arbitration(which they did not) they wouldn't be able to sign him till after the date given. Reason?? They had to have a period of time where other clubs could offer him contracts without Astro interference because his contract was in effect finished. In other words the 'Stros had no ties to him and couldn't sign him per the collective bargaining agreement.(I think, not 100% sure) Now would I put it past Clemens to juice? I guess not, you can't tell who is and who isn't for the most part. But does the Astros signing him after 50 games mean anything? Probably not.
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post #10 of 45
6/3/06 at 6:52pm
Thread Starter 
Fair enough, but it still looks bad in my mind that this all happens after 50 games.

Perhaps a more interesting question at this point is would baseball allow one of their true superstars to test positive? After Palmerio and even Bonds, who hasn't even tested positive, I say no.
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post #11 of 45
6/3/06 at 6:55pm
Oh I totally agree and I have my suspicions that that's what kept Bonds out last year. But the 50 games thing just seems more coincedental since we knew last year the time frame. BUT if baseball let Clemens pitch after a positive test and used the time frame to their advantage, that's a scandal in waiting if there ever was one. Baseball is so crooked, it's become the new boxing.
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post #12 of 45
6/3/06 at 7:18pm
This was actually a more popular conspiracy theory on sports radio and in a lot of print sources as well about the 50 games actually being an under the table suspension.

Its fun to think that, but I would HOPE baseball has learned something and would try to avoid doing shit like that/this because its inevitable in this day and age that it would get out, and frankly that would kill baseball for another 10 years.
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post #13 of 45
6/4/06 at 4:58pm
My question about this theory is whether or not sitting out as a free agent would even count as a suspension. I think it probably would not -- In other words, Clemens would actually have to have a contract with a major league team in order to serve the 50-game suspension. He couldn't just "retire" for 50 games, then sign a new FA deal with the Astros (or whomever, it just happened to be the 'Stros), and consider the suspension served. I don't think that's how it works, although I'm not certain.

But if it's true, then Selig would have to have greased the wheels and a bunch of other people would have to be in on a cover-up. Now, I hate Clemens and Selig as much as the next guy, but that sounds a little too improbable to me. Selig is an ass, but he's not stupid, and having a cover-up like this exposed would ruin him. I don't think he'd risk his own ass like that just to cover for Clemens.
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post #14 of 45
6/4/06 at 9:14pm
Selig is already pretty much ruined anyway, but if he did admit that Clemens juiced that would ruin him and baseball to a large degree as well, lying about it would at least delay the pain. I'm not actually claiming to be sure of anything, just very suspicious.
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post #15 of 45
6/4/06 at 9:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by thejumbo
Interesting theory, and knowing the corrupt nature of professional sports, especially baseball, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
It wouldn't surprise me either. Theres too much money involved and the black eye that baseball would receive would be large and paint the sport even worse across the board. Imagine if you will those news stories and pieces with empty stadiums asking if the Rocket and Barry could do it who else? The microscope would get even larger and the damage even harder to recover from.

There is just too many dollars at stake let alone prestige.
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post #16 of 45
6/5/06 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe LeFors
I think it probably would not -- In other words, Clemens would actually have to have a contract with a major league team in order to serve the 50-game suspension. He couldn't just "retire" for 50 games, then sign a new FA deal with the Astros (or whomever, it just happened to be the 'Stros), and consider the suspension served. I don't think that's how it works, although I'm not certain.
This is true. Just like Ricky Williams couldn't count his time in India toward his drug suspension, if Clemens had tested positive, he would be suspended for 50 games starting from the point he is on the Astros roster.
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post #17 of 45
6/5/06 at 11:40am
Thread Starter 
Being a free agent is part of the conspiracy. If he was on a roster and was out 50 games it would look even worse.
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post #18 of 45
6/5/06 at 12:04pm
You can't serve a suspension while not having a contract, though. It's not possible. He wasn't on any roster to be suspended from.
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post #19 of 45
6/5/06 at 12:32pm
Guttenburg's 100% right.

Along with that, he wasn't even allowed to sign a contract with the Astros until May 5th.

This myth is busted.
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post #20 of 45
6/5/06 at 12:35pm
For instance, Roman Pulanski can't live in France for 10 years and then say 'well, now I can move back to the states because that's how long my sentence would have been'.
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post #21 of 45
6/5/06 at 12:36pm
Thread Starter 
I don't mean to go all Oliver Stone but that's the beauty of the deal. MLB tells Clemens to sit out the first 50 games of the season on his own. If he had signed a deal with the Astros, or any team, and then been out for 50 games it would be obvious he got popped. This way it just looks like Clemens was hanging out with his family and weighing his options.
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post #22 of 45
6/5/06 at 12:47pm
If they can hide that he failed the test, why suspend him at all? Why not just bury the results?
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post #23 of 45
6/5/06 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 
Because they have to send some kind of message to Clemens that he screwed up.
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post #24 of 45
6/5/06 at 1:13pm
They send him a message by covering everything up? If this were true, he'd has more leverage against them than they do against him and he'd have carte blanche to keep doing steroids without any reprecussions.
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post #25 of 45
6/5/06 at 1:17pm
Thread Starter 
Not really, if he were to reveal the conspiracy his legacy goes right down the drain. Both Clemens and MLB lose if it comes out he tested positive.
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post #26 of 45
6/5/06 at 1:21pm
MLB can never let it slip that they covered up a player testing positive. They will be hurt so much more than Roger Clemens. They'd get a beat down by Congress and the whole sport would be tainted unlike it has ever been. Clemens can get MLB to cover up ANY drug testing he'll ever fail because they covered up this first one. Which is a position MLB would not be stupid enough to put itself in.
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post #27 of 45
6/5/06 at 1:27pm
Thread Starter 
Baseball is screwed whether they say Clemens tested positive or if they try to cover it up. If they try to cover it up they at least have a chance of it not coming out. Plus, if they do a good enough job of covering it up only crackpots like me will buy into it and will be labeled as such for not having "evidence."
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post #28 of 45
6/5/06 at 1:35pm
MLB would lose some juice from busting someone like Clemens, but in the long run, they'd gain a lot of trust.
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post #29 of 45
6/5/06 at 1:38pm
I really can't see losing a superstar as being anywhere near as damaging as getting caught tainting the entire process from the top of the ladder. The MLB, I'm certain, would much rather take the hit and hang him out to dry as opposed to directly implicating themselves in something like that.
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post #30 of 45
6/5/06 at 1:42pm
Maybe Clemens got word unofficially that MLB will be testing for HGH in the near future and needed time to 'clean-up'. Or maybe you can't clean human growth hormone out of your system. Or something.

The guy's gotta be taking something.
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post #31 of 45
6/5/06 at 2:30pm
Yeah because you just can't be that good after 40. There's just no precedent for anything like that. /sarcasm (almost every sport has 2-3 guys who are great at or around 40, do some research and you'll see it's true) Clemens is a dickhead most would agree, but I honestly don't see why people truly believe in this theory. As Guttenberg and others have noted May 5th was the earliest date to sign and 50 games have not occured since that time. This kind of debunks the whole "50 games" angle. Also it's rare that Clemens gets further than the 6th or 7th inning, so it's not like he's pitching full games and staying strong for 9 innings. But it doesn't hurt to play the what if game I guess.
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post #32 of 45
6/5/06 at 3:43pm
The thought of Selig and Co. keeping something like that under wraps indefinitely is a dubious proposition, hence I am quite skeptical. I think Clemens simply wants to play half a season.

The Jordan/gambling debts/suspension/father murdered rumors, however, seem like they may have a kernel of truth. "Iron Fist" Stern is quite capable of keeping something like that quiet.

MJ, at his goodbye press-conference, said something to the effect of "I'll be back if the commissioner lets me back in. . . " Now, why would the commissioner have to let him back in?
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post #33 of 45
6/7/06 at 5:24am
can you elaborate on the Jordan rumor, I can't see why Stern would not want him on the court as much as possible.

I'd love to know what the hell really goes on at the desk of Bud Selig, hopefully there's been an ongoing sting operation that's about to become public.
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post #34 of 45
6/7/06 at 1:39pm
The Jordan rumour is about his first retirement in 1993. This was about the time that alot of his gambling exploits were first becoming public. Many people fell he was told by Stern to maybe lay low for a year or two to avoid being investigated by the league.
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post #35 of 45
6/7/06 at 3:55pm
but he would've had to gamble on basketball, specifically his team losing, for the league to give a shit, he won 3 championships in a row so that didn't happen so I don't think that rumor makes a ton of sense. The NBA would not investigate a player gambling in general: casinos, golf courses, on other sports. Those would be irrelevant activities.
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post #36 of 45
6/7/06 at 4:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wease
The Jordan rumour is about his first retirement in 1993. This was about the time that alot of his gambling exploits were first becoming public. Many people fell he was told by Stern to maybe lay low for a year or two to avoid being investigated by the league.
I don't give much weight to this theory. People forget that his dad was murdered not long before he announced his retirement. Basketball probably didn't seem as important. Instead he played pro baseball for a year, which was a dream both he and his father shared.
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post #37 of 45
6/7/06 at 4:40pm
Oh I never said I believed this rumour just that this was what some people were speculating.
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post #38 of 45
6/7/06 at 4:50pm
The jordan rumor involves big time betting with mob type guys. Jordan owing millions to the mob does not look good for the league (its best player in a giant gambling scandal). So the theory goes Stern told him to leave basketball for a little until it blows over, hence he went to play baseball to keep in playing shape. If it is true or not, Jordan did lose millions gambling with mob guys.
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post #39 of 45
6/7/06 at 4:56pm
I am not saying I believe Clemens took roids or HGH, but it would not surprise me. Rumors of him being juiced having been floating around for awhile. There was a story that Clemens and some other super star popped positive a year or so ago, according to the story the names and suspensions were on there way. Nothing ever came of it, no names or suspensions ever came out.

Baseball would not surprise me on a cover up. They spent a decade looking the other way (Canseco era), and they did their damnest to cover their eyes during the Maguire/Sosa race.
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post #40 of 45
6/7/06 at 5:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wease
Oh I never said I believed this rumour just that this was what some people were speculating.
Fair enough.

But regarding Clemens:

Jason Grimsley, who until this afternoon was a pitcher for the Diamondbacks, told the feds he used steroids and HGH, he also named names regarding other players who used them. 13 federal agents searched his house yesterday.

In 1999 and 2000 he was on the Yankees with Roger Clemens.

Hopefully it's just a coincidence. It probably is.

Edit: Here's the story
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post #41 of 45
6/7/06 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nine

Jason Grimsley, who until this afternoon was a pitcher for the Diamondbacks, told the feds he used steroids and HGH, he also named names regarding other players who used them. 13 federal agents searched his house yesterday.

In 1999 and 2000 he was on the Yankees with Roger Clemens.
It's all coming together. We are through the looking glass.
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post #42 of 45
6/7/06 at 5:39pm
I wouldn't be suprised if Clemens (or anybody) took HGH. I'd be SHOCKED if Clemens tested positive for it last year, however, considering they don't test for it.

If Clemens did do HGH, MLB did not know about it and if it did know about it, wouldn't broker a deal for him to take a couple months off and then come back. They'd have him retire.
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post #43 of 45
6/7/06 at 5:59pm
Yeah I do not think Clemens has tested positive, and yes they can not test for HGH. He played in that world baseball thing, they used international testing for that right ? He came through that fine.

I reading that this Grimsley thing could be pretty explosive, from the names he has given.
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post #44 of 45
6/7/06 at 6:32pm
And weren't there some guys on the Astros who were likely on juice. Jeff "Buff" Bagwell looked like he deflated about 50 lbs after they started testing for steroids, speculation, but suspicious.
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post #45 of 45
6/7/06 at 6:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by swedish miyagi
And weren't there some guys on the Astros who were likely on juice. Jeff "Buff" Bagwell looked like he deflated about 50 lbs after they started testing for steroids, speculation, but suspicious.
He probably juiced his whole career which explains the lame shoulder. Roid users can never keep healthy and the body can only take so much. Which is why I'd be surprised if Clemens popped. But you never can tell, at least till the results come in. All the other 'Stros look pretty average and Berkman's a chunk so I doubt he juices. So I think saying there were/are "some guys on the Astros who were likely on juice" may be a bit persumptious.
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