SUPERMAN RETURNS: Post-release Discussion - Page 3

I absolutely loved it. I had never seen the original films (any of them) so everything was fresh to me (i.e. the Plane Statistic Speech).

As far as the "American Way" thing, it may be just me but I think that not having it said did a great deal more to reinforce it in the viewers. I saw Langella as a sort of less cartoony J. Jonah Jameson, insofar as he's ultra-jaded and cynical. He doesn't see Superman's ideals as ideals, but rather as a catchphrase and it's easy for him to brush it off, but he does it in such an abrupt way that we can't help but notice and I think it's driven home a little stronger than had he just said the words. But that's just the way I saw it.

There were a few things I didn't like - mainly everything after he falls back to Earth. Everything prior had this sweeping, epic, sort of etheral feel to it and once they take him to the hospital all that sort of falls apart. It also really bugged me that they showed Jason using his powers to hurl the piano. They gave away that mystery, but every chance he would have had to use them later on, there seemed to be this mystery about it, like Singer wanted us to wonder, but there was nothing to wonder about anymore. I got the part about his medicine keeping his powers at bay since he did the piano bit in the midst of an asthma attack, but she never had a chance to give him any medicine after that to subdue his powers again. That felt like clumsy storytelling to me.

I did, however, like the talk he gave to Jason and I like the last little bit with him and Lois. It seemed to me that when she saw him leave Jason's room that maybe she was a little nervous that he was going to be somewhat of a burden on her family and he was real quick to let her know that that wasn't an issue. It was subtle, but it was sweet.

Anyway, I've gone on long enough. I did absolutely love this movie, though.

The 3D segments of the IMAX showing were pretty nifty. It's odd though that the opening credits wasn't one of them, for all the swooping through the cosmos and zooming graphics. Instead, they wait for a static shot of a goat to initiate you into the world of 3D.

That sounds odd.

I turned down the opportunity to see it last night and am waiting to see it in IMAX 3D this weekend, even though I remain on a fairly even keel of excitement about the film. I've read more positive reviews than negative ones, so here's hoping it's worth the wait.

I chose to wait and see Batman Begins on IMAX on opening weekend and it was well worth it.

Much of the night flight with Supes and Lois.

Superman's flight to the sun.

Superman, in orbit, listening to humanity.

Clark watching Lois in the elevator.

The look in Supes' eyes as he pushes off the crystal mass, and his fall to earth.

IMHO, I would classify each and every one of those things as moments of beauty and wonder. If they didn't get you, fine and great, everyone sees thigns differently...but personally, those scenes had a lyrical sensibility that I was thrilled to see in a summer blockbuster, and genuinely moved me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgYhLIThTvk

If you haven't watched the Evening With Kevin Smith DVD, watch it. Or just watch this clip of Smith's brief experience as a writer on Superman Lives. It's fucking hysterical and also a little sad how somebody as rich as Jon Peters can be such a complete retard.

I'm going to avoid the mini-review and say that a lot of people have touched on what I loved, which was just about everything.

My main impression is Brandon Routh and what an unbelievable find he has become. All the Talkbackers and naysayers and people who still coudn't give Singer the benefit of the doubt on casting (arguably his strongest gift) are proven 4000% wrong. The guy is amazing. He's Superman. I don't think there was any leading man today who seemed like Superman, and this "nbody" just nailed it. He's got a terrific Reeve impersonation as Clark, and a slightly new take on Superman (and he looks great in the suit).

I loved the iconic, pseudo-religious imagery, including the brutal beating he takes. I loved how Routh wasn't afraid to play hurt, scared, vulnerable. His Superman doesn't try to choke it down, he's like Reeve's Superman, he's a god who's never felt pain. So when he does, it terrifies and scares him. He just wants to crawl away.

Ottman's score is fantastic. Spacey's Luthor is great. And I will say this. I loved the sappy ending. I wouldn't calll it that myself, but I loved it. They made Superman sort of human for a moment, and the way Routh played the scene with the kid, the tears in his eyes and pride as he talked to his son. Loved it.

Wonder from him peeping at someone in an elevator? I don't know what definition of wonder you're using here, but it's not the same as mine.

Unless you mean "I wonder when Superman became a stalkery peeping tom," which crossed my mind as he spied on Lois at home.

THANK you. I thought that was the most humanizing moment of the entire movie series.

The wonder in the elevator scene was that there was nothing creepy or malicious about it; it was a moment of innocence and love.

As for the house scene, as someone else accurately pointed out - Superman has ALWAYS been a peeping tom. That's Clark's whole function. He's Superman's infiltrator, gathering information that Superman should never possibly have about humans. And he's constantly using Clark to put himself in a better position.

Either you go with that, or you don't. Me, I'm down with it and my disbelief is duly suspended. I do remember, though, laughing my ass off over a TV Funhouse parody with a Superman-like hero who uses his great abilities to get his alter ego laid. That was certainly the natural conclusion to the whole secret identity game...

Are you one of the people who really relates to the whole "plastic bag is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen" concept from AMERICAN BEAUTY? Because honestly, if you get a sense of wonder from the elevator scene, I suspect you may be regularly stunned by the wonder of trash compactors.

I like poetry. I like lyricism. I like moments of helpless love. So sue me.

It was a nice shot. It wasn't poetry. I see that the SUPERMAN RETURNS people will be using time honored methods of hyperbole in threads.

Superman does it from behind and has no patience for that sissy kissing stuff.

Uhm...you don't get to be the arbiter of what poetry is, except for yourself. I thought it was a poetic moment. You didn't. Let's agree to disagree and not shit all over this thread with cheap baiting.

It's not cheap baiting. You're making hyperbolic statements without any kind of backup. If your whole thing is going to be, "Well, it's my opinion," don't bother sharing it. What's the point of a discussion if opinions are sacrosanct and have no need for backing?

Because you ASKED my opinion, and I shared it. I don't need backup for an aesthetic judgment. I like red. I don't need to back that up.

Innocence and love? That's why, at the end of their flying sequence, Supes flies Lois right by her house. Because he's innocent. 'Superman is a dick' indeed. This guy can fly her ANYWHERE, and the path he takes is right next to her house? With the plane outside? He's like Zaphod Beeblebrox in that scene. "Hey baby, is this guy boring you? I've got a spaceship. No, wait. I AM A SPACESHIP."

I love the stalker moments, because they show Superman making a choice about what person he wants to be. Is he a hero, or a cad? Those are the humanizing moments. Just because he can do anything doesn't mean he should, and that's a very cool decision to see him making. But innocent? This Superman is not innocent.

That makes a lot of sense, although I saw it as more of him reminding her that he does still care. He's kept up with her. He's showing her that he knows what's going on in her life and that he's still interested in her. Her faith in him was obviously shattered when he took off and she felt rejected. I saw it as more of a reassurance that she still mattered to him.

I think the cure for this argument is a little old-fashioned nerd question.

Is the assumption that Lois is pregnant from "Superman II" when they were married and spent the night together? If so, her mind was wiped, so she really wouldn't know that they'd had sex. Which would make a "super baby" and mystery pregnancy pretty damn creepy. When Lex asks "who is that boy's father" she hesitates, and I think the obvious implication is that she knows it's Superman's before he even manifests his powers.

Watching the film I just figured it was supposed to be this rendezvous they had that we never saw, a super "one night stand" or something. That actually worked better in my head, and fits better with her hiding it from Richard, than somehow being pregnant from "Superman II" and somehow remembering it despite mind wipe.

Heehee...I'm not gonna disagree with you there, and for me, it's totally different from the elevator moment, which IMO isn't about this character conflict, but a guy who simply loves a woman. I do think it's an innocent moment - but his character in this is far from innocent, I agree completely.

Anyway, yeah, the house scenes are interesting, as you intimated, because they all start from the place of, "I have the power to fuck up their lives. Am I going to do it?"

Maybe the final argument will be the Donner version, if his ending exists. I don't think his version has the magic amnesia kiss. It clearly doesn't make sense in the existing continuity.

That would be interesting, but I don't buy it. I just don't see them having based their story on a version of a movie that no one's ever seen and doesn't even exist yet. It would be kind of cool I suppose from an uber-geek perspective, but that's about it.

I think they cleverly leave it open enough so as not to confuse and put off the masses, yet tie it to continuity just enough to please the fans. I saw it with some people who'd never seen "Superman II", and it didn't faze them. I think they do a good enough job, actors included, of implying a connection and history that them having had sex really isn't a big stretch.

If it doesn't have magic amnesia kiss, then shouldn't she know that he's Clark Kent?

And I hate to fall back on the old fanboy "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex" argument, but it makes much more sense for Lois to have been impregnated by a depowered Clark.

Yeah, the film does a pretty good job of implying that Lois rode the Krypton express at least once in the past. I too saw it with people who have never seen Superman II and they weren't calling shennanigans on that plot point.

The only thing that really bugs me about the movie is the lack of resolution with Luthor. Instead of throwing in that deserted island scene (admittedly great) in the middle of the "Superman recovers" scenes, I think they should've held off on them until after he was back up and flying around again. Wouldn't it have been great for Lex and Kitty to be stuck on that island, only for Superman to show up and ask him if he needs a lift? The amount of pissed off that would've cause Luthor makes me giddy to even think about. Instead, there's that incredibly odd pacing and plot blunder in a film that had been pretty tight about all that beforehand.

Still loved the movie, though. Can't wait to take Danger's 9-year-old sister to see it this weekend.

Yeah, it definitely does. I think this is the chief reason that Singer and Co. keep saying that it's not a direct sequel - it lets them get away with this, whereas in strict continuity, it's a plot hole the size of Luthor's San Andreas.

Uhhh...I can't think of a clever title...Sorry!

Saw it last night with a crowd of people. I'd definitely give it **** 1/2 (out of *****) and plan on seeing again Friday night. Major props go out to Singer & Co. Great jobs, guys!

What did I think of Routh? From the moment he was announced back in late 2004, I had total faith in him. The more I've thought about it after seeing Superman Returns; he's to Christopher Reeve what Brosnan was to Connery. He was his own Superman and not a "good Reeve impression" like some have said. For me, Routh's finest moment in the film was ~~~~~SPOILERS! ! !~~~~~ when he sees Jason sleeping in bed and talks to him parrelling what Jor-El told him throughout the film. There's this warm and loving look on his face; just...moving.

The rest of the cast was solid; especially Spacey and James Marsden. Although I felt bad for James Karen getting cut out. But at least he was still featured in the opening title credits...

~~~~~SPOILERS! ! !~~~~~ My only real concern is Jason b/c when they get around to the sequel (supposedly for Summer 2009) Singer will have to re-cast the role. My guess is he'll either become a lesser character or killed off (since Luthor seems to know he's Superman's little boy!)

Absolutely, and I even find Ottman's original stuff to be showing up Williams in some respects. Especially the Luthor theme, which I find to be one of the best villain themes I've heard in some time. I bought the soundtrack yesterday and it's really quite amazing. I love the new personal theme he's built up for Superman. It really does have that sort of sad/hopeful hybrid going on, which I thought was perfect during the movie, with him having to deal with feeling left out of Lois's life, yet having to jump right back into Superman work. I forget the exact sequence, but I'm thinking it was right after he was spying on Lois's home life, then had to immediately fly up into space and get to work. I'm looking forward to him running with these themes he's set up as he's talked about in that interview someone posted. Really sucked to hear about how he'd been robbed of an X3 score that was going to build on his X2 stuff which he apparently intended as more of a setup theme.

I didn't find the last scene sappy at all. I love the son legacy that ties back to his own, though as I stated before I really don't want to see a mini-Superman. There's a lot of loss of legacy stuff that could be explored though. Hopefully they do something powerful with this in the sequel.

Only trash compactor# 3263827.

SUPERMAN RETURNS TO A CUSTODY HEARING

I liked that it it's a true love triangle. I mean, they decided to go that route, and didn't bitch out. For once, there's an actual conflict. At no point did Marsden's Richard White come off as anything but a great guy. He's supportive, confident, a great dad, basically, a human Superman. And then there's a Superman, all those things, but a god, in most respects. They didn't take the easy out. How much of a triangle is it if every member of the audience knows that one guy is a fucking jerk? It's a no brainer decision. This movie gives Lois an actual choice that I think she wrestles with. It's an element I'd like to see them explore, and a clever dynamic that they introduced.

If there's anything that would suck, it would be spending every other weekend at the Fortress of Solitude, with dad explaining how ice works.

Five years would probably be a lot of back child support, I don't care what kind of salary Kent's pulling down.

Cool...tell us how the date goes.

There is one thing about the "this is a pseduo-sequel to Part II" conceit that I find troubling (moreso than even the pregnancy thing)...

Supposedly, Superman leaves Earth for Krypton pretty much right after the events of Part II. However, in the last scene of that film he's on the roof of The White House apologizing to the President for being away during much fof the Zod carnage and promising (in the most earnest fashion possible), "I won't let you down again." And then he just ups and leaves the planet altogether? Eh...

Time for Clark to put in a call to "Maury." Gotta be sure.

Good one!

So I saw RETURNS again last night. Felt pretty much the same way about it. Some truly wonderful moments or elements of greatness wrapped up in kind of a dour, bloated, ill-conceived "requel" (as Moriarty appropriately called it in his AICN review.)

The only thing that made the experience more enjoyable on second viewing was the opening night madness of super-freaks screaming and cheering at everything. Maybe that's how Hollywood can make movies seem better and improve business: add the opening night geekapalooza equivalent of a laugh track to their films.

I'm glad some people are enjoying it though.

I was very crabby and frustrated by Superman Returns last night and couldn't form my thoughts into words. Now that I've had some time to let it all digest I'll give it a try. However, the time I've had didn't make the movie any better in my mind. There are so many things wrong I don't know where to start.

The pacing of the film...there's no flow to it. The first hour feels rushed. There's no time given to anything. The movie just jumps back and forth between Luthor's plan (I'll get to how ridiculous that was later) and little moments that don't amount to much. Clark makes a cameo on the farm, has a few lines of pitiful dialogue with his mother (terribly acted by the way), has a little flashback to his youth and the next thing you know the guy is back in Metropolis and gets his job back in a throw-away line. Even the first action scene is rushed. Supes has been gone for almost two decades so you would think the first shirt rip and "welcome back" would be iconic along with the music. It's not. It's a half second shirt rip and the next thing you know we have a pilot saying "we have an unidentified bogey coming". I thought the clips online were edited but it turns out they're not. It's those little things that irritated the hell out of me.

The musical score. This score (specifically the choir) just beats you over the head. You would think something epic was happening on screen when the choir kicked in but more often than not there wasn't and it made me chuckle to myself a couple of times. It was like the music was trying to make the action scenes more than they really were.

And speaking of the action....repetitive comes to mind. There's only so many times I can watch Superman catch or lift something before it starts to get stale. As the movie goes on he lifts heavier objects...great. I swear I almost think they repeated him catching some guy in the movie. The very hyped plane rescue was underwhelming to say the least. Honestly, most of the clips online are just about the entire sequence. I heard this scene was supposed to be 10+ minutes. Felt more like around 3 minutes. Most of the footage during that sequence is Lois and passengers bouncing around the plane. And then on top of that they have to ruin that scene with a line Christopher Reeve said 10x better.

Also this felt more like a natural disaster flick than a Superman movie. Those little crystals sure do cause plenty of trouble. There are more "tremor" scenes in Superman Returns than the Jurassic Park movies combined. You always know when something big was going to happen because you would see a closeup of a pencil holder or some random object shaking on the desk ad nauseum. The 3rd or 4th time I saw it (I seriously lost count) I was almost tempted to leave. I honestly couldn't believe the mediocrity I was watching.

Which leads me to Luthor's plan. One of the worst plans I've ever seen in a comic movie (topping Ra's magic microwave in Batman Begins). The bad part of this plan is it takes up so much of the damn movie. From the start this plan gets a lot of attention and it goes NOWHERE. By the time the third act rolls around (after Lex has executed his little plan) and you see Lex, Kitty and his henchmen sitting around on this desolate rock looking bored I wonder what the hell it was all for. They couldn't come up with anything better than this?

The performances....

Superman/Clark Kent - The performance of Routh was underwhelming and honestly I can't blame him. I blame the writers. Routh is given absolutely nothing to say as Superman or Clark Kent. He's just THERE. If the guy isn't staring or lifting something he's non-existent. Maybe they decided he couldn't act and scrapped his lines...I don't know. Anyway, how am I supposed to care for him? Lines like "Bye Lois", "I'm always around" is not what I call character building.

Lois Lane - She's given plenty to say...but her character was so cold throughout the whole film I honestly didn't give a damn about her either. She just has a *****y look about her that I couldn't warm up to. Her chemistry with Superman is nowhere to be seen. The only reason I can see Superman and Lois have a romantic history is because of the past movies.

Lex Luthor - Spacey sleptwalk through this movie...maybe because he can play this kind of character in his sleep. After all the (camp or menace) threads it turns out Lex is basically the same as Hackman. He has his Ms. Tesmacher 2.0, same wigs, same plan. The only difference is he gets his licks in on Superman. Their little showdown was a VERY underwhelming scene mainly because Superman stands there like a statue and says NOTHING before getting his ass kicked.

This post is getting long in the tooth so I'll just say the rest of the cast was adequate.

As far as the big revelation with the kid goes....honestly, I was so disgusted with S:R by the time it happened that I really just didn't care anymore.

Overall I would say this movie is a collosal failure on all levels. The only good thing I can say about Superman Returns is some scenes were very pretty to look at. That's about it.

This guy has me convinced. I'm burning my tickets along with the theater I was going to see it at.

Although I liked the film more than AJ, his comments reminded me of another big dissatisfaction I had with RETURNS. Luthor beats up Supes, stabs with the Krypto-shiv and leaves him for dead. Superman NEVER gets any kind of payback for that. He never even sees Lex again for the rest of the film. Not a very satisfying conclusion to such an extreme conflict.

The choir bits of the score definitely strayed into Ligeti/2001 territory more than once.

I don't really see Superman as someone who would need payback. He's not a revenge-driven character. He's there to help. Once he got rid of the island I figure that would be payback enough. Lex wanted that so bad he was willing to kill billions of people for it and Superman just sent it into a quiet little orbit. I can see where he'd get sufficient satisfaction out of that.

In the other films, Superman always had some kind of satisfactory closure against his nemesis. "He's there to help" is not his only duty. Don't forget justice. And justice was not served.

It's not that I was wanting payback, but I did want to see a resolution between them in some shape or form. There's a real lack of one last scene where Supes sends home the "fuck you" by rescuing Lex from the deserted island, then dropping him back off at prison.

What was the closure in Supes II? He just leaves Luthor to yammer in the Fortress.

That happens in the comics A LOT in regards to Luthor. He puts Superman in some dire situation (involving Kryptonite almost every time, of course) and he's gone by the time Supes is saved.

This aspect about the film didn't bother me at all personally.

Exactly. I'm not saying Supes had to physically abuse Lex for revenge. But the film desperately cries out for a final confrontation between the two, with Superman delivering justice to Lex in some form.

Amen to all of those. I've never been much of a Superman fan, but the shot of him pushing away what is, for all intents and purposes, his home planet, was beautiful.

Superman was a creepy stalker. But not in the elevator scene. Have you ever watched someone you love fly away on a plane? Stayed until the plane took off and finally disappeared completely? Same instinct. Wanting one last look. I felt it and believed it. It certainly didn't come off as peeping tom-ish.

Yeah, but as others often bring up in comic-to-film adaptation discussions, we're talking about the FILMS, not the comics. It's a different animal with different demands. It's not like the next film is going to come out next Wednesday, or in a month, or even in a year. I understand what you're saying but it still leaves a very unsatisfactory feeling in a film that seems so intent on satisfying.

I'm not reading through the rest of the thread, I just want to say that I thought this movie was just a dream. A beautiful, beautiful dream of a movie, and I'm in love with it more every time I think about it.

Bah. Not for me.

Besides, if anything, I'm honestly glad Singer and the writers decided to buck and eschew spme standard cinematic conventions to apparently err on the side of the source material.

It's the same thing with some of the repetitive action scenes. Lois in trouble. Superman arrives. Lifts something heavy. Repeat. Straight out of the Fleischer toons, serials, and original comics. And I LOVED that about this film. Whether or not that "bores" or bothers modern movie audiences (or another soul for that matter) did not even register on my radar.