SUPERMAN RETURNS: Post-release Discussion - Page 2

Post-release threads are always spoilerful, HollowBones.

I'd suggest not reading the Post Release discussion then. Spoilers come with the territory.

Now thats pretty funny...ha

Didnt realize this was the post-release, spoil away.

Guy? Superman is an alien. You mean to say "watch the alien fly around and save the girl." Save the word 'guy' for humans, please. I mean, would you say "let's just watch the guy swim around and eat the girl and Quint" about Jaws? I say this because you are posting on CHUD, now. You would do well to realize Superman is an alien. Nuff Said!

MattR's tag team review dupe thread brings up an important issue. Could the CHUD staffers please, please, please, please link directly to the relevant threads when they post an article? This is a serious shortcoming with the site. I'm not going to start ranting again about how diluted these forums are because of too many subcategories, but it's not always an easy proposition to find the appropriate thread if you want to comment on an article. And I've been here for years. Imagine those who are brand new to the site.

So, basically, I think there should be a thread for every single news item that's posted, and those news items should link directly to the thread on the "Discuss this sucker on the message boards" link.

Edit: This is actually done sometimes. I don't know if some posters are lazier than others and just link to the forums in general.

And perhaps news items that are just reviews (like the tag team one) could simply link to the post-release threads. They would be the exception - no new threads needed.

I agree with the above sentiments regarding thread links.

off topic, whoops.

Major spoiler in this post, so skip it if you're worried about that stuff.



A couple other things I meant to mention in my last post. Even though it's a redux of Williams's work, I don't think Ottman should be undersold here. It really feels like he's made it his own, and it's the classic superhero score that we've all been asking for with these recent superhero flicks. And I'm in agreement with whoever said they really enjoyed Superman's moment with Jason towards the end. Playing off of the Brando echos that were in the film, I think it works beautifully, and provides the emotional payoff for a Superman that's been left out of the relationship loop for the whole movie. It may be a bit overly obvious, but I like the parallel of the son being born with a godlike legacy while being raised by mortals. I'm not sure I'd like to see that carried out as a continued legacy though. I think I'd much prefer to see Superman handle a son's death and having that legacy taken away from him in a sequel. I'm interested to see where they take it though.

Regarding Matt R.'s comment, I disagree completely. A movie like this does have to be more than just that, and I think this film is. It could have been a bit more, but I think it faired pretty well in trying to handle some weighty themes.

One other thing I realized on reflection, is that Posey maybe deserved the Lois role. She didn't have a lot to do, but she made it count when she did. During the beatdown (which I thought was utterly fantastic and surprisingly gut-wrenching), I think her reactions amped up the emotional factor immensely. She had the kind of unspoken warmth going on that Lois really could have used to sell the relationship.

Oh, go away.

Do people even read this site or its boards before signing up and posting?

1. Pauline Kael

2. matt r.

Alien in tights, you mean.

Mr. Matt appears to be at the pre-emptive stages of film criticism. This is the part in our development where certain movies are critique proof. Let's give him some time though. I'm sure we will have him discussing the merits of Lance Henrikson's accents in short order.

I had to leave the country before I could really sum up my feelings in the tag team, but I think that the American Way omission is kind of a big deal. Superman is an immigrant character, and his story is a uniquely American one. I think it would have been nice to see the movie try to remind everyone that being American isn't a naturally bad thing, like being a German.

"In this larval stage, the young message board critic is a frightened, fragile creature, often resorting to whatever verbal weapons it can find, often juvenile and homophobic in nature, for protection, while its mother forages for life-sustaining porn in a nearby torrent site."

Y'know, cause costume design is SO political.

No, we just like movies too much to not analyze them.

Jesus Christ, do every one of you guys have to derail this thread responding to this guy?

Superman's main attachment may be to America, but "the American way" is still an incredibly narrow-minded statement for someone who stands up and fights for all the peoples of this world who wish for peace, not just America, whether we're right or wrong.

There's other ways to represent his home, his story, even his inherent pride in his home, without stamping it on his mission statement.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "American Way" wasn't added until the Cold War as bit of propaganda at the behest of the American government.

I agree with Devin. It's "American Way" in the idealistic "what America represented after WWII". It's since been adopted (and possibly/probably better served) by plenty of other cultures (which we distilled it from anyway) since that time period, but the term still stands. It's a part of Superman. He represents what America wants to represent. Not the government or the laws. The ideal.

But there's a difference between being American and standing for The American Way. "The American Way" can be very positive and/or very negative. "Truth" and "justice" are unambiguously positive things. The same can't be said for "The American Way."

Roger Ebert didn't like it:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...VIEWS/60606009

Once I read that he thought Superman II was "just about as good" as the first one, I knew I didn't need to read any more.

Dave Poland strikes back?

Fucking retards. I'm going to register as "Jesus Christ" and see what happens.

Those savages would crucify ya. I await the rimshot.

Just got back from the film, so I thought I'd quickly do a non spoiler review and quick summary. I'm seeing the film twice, one with friends the other in 3d imax.

Guys be very prepared to take this film as entertainment as the Donner version, because thats what it is, the Donner version with sfx. All the acting is fine, although Bosworth seems just a little off for someone of her stature in the film. Spacey pulls in a fine performance, but I'll get to a gripe later. Routh is the new Superman, no ifs or buts, nails the role just like Bale did for Batman Begins.

Let me go into what I liked. The score was great. Hybrid themes and the classical theme was the way to go and it works great. The SFX are spectacular. The opening credits are a real blast (heh you might get that if you've seen the film). The spirit of the film is dead on.

Now guys, there is stuff wrong with this film, and I have two words: plot holes. Thoughts are never fully carried through in the film. Things such as Superman's return seem plot devices to move to the next thing. Lex's plan is kinda iffy. While I like the homage, a better plan would of been nicer. Also the film starts to play EXACTLY like the Donner film. For some that might not be too bad, but it really dampens the modern aspect, esp some camp from Lex. The pacing is great, but the last 20 min feel a little off, like almost tacked on to finish the thoughts of the script that were ignored or setup the sequel.

In the end: B+ Superman folks, this is your daddy's superman. If you dig the donner cut of things, you'll like the movie, but theres a LOT of room for improvement.

Went in with an open mind, and this is an honest answer. There are moments of pure greatness in this movie, but plot holes really hurt the film, esp something when you learn the fate of Lois' kid.

Oh and I'm sure a lot of stuff could be answered in a sequel (oh its setup), but looking as a standalone film things end up confused.

I'll go into further detail later. The Chud review is pretty accurate to what I ended up feeling.

I just came back from seeing so here is my spoiler free summary.....but first a quick note to Brett Ratner.

THAT'S HOW YOU FUCKING DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I gotta say I loved this movie......As soon as the John Williams theme started I got chills......great opening credits that got applause from the crowd when the words "Superman Returns" came on the screen.

Kind of shocked at the low turnout for this advanced showing.....the theater I saw it at had it on two screens.....and the one I was in wasen't even half full......X3 was shown on 4 screens and had almost all of them full.....This could be another Batman begins where it starts slow and word of mouth gets it going.

I hope Brandon Routh doesn't have any plans for a while cause he nailed the part of Superman/Clark Kent....I swear he was channeling Chris Reeves.....actually the entire cast was great.....and Parker Posey just set the bar on Female criminal sidekicks.

Piano Scene......Biggest reaction from the crowd......Loved it.

Few complaints about this movie.....mostly the Luthor role and the drawn out ending(this was the opposite of X3 where it could have actually lost 10 or 15 minutes and wouldn't have missed a beat.

Dumbest comment of the night came from a guy who while walking out of the theater said "Dude it was a love story.....where the fuck was the action".....the looks this guy got from a dozen people was priceless.

Better than Batman Begins.....better than the Xmen movies.....Pretty much on the same level as the first Spiderman movie(by the way the trailer on the big screen was great and a number of people could be heard saying "I gotta wait another year for that.....damn"

Overall I would give this a 9 out of 10 and plan on seeing it again this weekend.

This movie fucking rocked.


I arrived home from the theater to find that my car had been towed because of some bullshit parking rule that I didn't know about. I have to pick it up tomorrow at 8:00 AM. I've had the last two work weeks from HELL. And I am still giddy about this awesome movie right now. Take that as you will.

Luthor's plan is idiotic, so he wants to make money in real estate? Can't we come up with something better for him to do?

The movie is beautiful, the effects are amazing (although some of the CG Superman stunts were off), but the story and length of the film just make it not be as fun as it should be.

The ending was horrible and incomplete, the big "revelation" in the movie is too obvious and I'm not sure if it's a great idea to include this in the first movie that restarts the franchise. Superman going back to Kripton's ruins is an interesting idea ... too bad is not really covered much here.

Lots of potential, lots of missed opportunities. Hopefully the sequel will be much better, and provide a better antagonist and some non idiotic motivations for him/her.

I loved it. Hell, I fucking adored it.

Maybe later on little things will get to me (why in the hell didn't anyone think about Clark while Superman was in traction?) but for now, I'm just basking in the glow of this movie, which was everything I wanted in a new Superman film.

But the next one - Kneel. You know who I'm talking about.

Is it really so easy to reduce Lex's plan to a real estate scam? We hear the lines about vehicles, weapons, etc. twice. I think there was a hint there. Lex wanted to be a Superpower. He wanted land, yes, and to force people to live on it. But there was more coming down the pipe for sure. The continent building was just a first step.

Saw it. Loved it. "Superman Returns" doesn't really touch the original, even though it pretty much xeroxes several key elements, but it is definitely a comfortable and impressive kinda-sorta part III.

The movie works, not everything in it is sold to perfection, as there are some naggingly loose threads that I didn't want to see, but as a Superman fan, if you can make me get all misty eyed over the boyscout (which I did) then you've earned my money.

I was truly choking back tears during the confrontation w/ Lex Luthor, and kind of got over the fact that I really wanted to see a lot more interaction between the two.

I'd say more, but it's very late, so I'm going to lie down and fall into a coma.

To me, it wasn't about a land deal at all. I don't think for a second that Lex gave a shit about who lived on his continent or not. Maybe that was something he wanted to sell to the tourists, but in reality, I think Lex just wanted to destroy Metropolis. He could have went anywhere in the world and dropped his crystal but he went by Metropolis. He wanted revenge for what had happened to him.

Now, none of this is said in dialogue (and I'm sure I'll be called to task for saying this because of that) but a lot of it for me is done in looks and a couple of words in passing. Lex wanted to do some damage to the country that put him in jail, and all the time he wanted them to know who was doing it. The key is what Noel Neill says at the beginning - that Lex had made mistakes but had built himself up. Lex's complex was that he wanted the rest of the world to know just who he was. Superman returning was just the cherry on his sundae.

The plan sounds ridiculous because it was ridiculous. Lex didn't want money. He wanted to be feared.

Fan-fucking-tastic entertainment. I doubted Routh when he was casted, but by golly did he nail it.

I think that's an excellent point. He's obviously consumed by the concept of real estate, and gives his plans impetus, but he's interested in acquiring power by fear, and his methodology is large scale environmental transformations - that's his medium.

Just got back from a packed IMAX 10 PM screening - loved it, loved it, loved it. Serious applause at the end, and great reaction at all the right spots. Everyone in my group really liked it, and the women LOVED it.

It felt long but I was never bored by this film. I thought it was a lot of fun and worked on so many levels. Everyone was perfectly cast (some will probably call blasphemy, but I think Routh deserves to stand right alongside Reeve; they're both perfect as Clark Kent and as Superman), Ottman's score was predictably beautiful, there were loads of iconic shots, and it was a thoughtful film when it came to notions of selfishness and selflessness.

And it also blows all the other Superman films away (not that such a task was all that difficult in the first place).

Superman Returns was WEAK. Every damn thing about this movie....the pacing, the performances (only Routh was adequate as Superman), the score (the way they beat you over the head with that damn choir, I thought I was watching the Omen), the action, beyond dull. The whole thing felt disjointed with no flow. Either scenes rushed by too fast or they drug on forever.

Went in spoiler and review-free. Loved it. Felt too short, if anything. Emotion, imagery, acting, all spot on. Loved the gentle, sometimes oddball pacing, the small treats, the attention to detail. The humor was fantastic. Routh, Bosworth, Spacey, the kid, the Planet staff, all impressive.

I was invested from first to last frame. Not one complaint. Contender for best superhero film. One of my favorite movies in some time.

--

Someone mentioned earlier that the 'revelation' was obvious. I don't think it was treated as a revelation at all, which impressed me deeply. Singer knew we knew. In the moments leading up to the piano-smash, we're WAITING for Jason to save his mother. We know he can. That scene is constructed on the assumption that we're not stupid.

Is Ebert unwell or something?

Not to be nit-pickey, but I don't understand how an alien race in a 10 billion year old solar system, doesn't know to get out of the way of their star when it goes red giant. Like they didn't know what was coming soon after? And they have space ships?

One alien made it?

I thought the same exact thing when I read his review.

Good point. I've yet to see the movie, but do they play up the "immigrant" subtext at all? Shame if not, as that would help to redefine what the "American Way" means

I think the problem is that WB needs this movie to do enormous business worldwide and, while the notion that "The American Way" can be a positive thing, in today's climate having a red, white and blue superhero who explicitly represents "the American Way" (and who inextricably links that way with the notions of truth and justice) is going to be a tough sell. Not to mention the possible problems of selling some US viewers on the idea of Superman as an immigrant.

It would be nice to reclaim the notion of Superman as standing for the very best ideals of America, but it's a hell of a time to try and do that - especially in an expensive blockbuster movie that can't afford to get bogged down in political analysis.

What I liked:

Most of the retro touches: whooshy credits, Brando, crystals

Langela.

Spacey when he was bad.

The "It's a bird..." joke

What I didn't like:

No less than three action sequences starting with close-ups of things jiggling on peoples' desks. Almost as bad as the repetitive hit-you-and-make-you-fly-backward stunts in X-Men.

The dialogue 'tributes', like Superman recycling his old air-travel statistics joke. Does he say that every time he saves someone from a crash?

Spacey when he was silly

Bosworth's lockjaw. You're a journalist. You work with words. ENUNCIATE!

"Wow, honey. Luthor just made a ridiculous educated guess about your parentage and then you threw a piano. Let us never speak of it again."

The music. Williams' themes (from what I think is his greatest score) were mangled into bloody chunks. It would have been better either to commit to an all-Williams approach or a completely original work. Ottmann's stuff was wallpaper.

Well saw it at midnight and I have to say I enjoyed it. Some things don't sit well with me (the kid and Bosworth in particular) but still it won me over with its classic style and its homage to the first two films.

Routh really did a wonderful job. Honestly I hope the film does well but I think it won't and Pirates will kill it. A shame really because i'm curious where Singer would take this in film two. If anything he proved he could up the ante with X2 and he'd do it with this as well.

Saying all that I felt a lump of coal in my stomach when I saw " A Jon Peters Production " credit show up on screen. It brought back the painful memories of what could have been. McG, Ratner, Bay, Burton, Nic Cage. I was pleased when Bryan Singer was hired as the director because I figured he'd remain true to Superman and make a classy film. He did and the movie is better for having him.

I felt the nostalgia of old as I heard the Williams/Ottman score and Routh won me over as soon as he entered that shuttle and did his " Planes are still the safest way to travel. " Reeve homage. I do have to agree with Nick though the film is full of holes.

I hope there is a sequel.

Yeah I got misty when the boyscout was wheeled into the hospital so it gets bonus points there.

I was thinking about the film, and I realized...I don't think I've ever seen a summer blockbuster that spent so much time being just, I don't know, lyrical and beautiful. Films are so determined to be breathless these days, but SR was full of wonder.

Wonder? Where, exactly?

On a semi-serious note, given the above, just how the fuck does Lois think she got pregnant?