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The Neoconservative drumbeat to war

post #1 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by New York Times
August 24, 2006
Some in G.O.P. Say Iran Threat Is Played Down

By MARK MAZZETTI
WASHINGTON, Aug. 23 — Some senior Bush administration officials and top Republican lawmakers are voicing anger that American spy agencies have not issued more ominous warnings about the threats that they say Iran presents to the United States.

Some policy makers have accused intelligence agencies of playing down Iran’s role in Hezbollah’s recent attacks against Israel and overestimating the time it would take for Iran to build a nuclear weapon.

The complaints, expressed privately in recent weeks, surfaced in a Congressional report about Iran released Wednesday. They echo the tensions that divided the administration and the Central Intelligence Agency during the prelude to the war in Iraq.

The criticisms reflect the views of some officials inside the White House and the Pentagon who advocated going to war with Iraq and now are pressing for confronting Iran directly over its nuclear program and ties to terrorism, say officials with knowledge of the debate.

The dissonance is surfacing just as the intelligence agencies are overhauling their procedures to prevent a repeat of the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate — the faulty assessment that in part set the United States on the path to war with Iraq.

The new report, from the House Intelligence Committee, led by Representative Peter Hoekstra, Republican of Michigan, portrayed Iran as a growing threat and criticized American spy agencies for cautious assessments about Iran’s weapons programs. “Intelligence community managers and analysts must provide their best analytical judgments about Iranian W.M.D. programs and not shy away from provocative conclusions or bury disagreements in consensus assessments,” the report said, using the abbreviation for weapons of mass destruction like nuclear arms.

Some policy makers also said they were displeased that American spy agencies were playing down intelligence reports — including some from the Israeli government — of extensive contacts recently between Hezbollah and members of Iran’s Revolutionary Guard. “The people in the community are unwilling to make judgment calls and don’t know how to link anything together,” one senior United States official said.

“We’re not in a court of law,” he said. “When they say there is ‘no evidence,’ you have to ask them what they mean, what is the meaning of the term ‘evidence’?”

The criticisms do not appear to be focused on any particular agency, like the C.I.A., the Defense Intelligence Agency or the State Department’s intelligence bureau, which sometimes differ in their views.

Officials from across the government — including from within the Bush administration, Congress and American intelligence agencies — spoke for this article on condition of anonymity because they were discussing a debate over classified intelligence information. Some officials said that given all that had happened over the last four years, it was only appropriate that the intelligence agencies took care to avoid going down the same path that led the United States to war with Iraq.

“Analysts were burned pretty badly during the run-up to the war in Iraq,” said Representative Rush Holt, a New Jersey Democrat who sits on the House Intelligence Committee. “I’m not surprised that some in the intelligence community are a bit gun-shy about appearing to be war mongering.”

Several intelligence officials said that American spy agencies had made assessments in recent weeks that despite established ties between Iran and Hezbollah and a well-documented history of Iran arming the organization, there was no credible evidence to suggest either that Iran ordered the Hezbollah raid that touched off the recent fighting or that Iran was directly controlling attacks against Israel.

“There are no provable signs of Iranian direction on the ground,” said one intelligence official in Washington. “Nobody should think that Hezbollah is a remote-controlled entity.” American military assessments have broadly echoed this view, say people who maintain close ties to military intelligence officers.

“Does Iran profit from all of this? Yes,” said Gen. Wayne A. Downing Jr., the retired former commander of the Special Operations Command and a White House counterterrorism adviser during President Bush’s first term. “But is Iran pulling the strings? The guys I’m talking to say, ‘no.’ ”

Many senior Bush administration officials have long been dismissive of the work of the intelligence agencies. Shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks, the Pentagon set up an office led by Douglas J. Feith, the Defense Department’s third-ranking civilian official at the time, that sifted through raw intelligence to look for links between terrorist networks and governments like Iraq’s.

In the months before the Iraq war, Vice President Dick Cheney made repeated trips to the C.I.A. and asked analysts pointed questions about their conclusions that Iraq had no direct ties to Al Qaeda. Both the Pentagon office and Mr. Cheney’s visits were roundly criticized, which is why officials said that policy makers were now being careful about circumventing the intelligence agencies to seek alternate analyses.

During his confirmation hearings in May, the director of the C.I.A., Gen. Michael V. Hayden, said he had been “uncomfortable” with the work of the Pentagon intelligence office.

The House Intelligence Committee report released Wednesday was written primarily by Republican staff members on the committee, and privately some Democrats criticized the report for using innuendo and unsubstantiated assertions to inflate the threat that Iran posed to the United States.

The report’s cover page shows a picture of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad of Iran speaking at a lectern that bears the message “The World Without Zionism.”

Page 3 of the report lists several public comments from Mr. Ahmadinejad, including his statement, “The annihilation of the Zionist regime will come. . . . Israel must be wiped off the map.”

Earlier this year, the intelligence agencies put new procedures in place to help avoid the type of analysis that was contained in the 2002 National Intelligence Estimate about Iraq and to prevent another “Curveball” — the code name of the Iraqi source who fed the United States faulty intelligence about Iraq’s biological weapons program. “I think that the intelligence community is being appropriately cautious,” said John E. McLaughlin, a former director of central intelligence.

“I think that what is going on is that people are holding themselves to a higher standard of evidence because of Iraq.”

Thomas Fingar, the deputy director of national intelligence for analysis, said analysts now had much more information about the sources of raw intelligence coming from the field.

“Analysts have to know more about the sources than was generally the case before the Iraq estimate,” Mr. Fingar said.

Analysts also are required to include in their reports more information about the chain of logic that led them to their conclusions about sensitive topics like Iran, North Korea and global terrorism — “showing your work,” as Mr. Fingar put it.

At the same time, Mr. Fingar dismissed the notion that intelligence analysts should try merely to connect random intelligence findings. “As a 40-year analyst, I’m offended by the notion of ‘connecting dots,’ ’’he said. “If you had enough monkeys you could do that.”

The consensus of the intelligence agencies is that Iran is still years away from building a nuclear weapon. Such an assessment angers some in Washington, who say that it ignores the prospect that Iran could be aided by current nuclear powers like North Korea. “When the intelligence community says Iran is 5 to 10 years away from a nuclear weapon, I ask: ‘If North Korea were to ship them a nuke tomorrow, how close would they be then?” said Newt Gingrich, the former Republican speaker of the House of Representatives.

“The intelligence community is dedicated to predicting the least dangerous world possible,” he said.

Some veterans of the intelligence battles that preceded the Iraq war see the debate as familiar and are critical of efforts to create hard links based on murky intelligence.

“It reflects a certain way of looking at the world — that all evil is traceable to the capitals of certain states,” said Paul R. Pillar, who until last October oversaw American intelligence assessments about the Middle East. “And that, in my view, is a very incorrect way of interpreting the security challenges we face.”
Where is the alternate theory that Dems (and smart Repubs) should be putting out? That Iran is pursuing nuclear technology so that they can sustain their economy through petroleum sales. The Neo-Con position wrt Iran needs to be rebuked based on the facts.

And the hyping of Ahmadnejad's Zionist comments is such a straw man.
post #2 of 31
U.S. = Isreal?
post #3 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus
Where is the alternate theory that Dems (and smart Repubs) should be putting out? That Iran is pursuing nuclear technology so that they can sustain their economy through petroleum sales. The Neo-Con position wrt Iran needs to be rebuked based on the facts.
No one's touting that theory because it's only a bonus to the actual reason they want it. Which just so happens to be why North Korea wanted it: Bargaining Strength.

Becomming a Nuclear power means that Iran has a real say in what does or doesn't happen in that region. It gives them a hardline defense against Israel and the U.S., and if anyone is really paying attention, China. Tough to get pushed around in world affairs when you're a member of the "End the Planet" club.

To say they want it for terrorist activity is reactionary Neo-Con posturing. To say they want it purely for peacful means is just naive.
post #4 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Death Surge
No one's touting that theory because it's only a bonus to the actual reason they want it. Which just so happens to be why North Korea wanted it: Bargaining Strength.

Becomming a Nuclear power means that Iran has a real say in what does or doesn't happen in that region. It gives them a hardline defense against Israel and the U.S., and if anyone is really paying attention, China. Tough to get pushed around in world affairs when you're a member of the "End the Planet" club.
That reason is a given, really. I never meant to imply that it was for purely peaceful means. But taking that into account, you have to look at what this baragining strength is for. If Iran is such a mouth-watering target for Israel, US and China, certainly they deserve the basic nation-state right to sovereignty (by means of nuclear power,) "Islamic fascists" or not.

I'm not trying to defend Iran here, just playing devil's advocate because taking a hard-line on Iran is a slippery-slope. There's a fine line that Bush and the apparatus of the US gov't under him, seems to be incapable of navigating. Demonizing Iran for no real good reason will not help geo-politics. Period.
post #5 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus
I'm not trying to defend Iran here, just playing devil's advocate because taking a hard-line on Iran is a slippery-slope. There's a fine line that Bush and the apparatus of the US gov't under him, seems to be incapable of navigating. Demonizing Iran for no real good reason will not help geo-politics. Period.
To me, the real problem here is not that anything that the Bush administration is saying is false. Although I'm skeptical that Pasdaran--the Iranian Revolutionary Guard--actually directs Hezbollah, it isn't any surprise that they're tied up together. I don't doubt that all of these groups--Pasdaran, Hezbollah, etc.--as well as plenty of people on the ground in the Middle East would like to see Israel destroyed.

The real problem is that we are being governed by an administration that has absolutely no notion of its own powers and responsibilities. It is incapable of anything other than the most heavy-handed diplomacy. It either dithers and does nothing, or overreacts with excessive violence. Now that they have put our military in a situation where it is stretched to the breaking point, I wonder that they can still continue on the same way that they have for the last six years. The bluster and stupidity that led up to Gulf War II was backed up with a powerful military. Now that's been frittered away. If we decide to stir up things with Iraq, if we skip past diplomacy and jump straight to shock and awe, we are going to be in a position so terrible as to make everyone nostalgic for the days when all we had on our plate was the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. All you folks out there of draftable age had better start getting in shape.
post #6 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nid Hog
Now that they have put our military in a situation where it is stretched to the breaking point, I wonder that they can still continue on the same way that they have for the last six years. The bluster and stupidity that led up to Gulf War II was backed up with a powerful military. Now that's been frittered away. If we decide to stir up things with Iraq, if we skip past diplomacy and jump straight to shock and awe, we are going to be in a position so terrible as to make everyone nostalgic for the days when all we had on our plate was the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan. All you folks out there of draftable age had better start getting in shape.
One thing I wonder about is the reaction of the American public.I'm sure there will be a group of naive,morons that line up to fight in Iran but I'm sure most of the public would reject it. The majority of Americans would,I hope anyway, react with a big F.U. to Bush starting another war. The only way to fight such a war would be a draft and I don't think Bush is so out of touch to realize that option would be political suicide right now.
post #7 of 31
Surely even the neocons aren't insane enough to start a full scale conflict with Iran now. It would be a disaster on so many levels. And the majority of the country doesn't even support Bush on Iraq anymore. Unless of course he's planning this as his sayonara "fuck you" to the American public.
post #8 of 31
Thread Starter 
Well, after the US and Israel lost this recent war with Hezbollah (which for all intents was a practice run for the Neo-Cons' war with Iran,) our "side" doesn't look very good or powerful. We're now 0 for 3.

Normally you'd be right that war with Iran would be a far off pipe dream since we have a wonderful system of checks and balances. These days, however, who knows? Especially if the Democrats don't win at least one house of Congress.

The tone of the rhetoric and the level of distortion is strikingly similar to the run-up to the Iraq War.
post #9 of 31
The Neoconservative ideology is probably the weakest it's been since its inception. Two central tenets that a.) democracy is a cure-all for volatile regions and b.) that the United States can easily spread peace through military might have been proven to be patently false. I honestly think one of the biggest blows to the Bush foreign policy came when Palestine elected Hamas as the defacto leader of the government. That move sort of proved to the policy's true believers that, no, it's not just a bunch of hot-head radicals in the minority - most of the population follows these groups more than their own established government, as once again illustrated by Hezbollah's influence. Given a democratic option, they will just vaunt our enemies into official positions of power.

Only the most delusional members of the administration have doggedly clung to the belief that the United States can freely shape the Middle East. We won't go to war with Iran (assuming they don't start something first) because we can't. It's obvious they were hoping to use Iraq as a wider base of operations within the region, a plan that was thwarted when it became evident that the country was not going to be secure within 2 years.

Neoconservatism is largely a dead ideology at this point. One just has to look at the fact that we've been pussy-footing around with Iran for almost a year now to see that the concept of force-first has fallen into disfavor with most of the Bush policy makers.
post #10 of 31
Thread Starter 
All those delusional people tend to be closest to the president. I know there are a lot of Republicans who know war with Iran is insane, but are they willing to do what is necessary to stop it should Bush choose to maintain the crazy? Nothing I've seen so far says yes.

I think the only way to be sure that Bush won't fuck the monkey is for Congress to revoke Bush's war powers (AUMF) but that would take some real political balls. That way if he wants to invade another country, he can't trot out Abu Gonzales and claim authority based on AUMF.
post #11 of 31
Most of the people in the White House aren't so delusional that they don't realize their own limitations. Even if they won't admit the war in Iraq has been a failure, the simple logistical and material aspects of launching another war while we're still fighting one make the act prohibitive.
post #12 of 31
So, what's next then?

I mean, it's gonna be really hard to Bush to let this one go, even if he can't logistically pull anything off. His policy since 9/11 has been to take the fight to anybody that has anything to do with terrorism, and he has consistently done that. Regardless of public opinion on the matter, regardless of international opinion, he has done that.

I think he'll go for it anyway...and that scares the crap out of me.

...so what do we do now?
post #13 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsYcHwArD101

...so what do we do now?
Watch this and feel worse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1j_GUvrysA
post #14 of 31
I've been reading the Art of War lately and its as if the USA government/military has intentionally decided to do the exact opposite of what this book says to do, at every available opportunity. Its quite bizarre.
post #15 of 31
Perhaps because following the Art of War would require reading?
post #16 of 31
I read somewhere that the US military does hand out Art of War to certain students or soldiers, etc. Guess there's just porn hidden inside or something.
post #17 of 31
The US Army version is a collection of Georgie's crayon tank drawings.
post #18 of 31
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werbal_Kint
Most of the people in the White House aren't so delusional that they don't realize their own limitations. Even if they won't admit the war in Iraq has been a failure, the simple logistical and material aspects of launching another war while we're still fighting one make the act prohibitive.
I hope you're right. There hasn't been much evidence that they've smartened up any. Or that reality has affected their agenda. Perhaps they're just carrying a big stick wrt Iran as a campaign issue. Regardless, its a reckless position since it escalates tension and virtually eliminates any diplomacy.
post #19 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murrow
The US Army version is a collection of Georgie's crayon tank drawings.
That's cute, but that's pretty far from the truth. I'm pretty sure that there are lots of young officers and nco's in Iraq who have read the Art of War and given it a lot of thought. What's more, I don't think that it's escaped them that the war is being fought the wrong way. If you want to see a good example of efforts to fight the war in a different way, have a look at T. X. Hammes' book, "The Sling and the Stone." Guys like Hammes knew the importance of a "hearts and minds" campaign, even if their neocon overlords didn't.

What's worse is that these neocons aren't necessarily idiots either, even if their mouthpiece W is. Somebody like Wolfowitz has a PhD in political science from the University of Chicago for God's sake. A lot these other guys are bright too. To me, there are two (well, there's probably a lot more) problems with them. The first is that they are totally dogmatic. They're sold on their ideological positions, and nothing (not even the collapse of their strategy in Afghanistan and Iraq) will convince them of their error. The second is that their positions are morally reprehensible. Their fanatical belief in the market and their absolute lack of compassion makes them perfect bedfellows for profiteering opportunists like Cheney and the cynical guys at Big Oil that they've linked up with. One group is happy with the way that things are going because they're raking in the money; the other group is happy because nothing could ever convince them that they'r wrong.
post #20 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Nid Hog
That's cute, but that's pretty far from the truth. I'm pretty sure that there are lots of young officers and nco's in Iraq who have read the Art of War and given it a lot of thought. What's more, I don't think that it's escaped them that the war is being fought the wrong way. If you want to see a good example of efforts to fight the war in a different way, have a look at T. X. Hammes' book, "The Sling and the Stone." Guys like Hammes knew the importance of a "hearts and minds" campaign, even if their neocon overlords didn't.
Wasn't intended as a crack at the soldiers' expense, but at the philosophy that sent them to war in the first place. My apologies.
post #21 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Werbal_Kint
Most of the people in the White House aren't so delusional that they don't realize their own limitations. Even if they won't admit the war in Iraq has been a failure, the simple logistical and material aspects of launching another war while we're still fighting one make the act prohibitive.
I wish that I could feel so sure about that. After all, they took on this war in Iraq despite the advice of senior commanders and in the face of much evidence that their strategies wouldn't work as they hoped. On top of that, they've made the situation with Iran so much worse because of their own stupidity that they have an even greater incentive to worry about them (although I'm sure that the irony is lost in the neocon lunchroom). I would bet that a lot of people are advocating taking on the Iranians before we're faced with Persian hegemony of the "Islamic fascism" in the middle east. Minimally, I bet that they're calling for coordinated intensive bombing and missle attacks.
post #22 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murrow
Wasn't intended as a crack at the soldiers' expense, but at the philosophy that sent them to war in the first place. My apologies.
Not necessary--I just thought that it was surprising that so many comments in a row made it seem like the soldiers in Iraq are probably too stupid to know what's going on.

I think that it makes the situation more complicated and more difficult to understand when you acknowledge that they do know what's going on. I read an interesting book a year or so ago that took up the same idea with Japanese kamikaze pilots during WWII (The book is "Kamikaze, Cherry Blossoms and Nationalisms" by Emiko Ohnuki-Tierney). One of the fascinating things that she brought out was that these pilots were nothing like the suicidal emperor-obsessed zealots that most people think that they were (check the History Channel some night for that version--it usually comes on after a show about Roswell or the biography of some Nazi). Most of them were intelligent, highly educated and politically aware. They had their reasons for doing what they did, but they weren't fooled by the ideology.

In fact, that makes me more pessimistic about our current situation. If we assumed that people just didn't know what was going on, then there's some hope that they'll try to change things if they do eventually figure it out. But if they know what's up all along and still feel constrained to follow along, it'll be a lot longer before we can expect a real groundswell of resistance that will get us out of Iraq and throw the neocons out on their asses.
post #23 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by cognizant
I've been reading the Art of War lately and its as if the USA government/military has intentionally decided to do the exact opposite of what this book says to do, at every available opportunity. Its quite bizarre.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun Tzu
There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.

In war, then, let your great object be victory, not lengthy campaigns.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bush
I'm gonna send 20,000 more troops to Iraq!!!
...
post #24 of 31
...the Roman Empire?
post #25 of 31
The Roman Empire had lots of small wars which kinda merged into a collective centuries old campaign.
post #26 of 31
The only difference is that the Roman Empire's warfare actually accomplished tangible results.
post #27 of 31
Destroying entire populations, salting the earth, and bringing back all remaining survivors as slaves to march through Rome along with piles of chopped-off heads and dicks for the victory parade does work pretty damn well. But there's a reason we don't operate like that anymore, and a lot of reasons Rome deserved what it got in the end.
post #28 of 31
Thread Starter 
Team Bush may not have read Sun Tzu, but they definitely have read their Macchiavelli.
post #29 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pop Zeus
Team Bush may not have read Sun Tzu, but they definitely have read their Macchiavelli.
Truth in those words.
post #30 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stormin
Destroying entire populations, salting the earth, and bringing back all remaining survivors as slaves to march through Rome along with piles of chopped-off heads and dicks for the victory parade does work pretty damn well. But there's a reason we don't operate like that anymore, and a lot of reasons Rome deserved what it got in the end.
I have a feeling that a sizable chunk of the Neocons wouldn't object too harshly if this happened in Iraq.
post #31 of 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelios
I have a feeling that a sizable chunk of the Neocons wouldn't object too harshly if this happened in Iraq.

You mean it is not yet? What the death toll up now?
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