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Franchises that Wasted their Talent - Page 2

post #51 of 67
9/27/06 at 5:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by newcomb02
The Warriors of the early nineties with RUN TMC. Hardaway, Richmond, Mullin, plus they had C Webb as a youngster. If they kept this team together they would have been SCARY GOOD.
mitch was already gone by the time they had webber, and mullins and hardaway were routinely missing 20 games a year because of injuries by the time webber was rookie of the year. in fact, webbers first year was the year of latrell and cwebb, run tmc was done a long time before that.
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post #52 of 67
9/27/06 at 5:33pm
1980s Atlanta Hawks - Over 50 win team,that just could not get over the hump

Utah Jazz- They had so many opportunities in the Malone/Stockton era. I remember in 1988,they took the LA Lakers to Game 7 off the 2nd round.
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post #53 of 67
9/27/06 at 5:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by heLL pAso
Elbowing and pushing are two separate things. Jordan's left arm was out to his left (not straight forward), while his hand was on Russell's ass and Jordan flicked it, pulled the ball back and well you know the rest.
So, Michael Jordan shoved a professional athlete to the floor with his arm straight, while he was running and dribbling? Riiiight.

He had his hand on Russell's ass because in the sport of basketball you keep your free hand out in front while driving in order to keep out the hands of your defender.

Also, if he would have used his body to push Russell to the floor, he would've also kept moving forward. You can't stop intertia.
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post #54 of 67
9/28/06 at 5:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoNkaholic
I look at that more along the lines of Franchise that Wasted their Money.
ARod was overpaid. That said, they didn't go anywhere more due to the likes of Chan Ho Park, Jay Powell, and Todd Van Poppel. Here's some of the 2003 team's payroll.

Alex Rodriguez $ 22,000,000
Juan Gonzalez $ 13,000,000
Chan Ho Park $ 13,000,000
Carl Everett $ 9,150,000
Rafael Palmeiro $ 9,000,000
Ugueth Urbina $ 4,500,000
Jay Powell $ 3,250,000
Ismael Valdez $ 2,500,000
Todd Van Poppel $ 2,500,000

There's got to be about $30 to $40 million overspent before you even get to ARod.
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post #55 of 67
9/29/06 at 9:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttenberg Fan Club
So, Michael Jordan shoved a professional athlete to the floor with his arm straight, while he was running and dribbling? Riiiight.

He had his hand on Russell's ass because in the sport of basketball you keep your free hand out in front while driving in order to keep out the hands of your defender.

Also, if he would have used his body to push Russell to the floor, he would've also kept moving forward. You can't stop intertia.
You obviously forget what happened during the play. Jordan didn't send Russell to the floor. Russell was running hard when Jordan drove to the basket. Jordan's hand was on Russell's ass. Simultaneously, he flicked his wrist (you don't need an elbow to do this) sending Russell's momentum further, separating the two, while he crossed the ball over to his left hand, backward. Russell then tried to recover but slipped on his way back. It wasn't much of a push but it was enough, with momentum added into the equation, to separate the two and allow Jordan the wide open jumper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8PAxfDsKjc
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post #56 of 67
9/29/06 at 9:21am
The way things are looking, let me add the Tampa Bay Buccaneers under Gruden's watch. Two playoff appearances in five seasons with the roster they have is just wrong.
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post #57 of 67
9/29/06 at 9:27am
Their offense sucks and their elite defenders are either gone or old. I think you're giving their roster talent far too much value.
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post #58 of 67
9/29/06 at 9:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by heLL pAso
Their offense sucks and their elite defenders are either gone or old. I think you're giving their roster talent far too much value.
The two post-Super Bowl teams weren't that old, and you can do a lot worse than Pittman and Alstott in your backfield. Hell, take it back to the Dungy years and this team has squandered about a decade's worth of talent.
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post #59 of 67
9/29/06 at 10:01am
I'd agree on the Dungy years but definitely not with Gruden. He only really had them in their prime for 2 seasons. The year after the Super Bowl was really the only major waste where you would have expected them to make a serious run to the Super Bowl. The next three years, did anybody really believe they were an elite team? I think not. Even last year, most people didn't think they'd make the playoffs. The consensus was the Panthers and Falcons were the top 2 teams in the South. I even remember the Bucs thread last year where most of their fans were optimistic for the future but they never believed they'd win the division. So if anything they played over their heads last year. Not many teams with elite defenses and crappy offenses win multiple Super Bowls in a short span anyways. The Bucs should be thankful they won one.
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post #60 of 67
9/29/06 at 11:22am
I blame Martin Gramatica.
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post #61 of 67
9/29/06 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by heLL pAso
You obviously forget what happened during the play. Jordan didn't send Russell to the floor. Russell was running hard when Jordan drove to the basket. Jordan's hand was on Russell's ass. Simultaneously, he flicked his wrist (you don't need an elbow to do this) sending Russell's momentum further, separating the two, while he crossed the ball over to his left hand, backward. Russell then tried to recover but slipped on his way back. It wasn't much of a push but it was enough, with momentum added into the equation, to separate the two and allow Jordan the wide open jumper.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E8PAxfDsKjc
Flicking his wrist...Michael Jordan flicked his wrist on a 200 lb professional athlete giving him 5 feet of room to shoot. Good shit, man.

It was a move. Andre the Giant didn't have enough power in his wrists to move someone with the flick of it. MJ certainly didn't. It was a clean play. That's it. Jordan pushed people off him ALL THE TIME. He got the benefit of the doubt 99% of the time. Hell, guys were called for fouls on him as they were watching him blow past him untouched. That last play, however, was clean. It's a funny story to say that his last shot encapsulated his whole stance as 'above the law', but it's just not true. The greatest b-ball player of all time made a move that fooled someone. He did that a lot, too.
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post #62 of 67
9/29/06 at 9:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttenberg Fan Club
Check out a video on youtube and you'll see that during the play, MJ actually had is left arm out straight, not bent inward, thus not allowing him to give the ol' elbow shove.
You're somewhat insane, nobody was saying he elbowed him first of all, it was a push with the hand. And you're telling people to look at the video to see his arm was straight? His arm was obviously bent, bent a lot actually. Pause this youtube link at the 6 second mark, then consider killing yourself.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5V_cPLHG6k

With that said I do think that the push was light enough to be a good no call. Reggie Miller pushed MJ about 50 times harder to get open to win a playoff game once so it goes both ways at least a little bit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin
I'm going to toss out the Milwaukee Braves. Three Hall of Famers, and nothing borderline about the three, in Aaron, Matthews, and Spahn, some more good players, led the league in attendance a few years, and yet could manage only two pennants and one World Series win. Granted, the post-integration pre-expansion NL was really tough, but still.

In the same measure, the late 90s Mariners. Randy Johnson, ARod, Ken Griffey Jr., and Edgar Martinez really should have dominated more. Certainly management is to blame for things like a bad bullpen and some disasterous trades (Varitek and Lowe for Heathcliff Slocumb is an all time classic bad trade).

Those are really good ones. I was alsways baffled by the 90s Mariners not being World Series contenders, let alone having bad records.
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post #63 of 67
10/1/06 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttenberg Fan Club
Flicking his wrist...Michael Jordan flicked his wrist on a 200 lb professional athlete giving him 5 feet of room to shoot. Good shit, man.
You really don't understand physics. If someone is running and they're pushed even a tiny bit it's gonna prevent them from stopping, sending them forward due to momentum. It doesn't take a bulldozer to move someone.

Quote:
It was a move. Andre the Giant didn't have enough power in his wrists to move someone with the flick of it. MJ certainly didn't. It was a clean play. That's it. Jordan pushed people off him ALL THE TIME. He got the benefit of the doubt 99% of the time. Hell, guys were called for fouls on him as they were watching him blow past him untouched. That last play, however, was clean. It's a funny story to say that his last shot encapsulated his whole stance as 'above the law', but it's just not true. The greatest b-ball player of all time made a move that fooled someone. He did that a lot, too.
Where did I say Jordan never pushed people? Everyone with half a brain knew he got away with murder. You can't somehow evaporate a play because Jordan pushed people ALL THE TIME. I haven't even once mentioned if it should have been called a foul because for one that kinda shit doesn't get called that often let alone against Jordan. I'm talking about your total confusion whether or not Jordan gave "the ol' elbow shove". That for one proves your memory loss towards the play because nobody in the world has ever accused Jordan of elbowing Russell. By the way, Jordan is my favorite player of all time so i'm not some Jordan hater who's trying to take a few pegs off of his greatness because of a posisble ticky tac call. Sorry, i'm just not blinded by love.
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post #64 of 67
10/2/06 at 11:19am
Neither am I. Fuck Jordan. But flicking a wrist isn't a foul. A rookie wouldn't get called for flicking a wrist, and if that's what you're trying to hang your arguement on, just let it go.
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post #65 of 67
10/2/06 at 2:13pm
At least he's not fantasizing about the "ol' elbow shove." But yeah, good no call.
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post #66 of 67
10/3/06 at 3:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvilTwin
ARod was overpaid. That said, they didn't go anywhere more due to the likes of Chan Ho Park, Jay Powell, and Todd Van Poppel. Here's some of the 2003 team's payroll.

Alex Rodriguez $ 22,000,000
Juan Gonzalez $ 13,000,000
Chan Ho Park $ 13,000,000
Carl Everett $ 9,150,000
Rafael Palmeiro $ 9,000,000
Ugueth Urbina $ 4,500,000
Jay Powell $ 3,250,000
Ismael Valdez $ 2,500,000
Todd Van Poppel $ 2,500,000

There's got to be about $30 to $40 million overspent before you even get to ARod.
When I said waste, to be perfectly honest, it had very little to do with the amount of money and everything to do with what they spent it on.

The Texas Rangers had no business signing Alex Rodriguez.
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post #67 of 67
10/3/06 at 1:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guttenberg Fan Club
Neither am I. Fuck Jordan. But flicking a wrist isn't a foul. A rookie wouldn't get called for flicking a wrist, and if that's what you're trying to hang your arguement on, just let it go.
I never said it was a foul, I never said it was a foul, I never said it was a foul...
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