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Civil War #4

post #1 of 94
9/23/06 at 3:36pm
Thread Starter 
Anybody else read this issue?

I'm enjoying this series, but it's truly establishing Iron Man as a Marvel villian. If he's not mind controlled or just drunk again, I don't see how this character can gain any symphaty from anybody anymore. Him and Reed Richards specifically.
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post #2 of 94
9/23/06 at 4:15pm
#4 is also painting Captain America as a fanatic.
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post #3 of 94
9/23/06 at 4:44pm
I thought it was good, but Thor being a clone I didn't really like that.
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post #4 of 94
9/23/06 at 7:07pm
Goliath, we hardly knew ye.
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post #5 of 94
9/23/06 at 8:18pm
Oh, come on. You had to know Goliath was gonna buy it once you saw such a second-string character appear in Marvel's biggest event epic in years.
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post #6 of 94
9/23/06 at 8:35pm
The plotline is solid, but all of the CW characters suffer from Millar's dialogue, which is maybe the worst next to Kirkman's.

Some of the supporting titles, though, like Daredevil and Wolverine, are top-notch right now.
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post #7 of 94
9/23/06 at 9:05pm
While I like the series, the characterizations are crap. Iron Man and Reed are now "evil" for all intent and purposes. I keep reading articles on Newsarama where the editors and writers say that you can't judge either side yet and that while they knew the anti-regs would appeal most to the fanbase that they would be fair. Bullshit. What a waste. Unless Marvel pulls a fast one (Scarlet Witch can erase the world!) the repurcussions from this will suck.

And Clor? Fuck that. I love Millar 90% of the time, but damn am I sick of clones. That is just weak.

JS
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post #8 of 94
9/23/06 at 9:11pm
I don't see any of them as evil although I totally disagree with their point of view. They suffer from righteous blindness. That kind of thing that comes where you believe you're right and that you know what's best for everyone and you violently oppose anyone opposing you.

Both sides in this thing are suffering from the same affliction, the winner being the one who can temper it with some common sense.
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post #9 of 94
9/23/06 at 10:16pm
What was with Clor getting the Black and Decker lobotomy? Were they putting him out of commission so they could clone a more reliable version?
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post #10 of 94
9/23/06 at 11:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by chenzzo
I don't see any of them as evil although I totally disagree with their point of view. They suffer from righteous blindness. That kind of thing that comes where you believe you're right and that you know what's best for everyone and you violently oppose anyone opposing you.

Both sides in this thing are suffering from the same affliction, the winner being the one who can temper it with some common sense.
That looks like a tall order, right now. Cap's probably ready to overthrow SHIELD and the US government in order to get a clean shot at Hill, and Stark and Richards are already looking at Thor Clone Model 2.0.

But what happens when Beta Ray Bill - slated to join the upcoming Omega Flight - finds out what they've done?
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post #11 of 94
9/24/06 at 2:04am
I think Millar's forgotten that this isn't Ultimates world. Unless some arch-villain is manipulating everyone's personality (which, hell, might be the case), I've never seen such a mishandling of established characters.
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post #12 of 94
9/24/06 at 2:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JudgeSmails
While I like the series, the characterizations are crap. Iron Man and Reed are now "evil" for all intent and purposes. I keep reading articles on Newsarama where the editors and writers say that you can't judge either side yet and that while they knew the anti-regs would appeal most to the fanbase that they would be fair. Bullshit. What a waste. Unless Marvel pulls a fast one (Scarlet Witch can erase the world!) the repurcussions from this will suck.

And Clor? Fuck that. I love Millar 90% of the time, but damn am I sick of clones. That is just weak.

JS
Your avatar is teh hott. Nothing else to post here.
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post #13 of 94
9/24/06 at 4:17am
Unless there is some revelation forthcoming re: mindcontrol (which would be a huge cop-out, I feel), Millar's handling of Tony (and to a lesser extent, Reed) has been extremely out of character with what's been portrayed in the past. I mean, it's one thing to defend an act/government program that you feel is right and true, but it's another thing entirely to send homicidal clones and armies of supervillains out against those who disagree.

And Devin's right, Captain America is acting pretty loopy as well.

I hope there's no big "GOTCHA BITCH!" moment wherein the Purple Man or someone is pulling the strings (though there is that annoying "Hatemonger" rumor from around when issue #1 came out...)
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post #14 of 94
9/24/06 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madman Mundt
I think Millar's forgotten that this isn't Ultimates world. Unless some arch-villain is manipulating everyone's personality (which, hell, might be the case), I've never seen such a mishandling of established characters.
Stark, especially, is pretty much a clone of his Ultimates incarnation.
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post #15 of 94
9/24/06 at 7:55am
I might be wrong, but I believe when the FF were dealing with a similar Registration Act at some point during the 90's run of the series Reed was absolutely against it.
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post #16 of 94
9/24/06 at 4:07pm
Thread Starter 
Clor isn't out of comission, according to some newsarama interview it seems he'll be around for the rest of this series and afterwards.

Yeah they show Cap a bit off, but that almost seems like a way of balancing the sides, and there is no balance. Stark and Richards are sending heroes to some other-dimensional prision (how come they never did this with the supervillians?) and they're cloning heroes.

If that's not enough, they are employing the most dangerous criminals to capture said heroes. Again, great story, very interesting, but wow who could ever root Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic after this?
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post #17 of 94
9/24/06 at 4:17pm
a) Clone Thor wasn't supposed to kill anyone. There was something wrong with it, and they feel bad about it.

b) The supervillain stuff is based on the real world - the OSS worked with the Mafia in WWII to keep our docks free of Nazi influence.

c) The biggest problem with the series is that it's impossible to look at the registration act the way it's meant to be looked at - from a real world POV. When I read Marvel Comics I am very much a Libertarian. But if this was real life I would be all about registration. These guys are dangerous and can't be held accountable. Maybe this would have worked better in the Ultimate Universe, which deals with these characters more realistically, but I like what Millar is trying to do.
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post #18 of 94
9/24/06 at 4:17pm
I have a feeling Mr. Fantastic will switch sides at some point. And Clor will be struck down by the real Thor whenever they relaunch his title.
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post #19 of 94
9/24/06 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
c) The biggest problem with the series is that it's impossible to look at the registration act the way it's meant to be looked at - from a real world POV. When I read Marvel Comics I am very much a Libertarian. But if this was real life I would be all about registration. These guys are dangerous and can't be held accountable..
admittedly i haven't read 4 yet, but isn't this a good thing, a more complex big crossover?
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post #20 of 94
9/24/06 at 5:23pm
Thread Starter 
Clone Thor wasn't supposed to kill anybody, but you wonder if his side was even paying attention to him before he offed Goliath, he was telling them they were going to die. That should have set some alarm bells early on.

Richards just looks really bad in this series, specially in this last issue. Not only does he screw up big time with the clone Thor, he's then tweaking him like some kind of machine in a lab and then questioning people's loyalty at a funeral he's responsible for.

The other stuff with Iron Man is also pretty creepy, with him keeping DNA from his teammates around in case he needs to clone them? And him tapping into Spiderman's powers without his consent...
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post #21 of 94
9/24/06 at 5:43pm
They're trying to Batman-up Iron Man, obviously. Obviously we're supposed to see that Reed is kind of losing it - it's part of the point. The trust is breaking down.

What needs to happen to even things up is Cap needs to do a terrorist attack on a SHIELD facility.
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post #22 of 94
9/25/06 at 12:29am
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
They're trying to Batman-up Iron Man, obviously. Obviously we're supposed to see that Reed is kind of losing it - it's part of the point. The trust is breaking down.

What needs to happen to even things up is Cap needs to do a terrorist attack on a SHIELD facility.
Unfortunately, most fans wouldn't recognize it as an actual terrorist act since they can't even recognize the anti-registration heroes for the criminals they are. Unjust or not, it's the law and they are breaking it. I'm on their side, but I wasn't too shocked one of them got killed.

I can also guarantee that no innocents will be harmed with Cap in charge of such a terrorist attack or there will be major hell to pay. If they pushed the character that far, I think that'd be sort of the point of no return for him.
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post #23 of 94
9/25/06 at 10:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smeagol
Unfortunately, most fans wouldn't recognize it as an actual terrorist act since they can't even recognize the anti-registration heroes for the criminals they are. Unjust or not, it's the law and they are breaking it. I'm on their side, but I wasn't too shocked one of them got killed.
But then we'd have to go into that old George Washington/Luke Skywalker was a terrorist. Captain America is a terrorist if you agree that the Registration Act is right. If not he's a freedom fighter.
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post #24 of 94
9/25/06 at 11:14am
Keep your eyes on Miriam Sharpe.
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post #25 of 94
9/25/06 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Savage
But then we'd have to go into that old George Washington/Luke Skywalker was a terrorist. Captain America is a terrorist if you agree that the Registration Act is right. If not he's a freedom fighter.
You're right.

I guess the real issue is that most fans have sided with Cap so of course they interpret the events like this.
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post #26 of 94
9/25/06 at 11:58am
Thread Starter 
How can people not side with Cap when the other heroes are acting like typical comic book villians? Is there even a choice?
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post #27 of 94
9/25/06 at 12:18pm
McNiven is the best thing about this book. He has made this book. The more I think of it, the more I wish DC had just let Phil Jiminez do all of IC instead of getting page fill-in artists.

Anyway. I have a sneaky suspiscion that Brucony Stayne the Iron Batman is going to sic his new Thunderbolts on Spider-Man in issue 5, and it won't be them going after him on their own.
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post #28 of 94
9/25/06 at 2:14pm
Agree on McNiven. I love the art on this series, though I agree that many of the main Marvel characters are being written completely against character and their history just to move events forward. It's very inorganic.

They can pretend to not be playing favorites, but it's obvious they are, and are stacking the deck completely in the favor of the anti-reg.

Like Devin, I feel the politics are bassackwards (I discussed that in the Frank Miller thread in Main a while back) from the POV of the writers.

But the art is there, and it's hard to go wrong with Captain America on the loose. Even if they are raping Reed and Stark to get it done.
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post #29 of 94
9/25/06 at 2:51pm
Either way, this is the most interesting Reed Richards and Tony Stark have been in a LONG time.
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post #30 of 94
9/25/06 at 4:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boomstick
Either way, this is the most interesting Reed Richards and Tony Stark have been in a LONG time.
That is true, these have always been pretty boring characters for me. Now they're evil and interesting.
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post #31 of 94
9/25/06 at 4:23pm
I don't even see them as evil, and I'm pretty much 100% against them.

I think they're just so misguided and self-righteous they've lost it.
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post #32 of 94
9/25/06 at 4:38pm
If you don't side with Cap you're un-American. Hell, America is in his name. Maybe Starks been hitting the sauce alittle too much lately.
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post #33 of 94
9/25/06 at 4:48pm
I honestly don't see how they're "evil."
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post #34 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:11pm
Thread Starter 
Maybe that's too strong of a word, and I'm not up on the latest bio-ethics of the Marvel Universe, but wouldn't cloning teammates, and specially a "God" be considered a bad thing? Specially if they just treat him like a weapon and "tweak" him like it was some type of machine?
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post #35 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica
Maybe that's too strong of a word, and I'm not up on the latest bio-ethics of the Marvel Universe, but wouldn't cloning teammates, and specially a "God" be considered a bad thing? Specially if they just treat him like a weapon and "tweak" him like it was some type of machine?
depends if you think the end justifies the means in this instance. the aim is to enforce the registration act, and clone thor wasn't meant to be a killer.
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post #36 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:22pm
And it isn't like cloning is some cutting edge tech in that universe.
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post #37 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 
Not that it's cutting edge, since this is a universe were time travel is a casual thing, just that cloning a dead teammate to use as a weapon is kind of unsettling. Maybe it's been done before, just seems ... wrong ...

And it also seems there's more "cloning" in this 50 state initiative thing.
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post #38 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:27pm
This is one of the problems with this story in the Marvel Universe - they would have such a different set of ethical guidelines for this stuff that it's not funny. The troubling part wouldn't be the cloning, I think, but the fact that it's some kind of a mind-controlled clone.
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post #39 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:37pm
its probably more ethically dubious to be setting a bunch of bad guys loose as a weapons than the cloning thing.
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post #40 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:40pm
I don't think so as, again, the OSS did essentially that same thing in WWII. Hell, if you looked at who the "independent contractors" - aka mercenaries - in Iraq are today, I bet you'd find some unsavory types in there.

The problem is that Millar is going anti-Suicide Squad here, at least judging by that last page of #4 - these villains are OBVIOUSLY waiting for a chance to wreak havoc.
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post #41 of 94
9/25/06 at 5:45pm
Thread Starter 
If the cover is any indication, they chose villians who are part of the Rogue's gallery's of the hero they are hunting down ...

http://www.dynamicforces.com/images/civilwar5.jpg

But yeah, I'm more troubled by the mind controlled Thor. That just seems more like something that would be ok in the "Ultimates".
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post #42 of 94
9/25/06 at 10:34pm
I think the problem with clone Thor is it disrespects the real Thor to a lot of fans and characters. It's not the clone-weapon thing really, although the fact they CLONED A GOD is scary in terms of what they're capable of.

Also, I guarantee the 'New Thunderbolts' will break off their leash and it'll cause a great shift in who's on what side. Just look at the cover to Civil War 5. Whether Spidey switches or not (SPOILERHEDOESSPOILER) the way he's getting ravaged by them will polarize all the right people.
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post #43 of 94
9/25/06 at 11:04pm
I'm not totally up on my Thor...when Reed (I think) asks if they needed a Donald Blake to keep him in check, I got confused...wasn't Blake just Thor's cover persona? Was he actually a guy that Thor was fused with, a la Rick Jones/Captain Marvel?
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post #44 of 94
9/25/06 at 11:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PodBayDoor
I'm not totally up on my Thor...when Reed (I think) asks if they needed a Donald Blake to keep him in check, I got confused...wasn't Blake just Thor's cover persona? Was he actually a guy that Thor was fused with, a la Rick Jones/Captain Marvel?
I believe so.

I forgot to mention to you guys that the REAL Thor will probably be showing up in the story at some point considering Tom Brevoort* confirmed that it was NOT the clone Thor who retrieved Mjolnir in one of the Fantastic Four Civil War tie-ins.

My bet is he'll show up to support the Anti-Registration heroes and beat the shit out of 'Clor'.

Also, does anyone else not think this series is great for discussion at the very least? The sheer amount of debate on almost every little point is par-for-the-course with comic fans, but it's so much more interesting than usual. I think Civil War's proving to be a huge success, even among its detractors whether they realize it or not.

*I'm pretty sure it was him. Could be wrong. I've been reading about this story for so long that I forget who said what. SOMEBODY official confirmed it was NOT 'Clor' who picked up Mjolnir.
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post #45 of 94
9/26/06 at 5:03pm
SPOILERS

Speaking of returning villains, one rumour is that a fella named Fisk will offer Stark information on Cap's bases in return for a pardon and other goodies.
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post #46 of 94
9/26/06 at 7:56pm
Just what IS the Fifty State Initiative? I haven't been able to figure this. Is it the villains plan? Is it the idea that Tony Stark can essentially clone all anti-registrants? And why are they calling this prison the "42" prison?

In the final panel of the last issue, can anyone name all the villains? I caught Bullseye and Venom and I think Jack O'Lantern... is that Moon Knight? Who are those guys?
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post #47 of 94
9/26/06 at 9:41pm
Final page villains were: Jack O' Lantern, Venom, Bullseye, Lady Deathstrike, The Taskmaster, Songbird and I'm blanking on the dude in purple from the angle he's at.

If I had to guess, I'd say The Wizard...but that's a guess.
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post #48 of 94
9/26/06 at 9:57pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabfunk
Just what IS the Fifty State Initiative? I haven't been able to figure this. Is it the villains plan? Is it the idea that Tony Stark can essentially clone all anti-registrants? And why are they calling this prison the "42" prison?

In the final panel of the last issue, can anyone name all the villains? I caught Bullseye and Venom and I think Jack O'Lantern... is that Moon Knight? Who are those guys?
My guess is that the 50 state initiative is a plan to have government sponsored heroes that have been cloned from some existing ones, ala "Clor". By "50 state" I imagined they'd have hero teams in all the states, instead of New York (where almost all the heroes are in the Marvel U).

You know I was hoping when the lame "Extremis" thing was done in Iron Man that it showed he was still being mind controlled, but who knows if that's the case. If they keep it up, I would love it if they turn him into a "villian" but I'm sure they would never do something like that.
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post #49 of 94
9/27/06 at 11:12pm
Thread Starter 
The latest issue of Amazing Spiderman shows Tony Stark in an even harsher light, and makes Reed look even more pathetic than the main storyling in the civil war series.

Won't go into the details, but of course without spoiling much the cover of the issue says everything. The one thing I would say, it's that at least Spiderman finally is showing more common sense and his reactions are more inline with his character than poor Tony and Reed Richards'.
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post #50 of 94
9/27/06 at 11:20pm
What I don't get about the ASM# 535 story is how old Reed Richards is supposed to be in the Regular Marvel Universe.

If he had an Uncle that had to go before the HUAC when he was roughly 4 or 5, then are we supposed to believe that Reed is around mid to late 50s or older?
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