Rogers was masterful, but did he cheat?

I'm perplexed by this whole deal myself. Is it a big deal or isn't it? According to baseball, it's not (no surprise there). The media, however, has gone to town with this thing. Personally, I think he should be called out on it and punished according to the rules (which are very strict and pretty straight-forward when it comes to this kind of stuff).

There's no question that there was something on his hand, and that it was removed once the ump told him to remove it. It was also there for his other two post-season starts.

This will probably come off as sounding very strange, but after the past few years of neverending allegations about every damn player using steroids to get an edge, having an almost 42 year-old journeyman like Kenny Rogers turn out to be using something that seems so innocent in context like pine tar to get an edge doesn't rankle me that much and I consider myself a huge baseball fan. Is it cheating? Sure, but some of the greatest pitchers in the game were known to fuck with the ball (my favorite pitchers as a kid were guys like Charlie Hough, Phil Niekro and Tommy John - to say nothing of THE Texas legend, Nolan Ryan). I'm not sure why it makes me just kind of like Rogers more - trust me, I tried to explain it to my wife last night when they were raging about it on TV - but the fact that he washed it off and still pitched another 7 innings of shut-out ball makes me think it was obvious he didn't need it for any reason other than perhaps his own psyche.

When I think of Barry Bonds or a lot of the other players taking steroids, it makes me think they are out there trying to hit homeruns to boost their salaries and set personal records that have little to do with their teams winning games. When I think of Kenny Rogers using a little pine tar in the first inning, I think of it as a crazy old bastard doing any old shit to try and get his team a World Series championship - even if that means bending the rules.

I admit, it's a weird philosophy, but baseball's a weird damn sport.

This is what gets me, too...why in the world did he even have it on his hand then? Wouldn't he know that it would cause this kind of shit-storm (which, in reality, isn't nearly as bad as it could have been)? He's Kenny Rogers (Hi, I'm Kenny Rogers!) for Christsakes...the same guy that took out a couple of camera men just last year.

I'm so, so impressed by how he's put his team on his back and pitched like no other pitcher has in Detroit post-season history, and has put a run together for the ages. That being said, what the hell was on his hand!?!?

This may sound dumb, but the thing I wanna know is would Larussa have handled it differently if he wasn't such good friends with Jim Leyland. He's running the show but he's got a responsibility to his team and his fanbase... if he could've gotten Rogers ejected maybe he should've?

There's speculation that since Leyland spent some time in the Cardinals' clubhouse, he knows the tricks LaRussa uses, and had LaRussa blown the whistle on this, Leyland would have had ammo to fire back with.

MLB is probably greatful for the controversy. Might help ratings...

Old school baseball tricks (crisco, bardol, vagisil, etc.) don't bother me. In a strange way it's actually comforting to know that it's still part of the game.

That being said, if it's proven that he used this stuff in the ALDS I want a full congressional inquiry.

I was thinking his excuse would be that because it was cold (as it has been the whole post-season in Detroit), he put some dirt on his hand for better grip. But then cnnsi has a photo of him with that same shit on his hand in a July game.

I'm pretty sure it was pine tar, and as such, he was cheating.

Couldn't have said that better myself.

When did Rogers switch from singing to Baseball?

For reference:

I'm glad this came about only for the fact that Kenny Rogers is such an asshole, I couldn't stand the cocksucking he's received the past three weeks.

And to answer questiosn of "why would he do it," Rogers is the kind of person who appears to have absolute disrespect to the outside world. Almost an attitude of superiority.

Old guys doctoring the ball is something that's always been part of the game. Is it cheating, of course. He didn't get busted for it(LaRussa didn't raise enough of a complaint to bust him.) I subscribe to the theory that Leyland knows LaRussa's tricks and LaRussa would rather get to use his than not. Of course I believe aliens exist so that may put my post in context for you. :-)

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense. This wasn't one of Leyland's tricks, this was visible proof of cheating. If the Cardinals were doing something that was obviously cheating, someone else could notice it (as happened here.) It would not be up to Jim Leyland to reveal it.

There really shouldn't even be a debate he cheated. He definately should have been flicked from the game. Its no different than Sosa's corked bat(along with the other cheating he did). He got 8 games, Rogers should atleast have to miss a start.

This is going to sound like sour grapes coming from a Cardinal fan but he should have been tossed. Doctoring the ball has been a part of the game forever but I think pitchers know if they get caught, they are going to get tossed. Risk vs. reward. I'm sure Larussa didn't make a stink for both reasons given above: he's friends with Leyland and Leyland was a scout with the Cardinals the past couple years and I'm sure could spill some beans if he wanted to. However, a pitcher getting tossed for getting caught doctoring a ball shouldn't depend on how much the opposing manager complains. That is the umps job and the umps failed here.

I don't think it's any coincidence Rogers has gone from like a 9.00 ERA post season pitcher to 20+ shutout innings. I'd be pissed if I was a Yankees or A's fan considering there are indications this "substance" was on his hand during those series.

I don't like Rogers anyway. He's a douchebag that lied in his post game interview and apparently thinks we are all idiots (saying it was just dirt and the umps never talked to him about it even though the ump supervisor told the media the umps told him to wash his hands).

I heard Keith Olberman say it was some sort of benzoine that harp players use to make their hands stickier and stains your hands an iodine color. He also said the stickiness can last for up to a day even after washing it off so making Rogers wash his hands didn't do much of anything.

All that being said, Rogers should start game 6 (if necessary) and I hope the Cardinals shell the shit out of him.

It's not cheating if you don't get caught and the only reason it's an issue is because Rogers is a complete asshole. And how is it that every single analyst knows what the substance was but none of them agree on what it was? Could it be because they are all just speculating because they have no proof?

If he had an illegal substance on his hand the umps should have done something about it, they didn't so that's the end of it. If I were Rogers I'd come out for game six with my left hand completely covered in dirt just for shits and giggles (since dirt is a legal substance.)

All that being said, of course he cheated, but he got away with it. Other pitchers are doing the same you can bet on that.

I agree with you it aint cheating if you dont get caught. The thing is though he did. The umps told him to wash his hands. In alot of cases you arent even allowed to blow on your hand without the umps permission. So by them telling him to wash his hands they busted him.

You also have another good point that he isnt the only guy doing it. I totally agree with that. However just becuase everyone else is doing it doesnt make it right or not cheating.

"It ain't cheating if you don't get caught" = Really Fucking Stupid. Of course it's still cheating if you get away with it.

I know that tar or whatever seems kind of quaint in the days when 40 year old men's skulls are swelling up like Mario on mushrooms in the span of a single season, but that doesn't change the facts. And the facts are that a pitcher in the World Series was caught on tape repeatedly and fragrantly violating a clear rule of baseball, and was not even removed from the game. The umpires and La Russa failed in their duties in the most obvious way possible, and it furthers the perception that the national pasttime has become a joke.

I still can't get over this. How in the hell does Kenny not get tossed? How does baseball not do ANYTHING about this?

Welcome to 21st century America. Just because something is conclusively proven doesn't mean that we accept that conclusion. Accountability is so last millenia.

Exactly! I mean, how can you not smell the pine tar on a baseball?

Well the point I was trying to make was that he wasn't caught because if he had been "caught" he'd have paid for it and I did so using a really old analogy, but hey if it makes you feel better to call someone stupid, go for it.

Call me stupid if you like but Rogers pitched seven more innings without the shit on his hand and he was still shutting St. Louis down. What people should really be concerning themselves with is that nobody was bothered enough to check his hand closely, not even LaRussa who should be really given the heat for not making the ump go check him.

I know Roger Craig would have had his ass out there tearing the ump a new one if he didn't go check and he taught his guys how to scuff the ball up so they could pitch that splitfinger so many of his guys were known for. Craig routinely rode Mike Scott's ass when he was with the Astros and it was every time he pitched against the Giants. The umps were lazy but LaRussa's indifference is what should be talked about, it's just bad management on his part.

Wasn't Rogers told to wash something off of his hands by the ump? If so, then the umps are at fault for not throwing Rogers out on the spot. Dirt on your hands isn't illegal in baseball, thus if Rogers had ANYTHING other than dirt on his hands (which he obviously did as he was told to wash them supposedly) he should have been thrown out immediately.

I blame the umps and baseball more than LaRussa.

But the point is LaRussa is there to stand up for his team. He himself said that he knew about the substance BEFORE the game and saw it as the game started. The umps blew it for sure but for the manager NOT to go out there and force the issue is terrible management. Instead of Rogers being tossed on forced inspection AND being suspended for 10 games(which would put him out of the Series) we have a lot of people bitching about something that could have been caught.

Also Rogers says he wasn't told anything about his hand(which is bullshit) but with it being a he said/he said nobody can say otherwise. LaRussa by not forcing an inspection, which is his right, gives up any reason to complain after the fact.

I didn't mean to call any one person stupid, just to point out one of those old chestnuts that doesn't make a lick of sense if you think about it.

The umps failed to do their job, La Russa failed to make them do their job. Now, I don't really give a shit about baseball unless I'm actually at the stadium getting drunk, but this is such a clear-cut violation of the rules that I just find the reactions, or lack thereof, amazing.

I understand the sentiment. I guess I don't care because I don't care who wins, but if LaRussa had pressed the issue then he probably would have made it a lot easier on his guys. The ump who supposedly talked to Rogers was on ESPN today and I didn't understand a word he said. I'm not sure if it was nerves or if he normally talks that way but he just seemed to mumble and fidget. Seemed sort of shook and nervy to be behind the plate of the World Series, but again it could be because he knew he screwed up.

Don't the rules clearly state that a pitcher is to be thrown out if he is found to have anything on his hands besides dirt? Wouldn't that be the protocol to throw Kenny out? LaRussa shouldn't have to do anything...Rogers should have been tossed by the ump the second the ump realized that the substance wasn't just dirt.

I don't really care since he destroyed the Cards for 8 innings, but I'm still baffled by the way this was handled.

Maybe it was just shit.

Now I expect cheating during EVERY game of the World Series. I'll be disappointed if there isn't anymore after all this debate and fuss over it.