CHUD.com Community › Forums › ARTS & LITERATURE › Comics & Anime › Tony Long on Comics & National Book Awards
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Tony Long on Comics & National Book Awards

post #1 of 29
Thread Starter 
http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,71997-0.html

Let me slip into my moldiest Andy Rooney sweater here, because I know how much you guys love it when I whine about the Age of Mediocrity. (We're in the midst of it now, in case you're new to this bimonthly screed.)

Gene Luen Yang is a teacher in the San Francisco Bay Area who also happens to be a fine illustrator. He produced a graphic novel (or "comic book," as we used to call them), American Born Chinese, which has been nominated for a National Book Award in the young people's literature category.

I have not read this particular "novel" but I'm familiar with the genre so I'm going to go out on a limb here. First, I'll bet for what it is, it's pretty good. Probably damned good. But it's a comic book. And comic books should not be nominated for National Book Awards, in any category. That should be reserved for books that are, well, all words.

This is not about denigrating the comic book, or graphic novel, or whatever you want to call it. This is not to say that illustrated stories don't constitute an art form or that you can't get tremendous satisfaction from them. This is simply to say that, as literature, the comic book does not deserve equal status with real novels, or short stories. It's apples and oranges.

If you've ever tried writing a real novel, you'll know where I'm coming from. To do it, and especially to do it well enough to be nominated for this award, the American equivalent of France's Prix Goncourt or Britain's Booker Prize, is exceedingly difficult.

Juvenile literature is a fairly new category (1996) to the NBAs, which have been around since 1950. It's possible that no author wrote a great book aimed at that audience in the past year, but I doubt it. Juvenile literature attracts a lot of first-rate authors. Always has.

Sorry, but no comic book, regardless of how cleverly executed, belongs in that class


Response...http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/?column=10

Excerpt: It's hard to tell how much of Long's attitude is simply the same cultural snobbery that sent some into a tizzy when Neil Gaiman's SANDMAN got nominated for a World Fantasy Award. (It's one thing to say that a graphic novel can't possibly measure up to the standards of, say, William Gaddis' JR, which I cite mainly because it's the last thing I can remember winning the National Book Award, which shows how much attention I pay to it or most other awards, but there's no doubt that Neil & divers hands' comic was easily the equal or better of most of the flaming crap that passes for fantasy novels these days.) Long's argument is obviously based on an easily explodable bias that comics material - which he seems to suggest is inherently juvenile in nature, a longstanding proposition among cultural and social elites who have largely done what they could to make it a self-fulfilling prophecy - can not possibly, ever, be the equal of a prose novel. Which is at least partly true. Because both use words, there's a constant confusion and desire to parallel the two, a tendency the term "graphic novel" exacerbates. But comics and novels work in different ways, so any strict attempt to parallel the two is doomed by a logical flaw. Novels can do things comics can't, certainly, and we can argue all day about whether those things represent something inherently more sophisticated and superior. But comics can also do things novels can't, and simply that many comics haven't done those things is no argument that they can't. In some ways, we're currently in the great era of experimenting with the form; the breadth and depth of its capabilities have yet to be determined.
post #2 of 29
Long muddies his point here. If he's saying that comics shouldn't be nominated in the same category as "word books" because they're two different media, then I agree. But he makes that point, and then he seems to turn around and say that comics are inherently inferior. It's almost like he knew he was saying something stupid, but tried to sneak it in anyway.
post #3 of 29
What a retard.
post #4 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
They need "their" art form to be validated, and be considered at least "potentially" as good an art form as literature. It just isn't. It'll never attract the best minds. Ever. It'll never say anything particularly profound or original (the form doesn't lend itself to that- it necessarily trivializes, somewhat, whatever its subject is), or say anything it says with as much beauty as great literature does.
I couldn't disagree more. Maybe you've been reading mediocre comics your whole life, I dunno.
post #5 of 29
Chris Ware, Art Spiegelman, Osamu Tezuka, Chester Brown, Jim Woodring, Dan Clowes, Gary Panter, George Herriman...I could go on.

I would absolutely put a handful of comics up against one or two of the novels/authors you described (not Watchmen...it's a good example of form in comics, but as a story it falls short).

But I'd be a fool to argue that comics have produced as many great works as literature...as Jason Lutes (Berlin) once said, "If comics are North America, then so far, at best, we've discovered most of Florida." Comics is an artform still in its infancy, particularly because it has been hamstrung by genre pandering for the better part of its existance.

Comics don't work like literature, anyways, so I don't understand the point of saying they're inferior. They're different.
post #6 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
You say it's in its infancy as an artform- where does it have to go? It's just such a limited artform. If creators want to do more, things comics aren't normally thought to be able to do, it seems to me inevitably they'll be forced to do it through more words, one way or another. There are simply depths of thought, feeling and expression comics are unable to touch.
If you think of them in these terms, of COURSE they're limited. Fortunately, there are those who disagree with you.

I suppose you think film is inferior to literature because it's all bright moving pictures that can never hope to have "depth of thought, feeling and expression." I mean, it's just one step above comics, since all it changes is that their pictures move and stuff!
post #7 of 29
What a dazzling retort.

The "those that disagree with you" are the comic artists themselves, by the way, not the people disagreeing with you in this thread.

The only limitations on comics are the ones close-minded people force on them, ones some creators blissfully ignore. What if someone had told Spiegelman that a comic re-enacting the Holocaust was impossible because of the form's "limitations"?
post #8 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
That's a pretty dumb post.
So is the one where you attempted to stack a graphic novel up against the Odyssey and the Bhagavad Gita.

Now, in your next post, you do mention Kavalier and Klay, which makes for a far more interesting comparison than sacred cows that have existed for centuries (Ulysses and Leaves aside, but those are also considered by many to be the single best book in English of the 20th Century and one of the most essential, if not the most essential, volumes of American poetry ever - not exactly stacking the deck there, right?).

Anyway, Maus, though it's technically non-fiction, has every bit the depth, subtext, historical rigor, and characterizations that Kavalier and Klay has and doesn't lose its place in the second half with a tonally awkward jaunt to Antarctica. Incidentally, I like Kavalier and Klay (and I wouldn't compare that to the Odyssey, either, incidentally). But I think when you level the playing ground to "well-written graphic novel vs. excellent contemporary literary fiction," the levels of artfulness aren't really so different.
post #9 of 29
This thread reminds me of that Dilbert cartoon where Dilbert comes in and sneers at Dogbert for having wasted the whole day watching TV while he was improving his mind with a book.

Dogbert says "I just watched a documentary on the discovery of DNA, then learned how to bake a cake from scratch. What were you reading?"

Dilbert mutters something like "Revenge of the Cannibal Stewardesses."
post #10 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madman Mundt
Chris Ware, Art Spiegelman, Osamu Tezuka, Chester Brown, Jim Woodring, Dan Clowes, Gary Panter, George Herriman...I could go on.

I would absolutely put a handful of comics up against one or two of the novels/authors you described (not Watchmen...it's a good example of form in comics, but as a story it falls short).

But I'd be a fool to argue that comics have produced as many great works as literature...as Jason Lutes (Berlin) once said, "If comics are North America, then so far, at best, we've discovered most of Florida." Comics is an artform still in its infancy, particularly because it has been hamstrung by genre pandering for the better part of its existance.

Comics don't work like literature, anyways, so I don't understand the point of saying they're inferior. They're different.
Comics and movies are more or less the same age. Movies were also considered sub-art for the first few decades they existed. Which has blossomed into a greater art form?
post #11 of 29
Castle, you keep saying that books are "superior" to comics (which, from a canon standpoint, I don't think anyone is debating), but you're not really saying how or why. You seem to have this idea that words alone are capable of things that words+pictures are not. I'm not saying this isn't true--it may well be--but you're not really backing this up with any theory or reasoning, you just keep saying it over and over.
post #12 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
Just look at the evidence. If you think the smartest people on this board got there by reading a lot of comic books, you're kidding yourself. Comics don't teach much at all in the reading. They really don't. For a very young person, a steady diet of great comics can perhaps help along vocabulary, but it's still much less effective in doing this than real literature would be. It's not trash, but it's not intellectually nutritious. This is so self-evident that, you're right, I've neglected to explain why.
Everything you've just named could be a problem with a lack of canon, not form. You've failed to explain why it's a problem with the form.
post #13 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
Comics and movies are more or less the same age. Movies were also considered sub-art for the first few decades they existed. Which has blossomed into a greater art form?
Greater is subjective, obviously, but clearly movies have had a healthier life. For a lot of reasons...one being that moving pictures with sound are more immediately connective to the viewer. They're easier to access by their very nature.

You could also argue that comics have had more of an uphill battle as far as the "cultural legitimacy" angle goes...they began to thrive chiefly as a form of entertainment for children, so that's what they've been most identified with (and still are to this day; there's never been a time--outside of my art school days--when I've told people I'm a cartoonist and they haven't assumed I drew either newspaper comic strips, like 'Nancy', or superhero comic books, like 'Batman'). Movies were similarly stigmatized early on, but were allowed more of a chance to broaden their horizons--I believe because of my first point, that they're a more accessible medium.

Also, comics have hindered themselves...it wasn't until the 60's that many comic artists (the underground comix movement in particular) started toying around with the form outside of the box of disposable kid's stuff. And early on comic artists started taking from the language of film more and more (camera angles, lighting, structure, etc), leaving the more unique qualities of the medium relatively unmined (see Chris Ware, Ron Rege, Spiegleman's non-Maus work, etc for examples of decidedly non-cinematic comics).

As far as the idea that Michael Chabon's mind is better than any comic writers* mind...what the fuck? I don't even know how to respond to something like that. Maybe we should strap Chabon and Ware up to a machine and compare EKGs.

*I'm using the term 'comic writer' to mean 'someone who constructs comics' here...there are some good straight up writers of comics (in the sense of typing up a story and giving it to an artist to illustrate), but the crux of comics storytelling is in the design and layout of the page, panels, etc. Again, it's totally different from prose writing.
post #14 of 29
I don't think anyone's made the argument that comics should replace books altogether, but we're also not talking about a steady diet of Dazzler and The Defenders here either. What we're saying is that there are a number of comics that approach and even attain the level that you claim only books can reach, and that comic creators who seek to stretch the boundaries of the medium shouldn't be told, "You'll never be a novelist, so don't bother." No, you shouldn't ignore books in favor of comics, but the medium shouldn't be blanketly disregarded either.
post #15 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Madman Mundt
You could also argue that comics have had more of an uphill battle as far as the "cultural legitimacy" angle goes...they began to thrive chiefly as a form of entertainment for children, so that's what they've been most identified with.
The movies also didn't have a group looking to demonize them and actively bury them as destructive to youth the way comics did in the 50s.
post #16 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
Read the rest of it. You can't do psychology in comics. You can't do philosophy in comics. You can't do poetry in comics. Those are three crucial things.
Wrong, wrong, and again wrong. I've seen all three done, and effectively. That you haven't doesn't mean it "can't" happen. Hell, Gaiman did all three in the course of his run on Sandman.
post #17 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Dickson
The movies also didn't have a group looking to demonize them and actively bury them as destructive to youth the way comics did in the 50s.
Holy lack of movie history knowledge. Movies were considered twice as cretinous as comics when they first started. They were considered dangerous and immoral from the start.
post #18 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
Read the rest of it.
Seeing as you hadn't edited the rest of it in until after I had replied, that was difficult.

Quote:
You can't do psychology in comics. You can't do philosophy in comics.You can't do poetry in comics.
That's, frankly, retarded. The first two are just subject matters. Does that mean you can't make a film about psychology? Can't you make an audio recording of a philosophical dialogue? Poetry is on slightly less shaky ground, but it's really just equivalent to saying that "comics can't do prose." Of course they can't. And films can't do comics. And poetry can't do paintings. None of that proves inherent inferiority.

Quote:
Those are three crucial things. Also, vocabulary and language in comics is necessarily limited...
So, there are words and sentence structures you can't use in comics? News to me.

Quote:
It's not a problem with canon. It's the form. The form limits the canon.
Again, you keep saying that. But not explaining why. Or not coherently explaining why, anyway.
post #19 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
All this indicates is that you don't understand what constitutes psychology, philosophy, and poetry.
No, it indicates your definitions are too narrow to allow anything but what you think it should be.
post #20 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
A dialogue box, a thought balloon, this isn't conducive to flights of poetic fancy.
It's the words that matter, not what's surrounding them.

What a sad, joyless world you must live in.
post #21 of 29
Seriously, why are you people arguing with JohnShade?
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
Dixon, you're getting dumber with every post.
You obviously need to read more books.
post #23 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
Seriously, why are you people arguing with JohnShade?
Oh hell. Suddenly this all makes sense.
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
I like how Madman Mundt acts like Devin just did a big reveal, when HE HIMSELF posted that I was (the apparently quite notorious) John Shade a week ago.

Short term memory problems? Or just fawning? Sucking up to perceived e-authority figures. You know.

Negative rep!
I'm assuming the guy you're talking about is Mad Man Mundt, the poster who's name I stole without knowing it but have been too fucking lazy to change. I probably deserve a negative rep point for that, if nothing else.
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
Don't you play one of the Aristocats at Disney World?
Obviously wit from a mind raised on the classics. I'm off to read some Little Lulu comics as I obviously can't compete with this intellectual giant.
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by devincf
Comics and movies are more or less the same age. Movies were also considered sub-art for the first few decades they existed. Which has blossomed into a greater art form?
Comics have blossomed into a comparable artform in Japan. Had the industry not shot itself in the foot when it ran EC Comics out of town in the 50's, american comics could have grown far beyond Superman.
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by castle
But you're wrong. We're getting into Noam Chomsky territory here. Written language is simply superior to pictures. It requires more thinking, and sharper thinking, and a whole different level of thinking. It hits superior areas.
This might be news to both Da Vinci and Danielle Steele.

Also, you seem to make a distinction between still visuals and moving visuals. What are the inherent intellectual advantages of film over comics? Is the audio the important factor? What about silent films, then?

Quote:
I ask again- who is more likely to be capable of intelligent discussion, be intelligent, articulate, and capable of great depth of thought- an avid comic reader (the best comics) without much reading experience otherwise, or an avid book reader (the best books) without much reading experience otherwise? And why is that? It's a simple question.
The problem is there aren't as many "best" comics, because of the form's relative newness. The avid reader of traditional literature has a much larger canon from which to pick. Naturally, the person with the broader selection of "great" art is going to be more capable of intelligent discussion (as well as "be intelligent," Captain Redundant).

Quote:
Or you could just tell me when the first great works of philosophy, written for and published in the comic book form, are expected to hit. Or the first great works of poetry. Or of psychology.
When were the first great musical works of philosophy or sculptural representations of poetry produced? Different media have different strengths. Comic books, being a hybrid form, have strengths and weaknesses of both literature and visual art.

Quote:
There are forty books a year published, at the very least, that are better than the best comic ever made.
"Best" is relative. You're far too hung up on intellectual expression, which is not the sole function of art. Irrational, emotional content is quite often better conveyed by music and visual art than by text on a page. To be honest, I'm not convinced that many graphic novelists take full advantage of this, but the potential is always there.

Quote:
And you say the deck was stacked- well, the deck IS stacked. Even limiting it to books written in the so-called infancy of books, we still get things like The Odyssey and Iliad, the Bhagavad-Gita, The Aeneid, The History, The Bible- works infinitely superior to anything comics are now or seem ever likely to be capable of.
But those were oral in nature, initially, thus infinitely transportable and capable of being spread. It should be no surprise that those caught on among a great number of people rather than visual narrative art (which, of course, did exist - the Egyptian Books of the Dead, for instance). And when you build cultures upon those sort of building blocks, those cultures end up with some pronounced biases toward them.

Quote:
I just don't see where you all expect comics to be able to go. And I wonder if you're making realistic and intelligent distinctions between what a good book accomplishes, and what a good comic book accomplishes. It's like comparing an issue of Mad to a Mark Twain collection.
Oh, please. Let's compare Persepolis to a Rush Limbaugh book next. Your analogy fails because it assumes Mad and Mark Twain are attempting anything close to the same thing in their versions of satire. They're clearly not.

Quote:
Also, again, a key point is that the best minds will never go to comic books. Never. Never ever. Even if they enjoy them. And why won't they go to them? Not because of any bias, but because they realize comic books are limited, and would limit them. Now to modest or undisciplined intellects and relatively modest creative minds, comics will do just fine. But it will never attract the geniuses.
I don't see why not. Geniuses engage in reading for pleasure (or viewing art or listening to music) as much or as little as anyone. And, depending on the type of genius you're talking about, he or she might not opt for certain types of art at all, no matter how great. Nabokov didn't care for music of any kind, for instance.

Quote:
Oh, and it's not about "levels of artfulness" (whatever that means).
Good. Glad you quoted that, because I probably should have, as that phrase is essentially meaningless, yet it's the only one I can think of that applies equally to all media - I'm using it here because you're basically comparing the overall quality of one type of art to that of another. Your initial post was about the inherent inferiority of graphic novels to trad literature. This implies some sort of universal inferiority, not simply an intellectual one, yet that seems your chief (perhaps only) concern - this is a tremendous mistake when dealing with art. You might as well be comparing opera to haiku.

Quote:
That's a misunderstanding, a simplification, and misses the point. Chabon's mind is better than any comic writer's mind, and to really understand his books (as in how they're written) takes a better mind than is required to understand comics. And Chabon is a relatively light writer. But if I were eavesdropping on someone's inner monologue, I'd prefer Chabon to a comic writer.
I have a feeling that Chabon, himself, would probably disagree with you on this.

And, yeah... I know I'm arguing with John Shade here, but it's an interesting topic, nonetheless.
post #28 of 29
Judging from his limited comic book work, Michael Chabon is only a slightly better than average writer in that medium. I don't think that observation proves anything, beyond the fact that they are two different mediums with different strengths.

Comics can't do philosphy and psychology? News to me. What's WATCHMEN if not a discussion of various points of view, fate vs. free will, the ends justify the means vs. Rorschach's more black and white view of morality, etc. Poetry, I can see the argument for, although I'd toss out Rick Veitch's CAN'T GET NO as a counter-argument.

Honestly, I think the difference is stictly one of form. You probably can't do much of depth in a single 24 page book or a 4 panel daily strip. But with the way the size of a story has exploded in the last 20 years, 500 page stories aren't uncommon, you certainly now have the ability to explore more than the basics of plot.
post #29 of 29
I think he's just making up names anyway. Plato, Thoreau, Melville? Who ever hear of such a thing? Indeed!
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Comics & Anime
CHUD.com Community › Forums › ARTS & LITERATURE › Comics & Anime › Tony Long on Comics & National Book Awards