Superman 2 - donner cut

How could that be possible? Thorne's high school band sounds exactly like Williams orchestra. It should be SEAMLESS I TELL YOU!

Im more concerned about using 'screen test' footage where Reeves has shorter hair and weighs 30 lbs less!! Him and Margot Kidder werent even in the same room for that scene!

They should have used stand ins, look alikes and Singers 'Brandos Alive!!' tech from SR as there is nothing like continuity errors to lift you straight out of the movie and place you back into the miserable existance of the CHUD boards.

I have read a lot of shit about it and I have yet to hear anything negative. Yet...

Not exactly. While the close-ups on Reeve were done months earlier, without Kidder and before he beefed up for the role, the wide master shot that's mostly used includes both Reeve and Kidder and, as rough as it is, the screen test works surprisingly well. It actually got the most positive audience response at the screening I went to.

First of all, I deeply thank Warners for going through with this project. They deserve a lot of credit. And I hope they and other studios continue to dig through their vaults on the quest for lost gems.

Having said that, I'm afraid this new cut is a mixed bag and mostly a disappointing experience for people (like myself) who've spent years bashing the Lester version, thinking that the Donner version had to be vastly superior. Unfortunately, it ain't -- at least not in this incarnation. And in many ways, I find the original Lester version to be a more satisfying experience, as cheesy and campy as it is.

Even though there are some wonderful restored moments (mostly involving Luthor and Zod) and a few big revelations about how entire sequences were originally intended to be played out, this Donner Cut is a frustrating mess. Not because of missing elements or the use of screen tests or that Donner never had the opportunity to shoot several important scenes (mostly in the middle of the film) -- all of that is understandable and forgivable.

What's unforgivable is the amateurish editing (picture, sound AND music) as well as some pathetically low grade visual effects. I mean, it's not like they made a conscious effort to even match the shitty quality of SUPERMAN II's original VFX. The new effects are often worse than those. They're often worse than the effects in SUPERMAN IV. They're often worse than the effects in STAR TREK V. I'm sure they had a very tight budget and there are a lot of new effects that had to be done for this all to make sense. But that's no excuse for the sloppy concept and design behind those shots. When you see guys like Daren Dochterman doing his own very convincing and often spectacular "homemade" effects for STAR TREK: ENHANCED on spec, in the hopes of getting the job but mostly out of love for the material, and then you look at what's on display in SUPERMAN II: The Richard Donner Cut, you have to wonder if the right people are in charge.

And if people are confused by the reports of poor music editing when the restoration team wisely did the sensible thing of using John Williams' original SUPERMAN THE MOVIE score to mostly replace Ken Thorne's pale imitation...well, if you take film scores seriously, you'll really notice the problem when you experience the whole thing. As cheap and thin-sounding as Thorne's score might have sounded, it served the emotional needs of the film. The Donner Cut's music editing seems to merely be plugging holes or patching flaws, with little regard to the emotion of a scene, or its place within the overall film. It's almost as if the editor thought, "I need to fill 12 seconds here, and Luthor's on-screen, so I'll just drop in 12 seconds of Luthor's theme" instead of choosing a cue that best serves the feeling that Superman is getting his ass kicked and Metropolis is in danger, and links those 12 seconds in with what's happening before and after.

I've heard some people who've seen this Donner Cut refer to it as a glorified fan edit. I've heard others who haven't seen it respond by saying that's an unfair opinion to have. The second group is wrong on at least two levels.

But in short, I'll say that the original Donner elements are a joy to finally see -- and what's there really could have worked like gangbusters. Seeing General Zod grin with childlike glee as he uses a primative M-16 to mow down White House security is reason enough to see this new cut. It's just how those raw elements were restored and poorly reworked for the Donner Cut that gives this whole noble experiment the stink of missed opportunity.

Are you asking where ARE the poor visual effects? If so, they're throughout the entire film. Too much to list but if you have specific questions, I can try to answer them.

As for the Brando scenes, they're mostly very effective in terms of writing and performance but again, they're undermined by shoddy VFX work. Seeing Brando's disembodied giant head float around The Fortress is unintentionally hilarious. Would have been better with a bit more Kryptonian Spirit Glow™ (or something.) Right now, he looks like a weatherman wearing a green turtleneck sweater in front of his TV studio greenscreen.

The most interesting bit with Brando comes when he gives Kal-El his powers back, committing spiritual "suicide" to do so. But while Brando benefits from these scenes, Reeve doesn't fare as well. In terms of performance, Reeve is great -- probably better than in the Lester re-shoots -- but his character comes off as a whiny brat. The Lester version depicts Kal-El's choice as one based entirely on a true love for Lois. The Donner version feels like Kal-El is stomping his feet as he whines, "But I always save the world! Now I want something! Me want Earth pussy!"

OK, not that extreme, but you get the point.

A-level effects and a new score would have been nice, but that's probably not realistic with the budget. Although the restored Major Dundee got a completely new score, so it can be done. John Williams just did the new music for Sunday Night Football, so he was busy. Busy rolling on a bed of money! And it sounds like the new "losing powers" version will make more sense to me. Before,it seemed like he gave up his powers because his mommy told him to. If he gives them up because he's not sure he wants to BE Superman, he just wants Lois and a normal life, I like that better.

Damn, didn't expect to hear this.

The only problem I ever had with the Lester version was the campy stuff in the town, that dumb Paris opening and the sickly music. For the most part, the film works, especially the Lois and Clark romance.

This is just...too bad.

Litmus, that was a valuable read. You pretty much said what I've been wondering for a long, long time.

I'm still quite curious to see this cut of the film. The idea of the project is interesting in itself, even if the resulting quality doesn't live up to the original film.

Hm. Yeah, still looking forward to it, though I haven't seen the Lester SII in ages (only have the STM DVD). I might watch that before I check out the Donner cut, just to reacquaint myself with the film. Or should I just pop in the Donner cut first? What do you suggest, Litmus?

Good question. I would say watch the Lester version first, just to refresh yourself and so that you can appreciate the differences in the Donner version. But then I wonder if the Donner Cut would get a more untainted appraisal if you're going in virgin, or relatively so.

I think I asked this in another Superman thread and I never got an answer. If Donner's original idea what to have the reverse Earth/go back in time ending for Superman 2, does anyone know what his plan for the end of Superman 1 was going to be? (i.e. how does Superman save Lois?)

http://www.superherohype.com/news/fe...ws.php?id=4872

They should have just had him find the Dagger of Time. Then he could just press R2 and go back.

Thanks for the answer wadew1.

Does anyone else find it odd that Donner would begin filming a movie he didn't even have an ending to? Does this happen a lot in Hollywood?

SUPERMAN and SUPERMAN II were originally planned to be shot together - a la BACK TO THE FUTURE 2 & 3, THE LORD OF THE RINGS and THE MATRIX sequels were much later.

At some point, the shooting of footage for SUPERMAN II was halted and all resources were pointed toward finishing SUPERMAN. Donner's relationship with the Salkind's was quite strained and he was fired before he could resume shooting on material for the second film. The script(s) on both films were in flux during that initial production, hence the usage of the second film's ending on the first film.

Hi guys,

I just watched it, and well, yeah its not the classic masterpeice we were all waiting for. It is damn good though, way better than lesters version, all the camp and cheesy stuff is out, what we have here is a glimpse of what could have been.

Why doesnt this cut work? Two MAJOR reasons

1. The scene where they used the casting session doesnt work. The actors not only look different, but they're acting is not upto scratch. Then theres the interchanging hairstyles between shots, it really just about kills the scene and ruins the rest of the movie. Yeah sure, the sentiment is great, but they should have used that scene from lesters movie to tie it together, would have worked like a dream. In its current state, the whole romance (which is the main point of the entire film), doesnt work, there is not enough gravity there to convince you why superman would want to give up his powers, and so it is void of any emotion.

2. The ending, I dont understand why they added superman turning the world back in time, it not only doesnt make sense, it doesnt work! Had they just left it out and had closed with scene at the restaurant, it would have been heaps better.

Honestly, a smart editor would have also trimmed the movie by about 20 minutes also, cause if flaunders from time to time.

What did work?

JOR-EL!!!! Man, that final scene between reeves and brando is very moving, greatest scene from the entire Superman franchise.

The begining when Lois figures out clarke is superman, that is hilarious. Works great.

overall, if you're a superman fan, get it. Just lower your expectations.

Semi-correct. Superman was initially scripted as one movie. One BIG ASS movie. The decision to split it up and release two films was made after production was already under way. That's why they didn't have an ending for Part Two after they used the time-travel gag on Part One.

What's weird to me is that it works a lot better there, following an emotional arc off of Lois' 'death'. In the new version of II, it's totally casual, and we're left wondering why Superman didn't reverse time (again?) the minute things started getting out of hand, instead of waiting until the end of the film.

The Brando Jor-el stuff is nice and all (though I laughed my ass off when Superman got "electrocuted" by Jor-el), but the screentest stuff looks ridiculous with the rest of the movie, and the ending where he once again spins the earth backwards (thus negating the ENTIRE MOVIE!?) is fucking retarded. I'd like to know what they were planning to do for Superman II after they moved the time reversal thing to Superman I.

My only problem with the 'screen-test' scene is that I've never cared for the way it was written. Lois pulls a fucking GUN on Clark?

Watching the new edit, I'm finding myself appreciating a number of things about the Lester version. The Paris sequence kicks off the picture with a much-needed dose of Superman-business-as-usual, and the transitions between parallel plotlines are much better thought out.

The biggest deal is this, and it hurts the value of the Brando scenes: Superman and Lois sleep together before he gives up his powers. So... 'woman of kleenex' theory disproved. Why does he still want to give up his powers?

Woman of kleenex theory was always the stupidest thing someone could bring up about Superman. He doesn't punch a bad guy's head off even though he has the power too. He doesn't break doors off when he pushes them open. He exhale to fast and create a hurricane. He can have sex just like anyone else. If in the Lester version he only gave up powers to have sex that's retarded. He gave up his powers in the Donner cut because his father said he had to if he was going to give up his "mission" to simply be with Lois. Apparently neither of them could see that he could do both. What bothered me, is that even though Lois was crying at the end it seemed to me she was willing to work on the whole having him and sharing him with the world. But then Superman said "screw that" and negated the whole movie.

...and then went back to Don's Diner to beat up some asshole trucker out of revenge for something he (now) never did.

Although they all somehow still remember it. Gaahh.

How do you figure? None of them say "hey you're the guy who's here a week from now"

Doesn't Don beg Rocky to not beat Clark up because he had just finished repairing everything? Or is that only in the Lester cut? Because it's definitely in that one. Plus, it's obvious that Rocky recognizes Clark and is ready for a re-match.

Yeah, it's all the same in the new edit. Everyone knows it's a rematch. Nobody asks Clark why he just walked in and beat the crap out of some random guy.

(edit) The new version makes this even uglier by adding a scene at the Daily Planet where some big asshole insults Clark. Clark watches him leave, then heads straight for a storeroom. Cut to the diner. Now, Clark isn't just exacting revenge-- he's venting his aggression on a third party. Credits roll. Happy happy! Yeesh.

Eh, maybe Rocky messes the place up every week, and no one asked Clark because they were flabergasted at what he did.

While you're reaching, grab me Charlie's Angels, eh?

Seriously, though. This disc is an fascinating collection of unseen footage, but in no way is it a complete, cohesive motion picture. Scenes have been truncated or deleted for the simple crime of being Lester footage; as a result, running gags like Lois's 'freshly squeezed' orange juice kick have no origin and the Krypton villains get on TV without actually having done anything horrible in Houston, Iowa. Characters respond to lines that aren't heard, or interrupt their responses with additional dialogue.

Also, calling it the "Donner Cut" is probably inaccurate-- listen to the commentary and you can hear Donner and Mankewicz constantly expressing surprise about which scenes are 'in' or 'out'. It's really the Michael Thau cut, and the dude has gone so far as to insert his name into the opening credits.

Maybe Supes should turn back time even further, fly to Krypton before it explodes with proof that it's going to explode, lead a mass exodus to Earth, take over, make us their slaves in the crystal mines, and so on...

Get Jon Peters on the phone!

That's right...a giant spider and gay robot companion are absolute musts!

The version I saw doesn't have that scene. It just goes from Clark leaving to buy Lois her pizza, then it switches over to the dinner and the confrontation between the "bad ass" and Clark...

Clark bumping into asshole guy didn't make it into the actual "Donner cut". It's a deleted scene.

I think he's refering to a scene in the deleted scenes section. It's not in the actual cut of the film. Though it doesn't really matter as it is still a stupid ending.

Also, is this new, or was it in the Lester cut?
I thought it was funny. Not as funny as Reeve's Super Smirk during the bus throwing scene, though.
DON'T DO IT!!!!

Oh, okay. I'll chime in and say I enjoyed this version of Superman II - getting to see all those scenes put together after all these years was a treat.

The new cut was pretty strong, but you could see where they just didn't have the material to finish the movie proper - what was it about 80 percent that Donner had filmed?

Agh, you're right. I watched the whole thing in one go last night and now it's all mixed up in my head.

I don't recall seeing that Finger of Doom moment in any previous versions, including the RIC. It may well be Donner's; a lot of the confrontation in the Fortress is different.

So is this available at any Blockbusters/Hollywood Videos? It sounds like something I want to see only once, not own. I'd use my brother's NetFlix account, but he's currently on a Bond binge.

At least the Cellophane-S-Throwing power is gone. That rates up there with Superman IV's Masonry Vision as Superman's stupidest power.

I watched it with my two boys this weekend. It wasn't much better than Lester's version, and it wasn't much worse. I don't see the big deal. I guess I am officially Donnered out now, with Superman 1,2 and Returns.

I just don't think it's the big improvement we were all told it was.

Just got done watching it.

Love the new Daily Planet opening, could have done without the bully beatdown at the end. Would have kept the Lex 'blastoff' deleted scene in the film. Overall, it's a pretty good indicator on where SII could/should have gone. The Brando stuff is great, and the tone is far better than what I remember, having not seen the Lester SII in years. That said, the Lester stuff left in sticks out like a sore thumb (probably the change in cinematographers, among other things).

Need to watch the Lester version to really compare it, though.

Just saw it. I really liked the tone and can see how much campness and ridiculous fx they have removed.

No more telekinesis, cellophane S, memory kiss.

The scene made from bits and bobs worked. There were continuity problems, but it was surprising how the acting matched up for most parts. It was worth it for a nice little scene that worked well with the relationship set up between Lois and Clark.

Brandos scenes were a fantastic addition - even if its Brando 'working for the paycheck', its still worth it. I feel that his mother had more empathy and worked better with Reeve, as Brando was always in a different film to Reeve (when you look at the three-act structure of Superman).

Turning the world back, the beatdown in the diner, sex before powerloss - all things that should have been thought about a little more.

The cut is highly worth watching, but it must be kept in mind that this only hints further at what could have been instead of being the actual Donner cut. The best Superman 2 was sadly the version that got shitcanned decades ago, at last this comes closer to it.

Agreed. The sex thing threw me the most, because it establishes an entirely different motivation for Kal-El's choice to become Clark full-time. As I noted before, in Lester the decision is implied (with a notable lack of vulgarity) to be based on physics-- Superman's too darn Super to get down with a puny human, but he's willing to give up everything for a little la-la. In Donner/Mankiewicz, it's an ethical obligation-- Supes broke Jor-El's rules and now he has to resign his position.

From a reptile-brain level, I have to say the Lester version works better. I also prefer the idea that Lois, by leaving the green crystal away from the exploding console, indirectly saves Superman and his powers.

I guarantee he blows a load like a shotgun through her back.


Sorry, someone had to say it.

Actually, I did, in post #22. The reference is to an infamous essay by Larry Niven.

I finally watched this the other day, and was expecting something not good. I ended up having a blast with it, warts and all, even when I was yelling at the screen about how Supes can be Superman and have a life with Lois. I thought that the time travel stuff was not as good as in the first film, but I really liked the "Superman Takes Day Off Punchline."

Ultimately, it feels incomplete, but I still like this better than the Lester version, and it's still a blast. It still makes me want to see what could have been all the more...

I honestly believe that with the Lester Cut, the Donner Cut and some better visual effects, there's a much better version of the film waiting to be put together by some ambitious fan out there. I bet we see something superior to the Donner Cut within the next 12 months, either on YouTube, or bootlegged at comic book conventions, or elsewhere.

It's certainly not as good as Donner thinks it is. How is he still bitter about this as he clearly is?

I liked the beginning to the Donner version better and a lot of the Brando stuff. But overall I'd say the Lester cut is better. Someone said that between the two is an even better version waiting to be made. I think that's true. If only....