Civil War #6: Discussion Thread - Page 2

I usually think Tony and Reed are the smartest guys on the planet, but I keep thinking back to Spider-Man: The Other, when Reed, Tony, Hank Pym, etc. are examining and running tests on Spidey after his "rebirth", and neglect to find the foot long STINGERS that are now in Spidey's arms. These guys forgot to run a simple x-ray? Come on!

Does it really need to be stated that people have different opinions? Please.

My opinion btw is that Infinite Crisis is infinitely worse than Civil War, and it shouldn't be hard to understand why. Poor art direction and consistency, overuse of obscure character references and moments that most readers won't understand, stupid ideas like "reality waves" that bring back random characters back to life, cosmic mumbo jumbo that is incomprehensible at the end, and one of the lamest character deaths when the original Superman dies.

I was really into that series, buying a lot of the tie-ins, the Villians United stuff, but it really didn't come together well and just lost it's way midway towards the end. Lots of potential, extremely poor execution.

He was only Pym for a couple of days at the most. Pym was already acting weird in the series before he was replaced with Hulkling, so it was probably par for the course if he did anything out of the ordinary.

Also consider Cap knows Pym pretty damn well and helped make sure Hulkling could pass off as Pym for a sufficient amount of time.

I also don't know much about Hulkling's capabilities, but it's possible immitating people well is one of them.

Doesn't he say he's only been Pym since that morning in the issue?

Then again, you may be right. My take on reading of Civil War is much like taking off a band-aid... really quickly but still painful. I didn't really spend much time to absorb the details, what little there were. I read it and then handed it back to the person I'd borrowed it from, then promptly washed my hands.

Acme Novelty Library is in a league all in it's own and you can't really compare it to very many comics period, let alone Civil War.

Having said that, I am enjoying Civil War and the Frontline complimentary book immensely. I completely lost interest in the Ultimates after the last issue and I am not giving a shit enough to bother reading the last issue of volume 2, whenever that POS comes out.

After the completely lackluster ending of Planetary last year and all of the tomfoolery that has been happening with other series I have been reading (seriously, the Marvel-run Squadron Supreme anyone? That one really frustrated me, especially after the Nighthawk limited series. That series was, for all intensive purposes, the best re-imaging of the whole Batman/The Joker mythos ever made. Don't even get me started on Ultimate Powers, or any of the other Ultimate titles!), I am down to Powers, Strangers in Paradise (which fucking ends in 4 issues), All-Star Superman and picking up the odd old trade paperback at my comic store now (with the exception of the very excellent Dr. Strange mini-series The Oath). Civil War is flawed in some ways, don't get me wrong, but next to House of M this is fucking Shakespeare. Even though the hackneyed ending is bound to happen, I am way more excited to see what direction things will go once this series is over.

Doesn't the fact that you're not completely absorbing the book and it's contents imply that you're not giving it a fair shot? No wonder you're not liking it, you're not even bothering to check if it makes any sense.

I notice that some of the writers at Marvel are trying to ignore the Civil War as much as possible in their individual comics.
I,for one, am tired of these massive stunts.
And although they might boost sales temporirly, they just makes comics harder and harder for newcomers to get into..which I think is what is driving the comic books industry into almost being a niche market.
And I have come to the opinion that the only way to do a reset on a comic book universe is what Marvel did with the Ultimate series...just push the freaking button and start from Day One. I would not be surprised if DC starts something like the Ultimates Series eventually.The might have already,since I have not picked up a DC Comic for some time. "Batman" is the only DC character I was really into. (I mean the mainstream DC Universe. The indie books that DC publishes such as Watchman are a different story).

its just too bad nextwave couldn't have come in to save America by beating both sides of the Civil War up.

F'n cancellations. I don't care that Immonen is going to Ult. Spider-Man, Ellis should've made the deal that if he writes Thunderbolts, then Nextwave lives forever. And Then Some. lol

That's not so much an argument against Civil War as it is against universe-sweeping crossovers in general. Naturally not every writer working at a company is going to agree with every decision their company makes, which is one of the shitty things about crossovers.

This is the first one I've really paid attention to (aside from some stuff when I was younger, but I mostly bought things from the same storyline to have a set), so I'm having fun with it. I can completely see why others are rolling their eyes at this kind of thing happening again, however

I don't know how much this is true. A lot of people seem to be picking up Civil War, getting involved in the characters, related titles, and then the whole Marvel universe because of it. Seems to be the case with most crossovers. It's the dense layers of years and years of continuity that really help keep casual fans to a minimum, not the year or so of one single crossover event.

Yeah, but then the entire bottom of the comics industry would fall out. The hardcore fans would shit themselves and riot at the loss of their character's history. As it stands, having the regular universe and the Ultimate universe is a happy medium. Unfortunately 'cause the Ultimate universe is getting on in the years, this point becomes less and less true.

I don't know how I'd feel about such a drastic change, myself (re-booting the universe), considering I like that I can read a story arc about a character and go "Hey that guy was cool." and find about a million other great stories about them and see how they all connect. A sense of history is a valuable thing, I think.

They kind of did with the All-Star books. Both are back-to-basics approaches to the characters (Batman and Superman, respectively) with continuity thrown to the wind. They're not nearly as present (or on time) as any of the (non-Ultimates) Ultimate books, though.

I just wanted to mention that I honestly am having a harder and harder time buying the argument that the continuity of comic books is a problem that hurts the industry when it comes to attracting new fans. It seems like a lot of people aren't even reading the comics they're claiming are like this, 'cause I've been reading a ton lately and non are so continuity intensive I've had to wikipedia my way to understanding what was going on, or who is who. Most comics may be hard to follow if you miss a particular issue because they're a part of a story arc, but within the arc you'd be hard-pressed to not be able to follow what was going on and/or have your enjoyment of the story be hurt.

Take the current Batman run for example. It's complete shit, but it's a nice, neat, self-contained story where all you need to know before hand is who Batman is. That's it. Wolverine's main title and his back-up title, Origins? Same thing. You know Wolverine, you read the story. Same with Ghost Rider, Blade, Punisher, Civil War, X-Men (although the current team in this particular title is obscure as hell), Uncanny X-Men (although the current story arc is 12 issues long), Daredevil, Punisher MAX, and Moon Knight - and those are just the titles I can think of 'cause I've been following them lately.

If the case were made that the structuring of comics in arcs of about 6 issues can be alienating, I'd be more inclined to agree. Really just more fuel for the switching to the trade format argument, though.

Ironic considering both Monica Rambeau and Aaron are involved on the anti-registration side of the Civil War despite what unfunny Nextwave covers would have you think.

As much as it sucks for the people that love Nextwave (I liked some of it, just plain shrugged at most of it, and sighed at the rest), it's not like BIG BAD MARVEL decided "Hey! Immonen's pretty good. Let's kill Nextwave so he'll do Ultimate Spider-man 'cause we're losing Bagley on it soon!"

The issue was a matter of legal mumbo-jumbo that resulted in keeping the status quo of Nextwave becoming financially unfeasible, and that's straight from Warren Ellis. I'd also note there wasn't a hint of outrage toward Marvel or allegation of wrongdoing on their part from what I read from him, so it seems that while Ellis and Immonen are probably unhappy Nextwave is done, they're not blaming Marvel. Ellis did, IIRC, suggest the possibility of some specials for them, though, so take heart.

The Nextwave appearances in Civil War seemed like an in-joke in response to that joke cover about not being involved in the crossover, sort of an "Oh yeah?" deal from McNiven.

The fault for Nextwave's demise lies on the fanboys. Period. They don't want to read fun comics anymore.

But story-wise, they make sense. Monica Rambeau was a significant member of the Avengers for a while so to have her sit this one out seems kind of stupid despite what Warren Ellis has distorted to suit his needs.

I'm pretty sure Warren said the sales were AT LEAST enough that they could have sustained the book under a normal funding model, but with the way Stuart's contract was he would have to keep getting paid more and more as the series went on. And we're talking a disproportionate amount, not a reasonable superstar artist rate.

It sucks for you guys Nextwave died (wasn't my cup of tea, although I did appreciate most of it), but trying to find fault where there isn't any is going to accomplish nothing. It sold well, it was liked by the editorial at Marvel, and it's team had fun doing it, however forces conspired that it couldn't continue at a reasonable cost.

I don't think Ellis and Immonen even intended for it to to be an ongoing, which is why the whole contract issue happened in the first place. If the blame goes anywhere, put it on them for not foreseeing it would actually be a success and probably be able to last more than 12 issues.

My point is not neccessarily about Nextwave, which I think works fine as a 12-issue miniseries, and more to do with the fact that books that try to be interesting and fun are doomed to take a backseat to books featuring "core characters" and "important events that will change everything", not because of evil, money-grubbing publishers and editors, but because the fans seem to virtually demand it. There's something really messed up about comics fandom these days, and, as I said in one of the other threads, it's bound to cause the market to implode eventually, despite the increasing sales. Best case scenario: superheroes revert to a culty genre again, and mroe accessible stuff takes over the top spot.

I don't know why people here perceive the superhero stuff to be so inaccesible when they generally attract the new readers to the industry. I'd say Nextwave, Preacher, or any number of the more critically acclaimed comics are far more cult-suited books than anything featuring a big name.

Mass appeal is mass appeal, and unfortunately super-hero comics have the mass appeal. Pretending they don't and that the smaller books do is silly.

There have been reports of people who haven't read comics in years--regular people, not geeks--picking up "Civil War" because it's been written up in non-comics publications, because Quesada was on Colbert, or something similar. Obviously, the same goes for Spiderman, X-Men, and Batman whenever one of the movies comes out. But do you honestly think these intrigued newbies stick around and become superhero fans? I highly doubt it. It's not because superheroes are inherently a niche market (though they kind of are), it's because of the way they're currently being written. Even if you can get past the continuity wanking and the lack of resolution for big events, there's still decompression, unevenness of tone, and confusing storytelling run rampant. The inherent fanbase for superheroes is and always has been kids, and yet increasingly they're aimed at 40-year-old virgins and no one else. What's going to happen when that group all dies of massive cardial infarctions? Where's the next generation of superhero comics fans?

There are a handful of currently-published superhero books I would recommend to anyone, but I've had FAR better luck interesting friends and family in comics by giving them Y: The Last Man or Scott Pilgrim or Bone or even The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. They don't just read them, they ask me to give them the next installment. If the market didn't revolve around superhero books, if there was a way to get this stuff out into the hands of average people, and if the comics culture was a little less freaky and inbred, books like these would be outselling superheroes, no sweat.

I don't think any of us has the sufficient data to say one way or the other.

This is entirely true. What am I supposed to say to this considering I haven't said anything to contradict it in the first place?

I've had similar experience, unfortunately I don't think that is indicative of market trends or the masses at all. Our anecdotal evidence doesn't mean shit when it comes to what really would/should be successful in comics, especially considering our opinions are not only biased by our experience, but our taste as well.

Once again, I really don't think the average person would give a shit about Preacher or Nextwave or Watchmen or Scott Pilgrim or Y: The Last Man. The average person apparently likes seeing shit blow up or Adam Sandler capering about for 90 minutes judging from box office receipts. These same people think comics are for kids, and would more than likely scoff at the more sophisticated material that is entirely unrelated to the genre of superheros.

A lot of people here seem to have their opinions on what is hurting the comics industry be painted by their interests.

The Awesome Pt. 1.

The Awesome Pt. 2.

Wow, I forgot about this argument. My original point, Smeagol, was that fanboys seem kind of OCD these days. They don't buy books based on entertainment value, they buy them based on whether they're part of a big "event" or tie into continuity somehow. That's lame, whether we're talking about superhero comics or not.

And this is what's causing market contortions. You give someone an entertaining comic, and you might make him a reader. You give them "Infinite Crisis" and their brain explodes. But "Infinite Crisis" is what gets big numbers within the cloistered world of comics, so no one wants to take the risk and try to build an audience with a more accessible book. It becomes a viscious cycle, and I think it's bound to collapse eventually. Fortunately there has been some diversity in comics lately...I just don't know if it's enough to sustain the genre if the bottom falls out of the superhero market.

Well that seems perfectly understandishable.

That's pretty funny.