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post #51 of 68
"Les Miserables," also musical theatre.

The difference basically has to do with what they're derived from. Opera has its roots primarily from classical music, musical theatre from popular music. These giant musicals you're talking about, it's more about the spectacle and bombast rather than the music itself -- whereas in opera, much more emphasis is placed on the music and the singers. "Phantom" and "Le Miz" are also called "pop operas," but they fall within the genre and scope of musical theatre. Just because the guys don't speak doesn't mean that it's not a musical.

However, I will concede that the more complex musicals -- 'Sweeney Todd,' 'Show Boat,' 'Porgy and Bess' -- are sometimes given productions by opera houses, so it's a genre where there is some limited crossover.

But even then, there's controversy about whether or not these musicals -- which are designed in the musical tradition -- should be performed as opera, a style with its own tradition and hallmarks. I know that Sondheim has been iffy about his shows being performed as opera, for example.

Here's what Wikipedia says, for more information:

Quote:
The 1980s and 1990s saw the influence of European "mega-musicals" or "pop operas," which typically featured a pop-influenced score and had large casts and sets and were identified as much by their notable effects - a falling chandelier, a helicopter landing on stage - as they were by anything else in the production. Many were based on novels or other works of literature. The most important writers of mega-musicals include the French team of Claude-Michel Schönberg and Alain Boublil, responsible for Les Misérables and, in collaboration with Richard Maltby, Jr., Miss Saigon (inspired by Madame Butterfly); and the British composer Andrew Lloyd Webber, who wrote Evita, based on the life of Argentina's Eva Perón, Cats, derived from the poems of T. S. Eliot, The Phantom of the Opera derived from the novel "Le Fantôme de l'Opéra" written by Gaston Leroux , and Sunset Boulevard (from the classic film of the same name). Several of these mega-musicals ran (or are still running) for decades in both New York and London.
post #52 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu
Opera has its roots primarily from classical music, musical theatre from popular music. These giant musicals you're talking about, it's more about the spectacle and bombast rather than the music itself -- whereas in opera, much more emphasis is placed on the music and the singers. "Phantom" and "Le Miz" are also called "pop operas," but they fall within the genre and scope of musical theatre. Just because the guys don't speak doesn't mean that it's not a musical.
Hmm. I've always thought of Wagnerian opera to be at least as much about spectacle as about music. Wagner thought of music as just one element of the big show, and he was all about the big show.

I'm basing my contention on a music history course I once took. The instructor described opera as I have, and argued that assertions that opera must derive from classical music amounted to chronocentrism. The argument makes sense to me. However, since this is outside my area of expertise, I don't have much more to offer in the way of argument.
post #53 of 68
Thread Starter 
I've never claimed to be an expert on opera but I do know that there was a time when many said that if it wasn't Italian it wasn't an opera. When Jean Lully first introduced ballet into opera in France many said that because of the ballet in it, it wasn't real Opera. "The Beggar's Opera" in England led to the development of the ballard opera. In Naples the comic interludes "intermezzi" between scenes were added to serious operas.

I bring up these facts only to point out that the opera has long history of change. Every change had opera fans that were against them. I'm not suggesting that today's musicals will one day be grouped with classic operas but when it comes to music and theater one should have an open mind and that labels are never a good thing.

In fact I think if we could get the "opera" label dropped more people would be open to see these musical plays. Many people are turned off as soon as they hear the word "opera" and that's very sad.
post #54 of 68
There are fundamental differences between opera and musical theatre, the largest of which I mentioned above regarding origins. While musical theatre has its roots in opera, sure, and, there has begun to be some crossover in the past twenty years, the fact remains that classifying Andrew Lloyd Webber as opera is a dumb thing to do. Musical theatre is its own style, opera is its own style, each with its own pros and cons. Why do we need to merge the two at all?

Basically, I believe in opera, the characters sing because the style mandates that they do. In musical theatre, the characters sing to express emotion which cannot be achieved through mere dialogue. They sing because they must, not because they're forced to.

And I may be wrong, but there's enough dialogue and situations in "Phantom" and "Les Miz" to qualify them under the banner of 'musical theatre.'
post #55 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by RathBandu
And I may be wrong, but there's enough dialogue and situations in "Phantom" and "Les Miz" to qualify them under the banner of 'musical theatre.'
I haven't seen Les Mis in over 15 years, but I don't recall there being a single line of dialog. The whole thing is sung, soup to nuts.
post #56 of 68
Yeah, I checked -- you're right. I still wouldn't call it opera, though.
post #57 of 68
Only at CHUD could a thread on a Wolfman cane morph into a discussion of the relationship between opera and musical theater. You've gotta love this place.
post #58 of 68
Quote:
You spent hundreds of dollars on canes you will never use. Canes.

Perhaps....but imagine all the uses for your fine handcrafted replica of the Imperial Blaster. Whip that bad boy out at the grocery store and watch the honeys flock in.....

http://uniquecanes.com/new/item_repl...trooperE11.php

Borgosi, that looks like a cool niche site. For the record, I liked the Barnabus cane better. Even if I don't have the grand guignol in me to ever pull something like that out in public.
post #59 of 68
Thread Starter 
"Les Miz" & "Phantom" aside I just think it's a bad idea to be such a purist, about anything, that you don't allow change.

He talked about Porgy and Bess, The Library Congress says it's "the one American opera to become fully established in the international opera repertory as well as in the popular musical imagination." I would say that makes it more than just crossover.

Here http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/treasures/tri008.html

As for Webber, in the 70's they called "Jesus Christ Superstar" a "rock opera" and I kinda think that fits. I think Aphrodite's Child's "666" and The Who's "Tommy" would fit under that as well. The music is based in rock and not classical but they were more about the music than the theater, at least in the beginning.
post #60 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by teledork
Perhaps....but imagine all the uses for your fine handcrafted replica of the Imperial Blaster. Whip that bad boy out at the grocery store and watch the honeys flock in.....

http://uniquecanes.com/new/item_repl...trooperE11.php

Borgosi, that looks like a cool niche site. For the record, I liked the Barnabus cane better. Even if I don't have the grand guignol in me to ever pull something like that out in public.
Last year I took my Barnabus cane to church and the pastor himself came up to my and said he was a Dark Shadows fan. "Used to run home from school to watch it". The great thing about something like one of these canes is, when you do take it out in public and someone sees it and knows what it from, they ask about it and it's like you already knew each other. They're like a badge to a secret club that only a real horror fan would know. They can be a great ice breaker.
post #61 of 68
Also available on the site:



The site's full devotion to bending/breaking the First Commandment aside, that hat's right up there with the stormtrooper blaster in conversation pieces.

I like the canes in a "really rounds out the Halloween costume" sort of way.
post #62 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 70sCinema
Also available on the site:



The site's full devotion to bending/breaking the First Commandment aside, that hat's right up there with the stormtrooper blaster in conversation pieces.

I like the canes in a "really rounds out the Halloween costume" sort of way.
How is that site devoted to bending/breaking the first commandment?
post #63 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Borgosi
How is that site devoted to bending/breaking the first commandment?
I'm guessing he's implying the "collection/hoarding of expensive material possessions" or the inclusion of "occult-related entertainment" or both. Maybe something else entirely...
post #64 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8
I'm guessing he's implying the "collection/hoarding of expensive material possessions" or the inclusion of "occult-related entertainment" or both. Maybe something else entirely...
Maybe, but to suggest that they are selling canes to be worshiped or that we should make them our gods is a more than a little silly. That's like saying people with bank accounts are bending/breaking the first commandent.
post #65 of 68
Beats me. I was only speculating.
post #66 of 68
If chicks dig canes, think of all the 'tang this kid must get

post #67 of 68
wow
post #68 of 68
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8
Beats me. I was only speculating.
As was I.
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