Faggots and Niggers

Why is shit censored and ass allowed to roam free on television? It just seems like one word has a stronger connotation than the other.

Why is it okay for non-blacks to use "nigger"? About four Hispanic kids got on my train the other day, and this was featured in every sentence they said. I thought it was some sort of elaborate esoteric performance art.

An ass would be short for jackass. I'm guessing asshole isn't used.

That would have been pretty awesome, though.

Yeah, I was kind of disturbed by the way that word was being thrown around in the other thread.

Personally, I think there's a line between reporting what happened and using what happened as an excuse to use that word freely. If your paper's journalism standards avoid the use of "nigger," then they should avoid the use of the word "faggot," too. If you're writing for a publication for adults, by adults, and you're repeating what was said in order to make clear the offensive nature of the word, you deserve a little lee-way...especially if you're quoting it. I know when I wrote my THUD piece on 'Grey's Anatomy', I debated whether or not to use "faggot" when detailing what happened between Washington and T.R. Knight, and ultimately, I chose to use it because the point of the piece was about how such offensive language is unacceptable and I knew some of the readers' weren't aware of what exactly went down. I used the word twice when quoting the actor and twice elsewhere, and in retrospect, I probably could have found a better way to avoid using it those last two times.

Thanks for bringing this up.

Yeah, the media struggles with how to deal with it. The Washington Post chose to refer to the word as "a six-letter slur aimed at homosexuals" in its story about Coulter. Some printed the word, while others wrote f-----. I think a lot of people take their cues from the media on stuff like this. The "N" word has been taboo a lot longer (almost to an extreme). In the meantime, how many people here laughed the first time Bill and Ted called each other "fags" after hugging? A lot of people honestly don't think that one word is as hateful as the other. It's a stupid double standard that will hopefully become a thing of the past.

I can understand, but not necessarily agree with, the reasoning as to why some people may think "faggot" does not have as strong a connotation as "nigger." "Faggot" is a demeaning word describing homosexuals, yet it is more often than not used as a dergoatory slam against straight men. While on the other hand, the word "nigger" is used almost exclusively as a derogatory slam against black people, and has been for hundreds of years. As a straight man, if you call me a faggot, it obviously doesn't have the same impact on me as the word "nigger" has on African Americans. That's the reason most people don't hold "faggot" and "nigger" on equal standing.

(hope that makes sense)

In response to these words: the scary gun wielding black people would invade white neighbourhoods in outrage, whereas the homosexuals would simply continue partying and using drugs. That's why newspapers think twice before printing nigger, but needn't worry about faggot.

Or it might be a blatant double standard. Save only for the point — which most people aren't aware of anyway — that the words fag and faggot have meant subservient/girly/weak since well before homosexuality was "acknowledged".

I agree, my point is that may be what causes many people to think faggot is not as derogatory as nigger.

It doesn't make much sense, but that's the way gay slurs are often used. If you use a gay slur against someone you know is straight, it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. It's implying that the guy isn't a "real man". I don't think it makes the word any less offensive, though.

I've seen articles about the Grey's Anatomy flap try to switch 'faggot' for "the F word", which is confusing at best.

It really says something about our history. Not saying "nigger" anymore and giving them civil rights seemed to be our way of saying sorry. "Faggot" doesn't have nowhere near as much hate associated with it.

This reminds me of a comment Artie Lange said on Stern, something to the effect of "it would be a lot easier if it wasn't such a funny word" in light of the whole Grey's Anatomy hubbub.

That's where I've always stood on the subject. If the word is used with malicious intent, that's where the line is crossed.

So, calling a white man a nigger implies, what? He can't dance?

No, it implies he can dance.

You didn't mention the prevelance of using disabilities as an insult. I'm surprised; I thought those were your favorites now that you don't feel comfortable using "gay" as an insult.

Ah, so it was a compliment. I'm no longer offended.

No way. I mean, yeah, in the grand sense of being "right" that seems correct, but really, nigger and fag are totally different slurs. A white guy can't really be a closeted black dude, but any one of your friends could be a covert homosexual!

That said, the Russians seem to use nigger for anyone who isn't completely white.

If they just switched to "**gg**" both groups could partake in the non offensiveness simultaneously.

Maybe **gg** could become an all encompassing slur. How would you pronounce it?

Would he say stuff like "Last one in the pool is a nigger baby!"

I'm interested in your source for etymology of the words. To my knowledge, fag or faggot meant "bit of wood/tinder" and "cigarette" and "out of breath" (I'm fagged!). In the "bit of wood" sense it was used as a derogatory term for women (useless, who had to be carried like a load of wood), and for underclassmen/lower ranks. It was also used to indicate people who filled out the ranks or supplied additional votes (being, I suppose, the extra sticks to be counted). I'm not sure where "gay" came into the picture.

Also, by "homosexuality being 'acknowledged'" what time frame do you mean? The 1960s? Obviously the Greeks were open about homosexuality back in the first few hundred years AD. What an interesting society - ok to be naked, but entirely inappropriate to show your glans penis in public to the point of using a kynodesme, and you could have sex with pubescent boys and/or adult women.

I think it's subtly perpetuating the attitude that it's okay to make fun of gay people, which is just fine by a lot of people. Plus, many people don't see homosexuality as a choice, so in their mind, homosexuals are choosing to be part of a group that is being offended, whereas being black is obviously not a choice.

Although there are plenty of people who probably think it's okay to make fun of black people too, they just can't be as overt about it.

My grandfather used 'the queers' and 'the blacks'.....and you knew exactly who he meant. Those were simpler days.

Do old people still get a pass for using racial slurs, or are we done with that?

Not to change the subject, but what about us frogs?

I just got done finishing a Battlefield 1942 session where a few of us were warned not to speak French. If we had used the "N" word or said something about Jews we would have been kick/banned, so, some racism is accepted, especially in the States. Why? Is it a question of how many people would be offended?

I remember e-mailling Devin about this, because I thought he was ragging on the French too much. On any given day, I can site any website for stereotyping the French in a way that, if it was any other race, I could sue for a hate crime. I remember going to a Ruby Tueday during the "Freedom Fries" fiasco and not finding French Dressing in the salad bar. That's insulting, even if I'm a French-Canadian.

So, what do you guys think? Is there some sort of racism or bigotry accepted?

Yes.

Unfortunately.

TV critic James Poniewozik had a few interesting things to say on his TIME blog in the wake of the GREY'S ANATOMY 'faggot' furore.

Here's what he wrote about it.

Given this, I guess I agree with Devin (if I understand him correctly - sometimes my comprehension is a tad fuzzy) in that the intention of the word is what's harmful, not the word itself.

You stated you think they are on equal footing, and I thought (perhaps I was wrong) that you were not comfortable using one.

So do you mean that you are comfortable using both as an insult?

Generally. Unless you're casting a spell.

I don't have any kind of profound thought on the issue at the moment, but funnily enough I ran into an interesting example of this type of thinking on the way to work this morning.

Listening to the Tony Kornheiser show here in DC, and his guest was David Dupree, a basketball columnist for USA TODAY, who was talking about the John Amaechi issue. He mentioned how when you cover basketball you get to know which players are gay. They used that as a springboard to talk about NBA culture and how impossible it must feel to come out as a professional athlete. Anyway, Dupree talked about Amaechi's relationship with Jerry Sloan, who coached him on the Jazz. Apparently Sloan was quite the abuser of the word faggot, and though Amaechi said he loved him as a coach, he couldn't stand him as a person. Dupree didn't actually use the word until the end of the interview though, after which Kornheiser joked it off and said don't worry, it was okay by the censors.

Two things struck me about this:

1) If Dupree had called Sloan out for calling his players niggers instead of faggots, Sloan would be hanging in effigy as we speak.

2) If that were the case and Dupree used the word nigger instead of faggot on the Kornheiser show, I can't imagine Kornheiser would've laughed it off. Not saying he would've come down on Dupree, who's black, but I think he would've addressed it more directly.

...

And what about gay black men and women? It's like they can't win for losing.

It's why I'm with Poniewozik in being a little taken aback by the controversy surrounding Isaiah Washington denying that he called his co-star a faggot. If Washington lied about that (and the general consensus is that he did), you then have something to fret about. But simply saying the word out loud - without directing it at anyone - seemed to stir up even more trouble.

Is it just me, or is anyone else feeling extra cautious about what they write on this topic? I don't want to qualify my every comment with "But I'm not a racist! Or a homophobe!" but I've found myself going back over every word I've written just in case there's a chance they could be misinterpreted. Maybe I'm just yellow. No, wait...cowardly! You know what I mean!

Does anyone else here think Anne Coulter could be a tranny? I find it funny she implied John Edwards is gay, considering he appears to be happily married with children.

She's a single, 45-year old b-yatch that looks like she has an adams apple at times, and her jaw is more square than Brad Pitt's (can't think of any other actor's with square jaw lines). And her favorite book is The Bible. How gay is that?

Eh, tranny, the Devil. She wears many monikers, I've found.

Speaking of the Stern show, I love hearing Howard try to pretend that he isn't a racist, or hearing him claiming that certain staff members use nigger too often, while throwing around "faggot" like there's no tomorrow.

I've said it before. There are two cultures you can openly debase without fear of being called a racist or xenophobe: the French and the Americans (USA). So that's one thing they can share.

There is no French ethnic group/race.

Are you kidding, or are you not familiar with people passing?



Mr. Thompson, I'm not sure what your post is supposed to mean. That Mr. Faraci feels that the intentions are what is important, and therefore he would use any slur (based on race, sexual orientation, or disability) equally, because it's not the words but the hate that he puts into them that are important?

ETA:

Even if it doesn't fall under race, it's still bigotry. Wops, Dafos, Frogs, WASPs, limeys and micks....we're all white, but different...

Certain white people call each other "Nigger" all the time. It's never derogatory in that context. Like, "Yo, my niggers!" (Or "niggas"). Or Chris Rock's "Nigga, please." Obviously it's just an appropriation from black slang. I was a bit taken aback when that popped up in Shaun of the Dead, and actually it says something that you see that in a British movie, whereas you wouldn't see it in a mainstream American one. The Brits don't exactly have a history free of racial tension, but since they mostly skipped over the whole slavery thing I guess it's not as loaded for them.

By the way, I think it's good to use "nigger" in a non-insulting way. The whole reason black people started referring to each other that way was to render the word harmless. It goes through irony to casual acceptance. But it doesn't work if we all tiptoe around it and refuse to use it.

I remember seeing a great anti-racism poster years ago: The background had every racial slur imaginable : nigger, wop, frog, camel jockey, spic, kike, jesus freak, etc... In bold type, it said: "Careful, one of these applies to you"

I hate it when people, usually Americans, refer to the French as smelly, cowardly fags... you know many of you do...

Obsessing about racism and oppression against white people in the US is a waste of time, to be quite honest.

Perhaps news reports don't use the word 'nigger' because the idea of it being said by establishment figures, on national television, would enrage black people. Evidently it is not problematic for the Boondocks on adult swim to use the word excessively, while censoring the word 'bitch.'

I think saying 'the n word' is pretty ridiculous though. If you're report it, or reference, either call it a racial epithet or say the word. It always makes me feel like we're in grade school. 'OoOooh he said the f-word!'.

Faggot? Oh, yeah, you can say that. Maybe because faggot has a more traditional etymology - it wasn't used as a power trip by an enslaving class.