The would-be screenwriters thread

Any self-respecting nerd (is that an oxymoron?) puts down Story after reading the bit where McKee completely misremembers the climax of The Empire Strikes Back in an attempt to make a point.

I like William Goldman's insights-- one more reason to mourn the loss of Premiere magazine.

I haven't read a ton of books, and I hope this doesn't come off as snobbish, but I've paged through Flinn's "How NOT To..." book in between ogling the hot little barista at the Barnes & Noble cafe, and so many of the points seemed so obvious that I kind of wrote it off. I know to do so without reading the whole book is kind of prejudiced, but have you really looked into prejudice lately? It's quite the little time-saver.

Syd Field's books were one of the first screenwriting guides I read, way back when I started to get sort of serious about scripts -- this was in seventh grade or so. I then proceeded to spend the next two years creatively crippled -- I subscribed so much to Field's theories on plot points and 30-60-30 structure, I thought that simply figuring out a way to fit my ideas within those would give me success. Thing was, I could never figure out how to do that with the stories I wanted to tell, and I felt like a bad writer as a result.

I mentioned this in the other thread, but I think Christopher Vogler's The Writer's Journey is a much better book about screenwriting than either Field or McKee. Vogler walks the reader through the various archetypes of Carl Jung and Joseph Campbell, giving both classic and contemporary examples, yet illustrating the variety of ways the Hero's Journey can be applied to film -- the last section applies the steps and archetypes of the Hero's Journey to films ranging from "The Lion King" to "Titanic" to "Pulp Fiction." It's more of a handbook than anything, and it emphasises originality above all -- taking the archetypes and finding a new way to spin them rather than just ripping off the basic Campbell mode a la "Star Wars." That, coupled with a paper I wrote in high school on "Mythic Archetypes in the Contemporary Ensemble Drama," did a lot to help me as a writer and a storyteller. It's probably the best straight-up screenwriting guide that I've read.

I also have gotten a lot out of The Screenwriter Within by D.B. Gilles, which is more advice and personal anecdotes than rigid, McKee like "YOU MUST DO THIS OR YOU WILL NEVER BE A SUCCESS," and it actually has some pretty worthwhile exercises in it. The only drawback here is that Gilles occasionally uses examples from his own work, and they're pretty eye-rollingly ridiculous.

When I was in film school, I took a screenwriting class with Gilles's buddy Sheldon Woodbury, and I loved it. Woodbury wrote a book about writing the action screenplay called Cool Million that's interspersed with interviews with various million-dollar-screenwriters. It's actually a decent book, although my affection for Woodbury is more as a teacher than as a writer.

This is an awesome idea for a thread, and I'm looking forward to participating in it. I'll be back later with some more thoughts about my influences and my current projects, but I wanted to throw out that initial salvo of stuff.

But because i think Greg does not have his head up his ass, I am now going to re-examine the issue.

See? The internet CAN make a difference.

I've found good writing advice from Ted Elliot's and Terry Rossio's Wordplay-site. What makes it good is that it's free, the advice is very practical and the writers have pretty good filmography to back their statements with.

While I use Final Draft, I've found that I can't actually write in front of the computer. I mean, I get distracted far too easily on the computer and end up surfing the net/watching trailers/playing crappy shockwave games.

So, what my method for the last few months has been is to just buy a fresh 188-side notebook for each new screenplay I start. I write it in correct format on the page. And, for me, it's worked amazingly and I've managed to finish 3 first drafts.

So if you're easily distracted in front of the computer and know you can write a whole lot more than you've been doing, I totally recommend actually using pen and paper. It can be a much easier way of getting your work out and when you type your first draft into Final Draft you'll be able to see stuff you need to alter/change much easier. Makes for a better working draft to show people.

I suggest if you're looking for a good screen writing book etc. check out Save The Cat, by Blake Synder. Fantastic read.

Has anyone tried the open source screenwriting software Celtx? How does it compare to Final Draft?

the deal with a lot of those screenwriting books... they aren't written for most of you guys. they are written for people who aren't tremendously familiar with film. of course the techniques seem like common knowledge. it's because to you, they ARE. maybe you didn't think of them in those certain terms or with charts and graphs and notecards, but if you've seen several hundred movies you pick up the trends that work and the trends that don't.

the only way to get better at writing, the ONLY way, is to write every single day. sure watching movies and reading good scripts and screenwriting books helps slightly, but writing and getting feedback is the only way to do it.

thinking about how field and mckee and goldman think about screenwriting has helped me, but no revelations lie within their pages as far as i'm concerned... i learn more sitting down over a week for a total of 20 hours and hammering out a first act.

writing is rewriting as far as i'm concerned. the minor hurdle is the get the thing on the page and with some form. then real work begins for me. how many drafts did shyamalan go through on sixth sense?

I'm using Celtx currently and it's pretty damn impressive. It has some really handy features (such as files on characters, storyboards, etc) and is FREE. A must-download if you lack Final Draft.

I also have similar problems as mole with distractions (ADHD will do that to ya) so I just disconnect the modem.

Kudos to Greg for starting this thread. Happy to lurk for the time being, although if I can think of anything entertaining or enlightening from my own experience I'll chime in.

Right now, though, I'm off to Amazon to buy SAVE THE CAT.

Well, I just downloaded Celtx, toyed around with it and realised I should've got this kind of software years ago. I've done all my writing with Word and the formatting is a real pain in the arse with it. If I'd try to punch out 100+ pages of properly formatted screenplay with Word, I'd probably go mental at page 40. So thank you all for bringing this to my attention.

I haven't done a feature-length screenplay yet. I've only written scripts for short films, the longest ones being around half an hour long. It's very educational to see your text being interpreted (or fucked up) by other people.

I actually find I'm the opposite, when it comes to writing a treatment I tend to go for pen and paper, but onece I'm writing an actual script I have to do it on the computer because I'm constantly changing my mind about whether dialogue is working, or which order scenes should be in. Being on the computer lets me just write with the freedom to know I can change things whenever I feel like it. Paper would clog me up to no end.

I had a book that really helped me with writing. It wasn't a screen writing one just creative writing, but unfortunatly I lent it out to a friend and cannot remember the yitle or authors. What I find the best aid are those extra terrific DVD's that actually feature writers commentaries. Hearing from writers you respect what their process is which things they changed for what reasons, what got changed that was out of their control, what they wish they had have done better etc.

One thing I've learned about writing from directing is keep in mind what is going to be engaging to direct, not just what's engaging to read. Quite a few times I've come across scenes I've written that on paper were great but because I'd pict a fairly mundane setting it became a real chore to get through it all when it came to direct it.

Ain't that the truth. Directing also teaches you small but important things you won't probably pick up from a screenwriting book. Like introducing your characters. That's something I didn't pay attention to when I was "just" writing. If it's somehow important to know the name of your character, have someone say it out loud. You don't think about that because when you're writing, the names are always visible:

MURDOCH
If I'd try to punch out 100+ pages of
properly formatted screenplay with Word,
I'd probably go mental at page 40.

But on screen it's just some guy saying the words beneath the name.

I ran into that problem making props, a character recieved a letter, and as I was making it I realised I've never given this character a last name.


Another problem I ran into that messed me up was I'd write a scene that suited being shot in the day time then one would suit being at night, and so on throughout the script, and the story is cutting between three sets of characters.Latter in the script one of the character is being interogated by the police about where he was on which day, and all of a sudden I had to figure out what day each scene happened on. It hadn't mattered at all up until that point so I hadn't kept track at all. It ended up being quite a mind bender figuring it all out.

Excellent idea for a thread. Just last year I finished my first screenplay and, after months and months of revisions, simply being able to type The End felt like an amazing accomplishment. Looking back on the piece, I now recognize numerous flaws, but all in all I'm satisfied with having completed one of the bastards. I'm now in the process of structuring my second work and hope to have it completed by the end of June.

My first screenplay was written on plain old Word and, yes, setting those margins was an painstaking business. Once the margins were finally set, the actual writing progressed smoothly enough. With dialogue I had to be careful not to exceed the right alignment, but once I found the rhythm, it wasn't so bad. Even so, I fully intend to splurge for Final Draft on the next go round.

One of the books I read in preparation was Good Scripts, Bad Scripts by Tom Pope. The author selects 25 examples from throughout the history of cinema and shows how and why each screenplay succeeds or fails. Prior to each chapter I would read a copy of the topic screenplay and watch the movie. Doing so proved an excellent immersion into the form, not to mention a great catalyst to see some films I had put off watching for far too long (Sunset Blvd anyone?).

I'm going to make the completely ridiculous statement that the first movie that made me realise the importance of character was the first X-Men.

I use Final Draft as well, it's pretty damn spiffy. I get shit done pretty quickly.

Having never tried Final draft myself, can I ask if there'd be an advantage to someone like me who essentiall only writes stuff to direct myself, so formatting isn't much of an issue (I'm not going to throw my own script in the bin and not make it because of non industry formatting). Are there any over advantages to it?

Not really, if there's method enough to your own system.

I have that book, it's great, especially reading about what doesn't work in the bad scripts.

Great thread, Greg.

I just finished putting the final touches on the pitch package for my animated series. From initial concept to finish it took 13 months and changed drastically every step of the way.

Books I used included:

How to Write for Animation - Jeffrey Scott (decent read from one of the greats in the business)

The Moose That Roared - Keith Scott (a history of Ward Animation)

Television Writing From the Inisde Out - Larry Brody (good read if you want to get into TV writing)

The Hero With a Thousand Faces - Joseph Campbell (a must read for any writer)

On Writing - Stephen King (Even if you hate King you should read this if you want to be a writer)

Famous Monsters of Filmland - Magazine (research into obscure monsters)

Ultimate Spiderman Trade #1 - Various Artists (check the back of this collection for one of the best pitch packages ever)

Final Draft is heaven. I could not imagine doing any other way.

I've been having trouble getting my second act started. I know how my story ends, I have some great third act scenes, but the damnable second act has me stumped.

How do some you deal with difficult plot points?

Thanks for the this thread, Greg.

It's terribly easy. All you do is type the words, the rest is done for you, but if your own methods work well enough, stick with it.

I've done shorter stories so my second acts are mostly shorter than usual but what I do when I write a three-act story is I break the second act into two parts. So you end up with an act that's about rising to something and an act that's about descenting to something. Usually it's about a character realizing the shit he's in by the end of the second act and trying to do something about it in the third act. Pretty nuts'n bolts-stuff but it works for me.

Sometimes I deal with difficult plot points by repeating the word "fuck" loudly and throwing stuff around. Then I try to find another angle to view the problem.

I tend to have problems giving up control. I'll know the perfect song for this scene and the perfect way to shoot it and I want to just say so, but I know that's the kiss of death.

A lot of love for Final Draft here - personally I use Movie Magic Screenwriter. Not for any particular reason except that I started a script using their demo and turns out that after 40 pages the demo locks up, prompts you to buy the full version and you can't do ANYTHING with what you have, save print it with large watermarks. But even though it sounds like I painted myself into a corner with it, I do really really like it and it sounds like it has pretty much the same features as FD.

As far as this patricular script, I'm finding it really really hard to decide on an ending. Usually when you create a story in your head, you can kinda see the progression (or that's how I usually work it out anyway), but I just can't see it here. It's driving me crazy.

I almost always have the ending before I start anything, whether it's the end to a feature or the end to a television series that I'm writing the pilot for. As I write, I'll usually make notes about what's to come -- scenes I want to write, beats I want to hit -- but as I said in the other thread, writing for me is largely one of self-discovery (Dr. Pretension on line 1), improvisation, and constant rewriting.

Richard, I hear you on ceding control regarding music, which is why, more often than not, I'll write a draft or a version of a scene with the music cues written in, and then take them out before sending it out for public consumption. It just really helps me, as a writer, to visualize a scene with the music accompanying it -- mostly because my choices are so esoteric or intrinsically tied to the characters, action, or setting of the story.

There's also the cheat which I've used in my last couple of scripts -- find a way to work in a song that you feel sets the tone of the script in a non-obvious fashion. For this horror script I've been working on, I had some of the characters singing it when they were coming back from a bar. (Not like in "Almost Famous," though.) And this summer camp script that's taken most of my time over the last two years, I have a character who's playing guitar in the background of some scenes, and the songs that he's playing usually comment on the action. And there's kareoke, too. Both these things -- the kareoke as a social activity and a guy playing guitar -- are sort of communal and identifiable experiences to anyone who's worked at a summer camp, which is what I'm trying to achieve, so it sounds kind of quirky and lame now that I'm writing about it, but I think it's working. And I'm actually planning to shoot this script myself, so I don't have to worry about that per se.

See, my problem with endings is I'll normally get the closing shot in my head--most of the time free of context--and then I have to take what I've started and write it so that I get to that image at the conclusion. It can be maddening, because although most of the time I can see WHY I'm imagining this shot in my head (normally ties in with a theme or arc), I don't know HOW it's supposed to get there.

Yeah, but those last few scenes, when you know that last scene is just around the corner and it's all come together...I wouldn't trade that for anything in the world.

I'll drink to that. That's when you all of a sudden don't mind that it's 4am and you haven't had any real sleep in three days--you finished the fucker.

I agree. Novels etc on screenwriting are more or less entertaining guidelines. Regardless, Save the Cat is one of the better ones.

One thng I learned from J. Michael Straczynski (you can debate the quality of the mans work, but I think this technique is sound) is to let the characters dictate where the story goes. He sets up an obstical or a Mcguffin, then says which character want something more, what will the do to get it, what problems will arise from their actions etc.
While I don't do this for an entire script I do find it useful when I get stuck on a plot point. Just step back (or forward) and let the characters write me out of a hole. If that fails I'll soak in the tub where I know noone can bother me with real world problems and just think on it till something clicks.

Another thing I tend to do is merge characters. I'll get to a point where the characters seem to run out of steam and there seems no way to move forward and I find merging characters (so long as they're compatible) can work.
For example in my last screenplay I had a character who was struggling with his wife cheating on him and another character Who was pregnant with the antagonists baby. I merged the wife and pregnant chick and it lead to an entire story line where the antagonist convinced the husband to kill his wifes baby.

I have done a lot of my best thinking in the tub. And the shower. And long walks.

For anyone reading this thread who is very new to the process, this helped me alot when I first started out. From the Chin himself http://www.bruce-campbell.com/blogs/...ice-script.htm

No fan of the Pixar work ethic, eh?

So, does anyone want to share stuff they've written/been working on? I'm sure we can come up with some basic ground rules for those of us that are sketchy about sharing. I just feel talking about writing in generalities can only go so far. I have no problem sharing, but I don't want to be the egomaniacal fuck to go first.

Go for it, Rath. I have to wait for my laptop to be repaired before I can pull off my short film script. Then we can play "Where did Matt rip this off of?" for a while.

Edit to add: Nothing in the world works better for my writing or drawing than putting on a movie score in the background. Completely calms me down.

All right, I'll bite, because I, like fictional former Vice President John Hoynes, am an egomaniac who needs to be told what people think of him.

Anyway, for the last couple of years, I've been working on a concept about life behind the scenes at a summer camp. I tried to write it as "The West Wing at summer camp," I've been told it came out like "Grey's Anatomy at summer camp." After the initial pilot, I wrote three additional episodes before scrapping them and starting fresh with the same characters, some of the same situations, but with the intent to turn it into a feature. Which is what I've been doing since February.

Since I'm not that big of an egomaniac, here's the first episode:

http://www.freewebs.com/budleonard/RF101.pdf

Greg, first of all, "serial killers vs. vampires" is a fucking great concept. As for the change in tone, I addressed that sort of in my most recent post, but I agree with you -- sometimes you can start out writing one thing, and wind up writing another. It also doesn't help that my writing style is very self-deprecating, and I'll usually make fun of myself or the situation in the action. Which is totally Shane Black, I know, but I think I've found my own voice after years of struggling to be this guy or that guy.

But I think, Greg, it's awesome when your characters start speaking for themselves rather than the meat puppets you want them to be, so you should go with it.

I'm cursed.

I've had an idea I've kicked around in fits and starts since, oh, college, one which involved a young man with a profound fear of death who finds himself in the midst of a secret war between the vampires and the zombies in a large metropolitan city. All the other supernatural creatures take sides, and through the course of the fight, our protagonist learns to accept death as a natural end to things after being surrounded by so many who would long for it but are denied.

Then of course comes Underworld and Vampire Apocalypse and Greg's idea and about a million other iterations of the basic idea.

Yup, cursed.

This is the point where I talk about my story idea that I was developing back before Underworld was announced -- I was pitching it as "James Mitchner meets Interview with The Vampire meets Braveheart" -- about tracking a centuries long war between vampires, werewolves, monster hunters, and the real life historical figures that got intertwined with their respective fates. Then Underworld was announced, and I quit on it. I started work on it again, this time using "Near Dark" and "Preacher" comics as the mold -- then Underworld came out, did gangbusters, and I once again, quit on it. It wasn't until last year that I finally found a way to take that basic concept -- filtered down through many permutations into something I can best describe as "Thelma and Louise meets Mean Streets/Scorsese with vampires and werewolves" -- and start work on it again.

I've got two ideas that appear workable right now: One is a two-person story about a young obituary editor and an old woman who wants to learn about his job. It's still playing too much like Harold and Maude but I think I've cracked the ending.

The other is about giant robots and the people who scratch out a living operating them-- think the rodeo circuit, monster trucks, traveling carnivals, the odd muscle-for-hire gig, all rolled together. I have the beginning and end, but too many ideas about the middle.

Isn't that the worst? I was pretty deep into a tornado-chasers story before Twister came along and ruined the concept. I take heart in knowing my ideas are potentially sellable...