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Mitt Romney and the emergence of anti-Mormon rhetoric

post #1 of 38
Thread Starter 
I consider myself pretty lefty. Not just L.A. lefty, but Austin lefty. Granola-chugging, salamander-hugging lefty. But something’s been bothering me for awhile – actually, since this article appeared on the AP wire on February 24th. Entitled “Romney Family Tree Has Polygamy Branch” goes through Mitt Romney’s past to illustrate how his great-grandfather was a polygamist and how – scandal – as a family of long-time Mormons, there are a number of other polygamists in his family tree.

That’s the Associated Press. The blogosphere – notably a place called Down With Tyranny! takes it a step further (as the blogosphere was born to do) calling it “the Shadowy Church of Latter Day Saints (the Mormon cult). The author refers to Mormonism as “more like a fraternal self-help organization than a Christian religion” and that there are “many extremely highly placed members of the Mormon cult in very high places – with a lot of money to throw around.” The greatest is that at the end of the article, he adds, “don’t get me wrong; there are also normal people who are Mormons, from Arthur Kane of the New York Dolls and Brenaden Steineckert of Rancid to Gladys Knight, Butch Cassidy and Bowie’s legendary guitar player Mick Ronson.”

See, this is why liberals can’t get ahead. In an attempt to seem hip, they can allow themselves to sound like utter fucking morons. Seriously, have you seen New York Doll? You want to call Arthur Kane fucking normal?!

I was a Mormon for a number of months back in high school. The church was huge where I went to school – Spring, Texas – so big, that there’s now a temple there so members no longer have to drive up to Dallas for ceremonies that aren’t just done in the church (like weddings). I have been several religions. Hell, I went through a conversion to the Zion Christian Church in South Africa two months ago. I’ve taken Catholicism classes, been baptized as a Lutheran, got married in a Jewish ceremony (my wife is Jewish) and attended mosque back in Houston. I find religion fascinating, though I am an atheist.

Mormons are just one more fucking branch of Protestantism. That’s fucking it. Yes, a lot of people have problems believing the veracity of Joseph Smith’s claims regarding how the Book of Mormon came into being. But hey, churches have been born on crazier shit and will continue to be (seriously, lets talk flying spaghetti monsters and a monarch’s desire for divorce). The Mormon church has its share of problems – not allowing blacks to hold the priesthood until the mid-seventies, the secondary role of women in traditionally male roles – but so have many faiths. Read John Howard Griffin’s great civil rights essay Racist Sins of Christians. He’s the guy who did the much-reviled Black Like Me experiment, but was actually a kind of odd, searching Christian who – frankly – wasn’t trying to do some sort of exploitation bit that Black Like Me is seen as now. He was a good friend to the Trappist monk Thomas Merton, one of the most fascinating Christian minds of the twentieth century. Both men made a career writing about the problems they saw in their churches, but both men shared a strong and true faith.

Which brings me back to Mitt Romney. Presidential campaigns are muddy, murky ugly things and always have been – from last-minute reveals about out-of-wedlock children (oh, you cad, Grover Cleveland!) to Willie Horton and the LBJ-produced anti-Goldwater nuke ad – but in a land of religious freedom, it bothers me when someone’s religion is used against them. It’s like the idea that Kennedy should never have been allowed to be elected president because he would have to follow the Pope in Rome over the American people. That myth, perpetuated throughout his campaign by the Republicans, made a boogeyman out of someone else’s religion – suddenly making it seem more strange, more “shadowy” to borrow DownWithTyranny’s phrase. In an era where we’re at FUCKING WAR with anti-religious overtones coloring so much of the rhetoric (quick – say “Islamofascist” three times fast), the fact that Romney’s religiosity is being hammered at here is just one more indication of how far into fear this country has slid. Anything that even hints at being of “the other” is used to drive the herd forward.

And I’m not stupid (well…). Having a sitting president who is all about God in a way that makes me see him as a psychopath is going to make any electorate gun shy. But these articles aren’t attacking Romney himself, they’re attacking Mormonism in general. I just don’t like it.
post #2 of 38
Excellent, well-written rant. And you're right to be pissed. We haven't had freedom of religious expression here for a while (unless you're one of the primary denominations of Christian) and separation of church and state is a joke.

Incidentally, I heard Romney on the radio the other day. His voice is like butter. I kept zoning out on what he was saying because I really like how he was saying it. It will be nice to have someone who can speak as president again.
post #3 of 38
As long as our species is flawed enough to rely on the psychological crutch that is religion, which by it's very nature is divisive, this type of behavior will flourish. It appeals to a very basic part of human nature, the "us and them" idea, and is a perfect tool to use in the political electioneering environment.
post #4 of 38
Well said SJR. As a former Mormon, raised in the church in Missouri and now living the life of a sinner here in Utah no less, I couldn't agree more.

The sad thing is that I'm sure that article you referenced is only the beginning.
post #5 of 38
I won't lie, I think that mormonism has some pretty weird attributes. I'll be damned though if most of the nicest people I've met weren't mormon.
post #6 of 38
Oddly enough, the Mormons I've encountered have, personality-wise reminded most of the Scientologists I've met. Polite, earnest, and just little too friendly and well-dressed for me to be completely comfortable.
post #7 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by KaPabLe
I won't lie, I think that mormonism has some pretty weird attributes.
And transubstantiation is a perfectly normal attribute.

Most any religion has "weird attributes" when view from the outside. Whats amusing are the bizarre things people simply accept without a second thought when they're raised with them.
post #8 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smilin' Jack Ruby
But these articles aren’t attacking Romney himself, they’re attacking Mormonism in general. I just don’t like it.
Welcome to modern America, SJR. Christianity, in all its forms, is one of the few subgroups that people here seem to think that it is OK to denigrate.

My test for statements for putting any group down is simple. If people would be offended by the following....

I think all ______ are really stupid monkeys, they're not even really human.

Blacks, Jews, Whites, Moslem, Christian, whatever. Offensive is offensive.

Prejudice is alive and well here in the States, and its strongest supporters are on the left and right side of the political spectrum.

I was wondering why no one here had anything to say about Hillary Clinton's performance in the Southern Church a few weeks back where she was mimicking/mocking the speech patterns of churchgoers as she read a poem to the congregation. From the audio recordings, the churchgoers were eating it up like candy.
post #9 of 38
Quote:
I was wondering why no one here had anything to say about Hillary Clinton's performance in the Southern Church a few weeks back where she was mimicking/mocking the speech patterns of churchgoers as she read a poem to the congregation. From the audio recordings, the churchgoers were eating it up like candy.
Probably because they realized she wasn't mocking them, she was mimicking a famous civil rights speech. She was doing it very badly, but it wasn't mean spirited.
post #10 of 38
I've been friends with Mormons, to me, it's just another religion. I have major problems with the fundamentalists (who aren't part of the real LDS Church), and I really, really wish somebody in the mainstream church would step the fuck up and acknowledge the church's role in Mountain Meadows. (But I get why they don't, because they if they do, they're liable.) Other than that, I have no problems with them.
post #11 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by kernel
As long as our species is flawed enough to rely on the psychological crutch that is religion, which by it's very nature is divisive, this type of behavior will flourish. It appeals to a very basic part of human nature, the "us and them" idea, and is a perfect tool to use in the political electioneering environment.
"us vs them" is not unique at all to religion, and it's a very human flaw that manifests itself in almost every area of social interaction.

Remember, this is the same planet were people can become violent against their fellow human being, based on the result of a sports game.
post #12 of 38
Most of my family, a core of eight, are Mormon. I was raised Mormon. After 13, I stopped going to church and just 'dropped out' of the whole thing, and nobody really had a problem with it. All the church members I've met have all been extremely nice people. Because of this, the Mormon religion gets a pass with me. They don't discriminate, and it will be rare you find them upset. They're just usually upstanding people.

With that said, they are all rooting for Romney. But after seeing this, I'm pretty sour on the guy. Yeah, it was 14 years ago, but the fact you've changed every single one of your stances for the big issues, seemingly just for the elections, that's not going to inspire me to get behind you.
post #13 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCapitanAmerica
"
Remember, this is the same planet were people can become violent against their fellow human being, based on the result of a sports game.
That's a pretty thin comparison. For sports to compare to the feuding between Christianity and Islam you'd need supporters of the same team to engage in a millenia of bloodshed over whether they played "football" or "soccer".
post #14 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz
That's a pretty thin comparison. For sports to compare to the feuding between Christianity and Islam you'd need supporters of the same team to engage in a millenia of bloodshed over whether they played "football" or "soccer".
Wasn't the accusation that today's Iraq war was fueled by "oil"?

The examples of the past are not to be dismissed, but they need to be admired in context too. Truly the Crusades and many other wars were based on much more than religion, often religion was just the excuse that hid the true motivations of it just like countries find nationalistic or even racist reasons to start wars.

Heck, there was a war in South America due to a soccer match. I'm not saying sports is the root of all evil, but just pointing out that the most absurd non religious reasons can bring about the most irrational responses on every topic. To think that fanaticism only exists in a religious context, is to ignore reality.

It's also ironic wrt this thread.
post #15 of 38
Sorry, but when Romney said, "We need to have a person of faith lead the country" he's just approving of the same kind of devisiveness that's being thrown his way for being a Mormon. He's just chastised people for not being on the right side of the Jesus fence when it turns out he's not on the right side of it himself.
post #16 of 38
Quote:
Blacks, Jews, Whites, Moslem, Christian, whatever. Offensive is offensive.
I have to disagree with you here. In general, people are always making the claim that criticism of religion is in the same ballpark as criticism of someone's race, nationality, or ethnicity. That is a completely false assertion. Religion is a belief system, no matter what form it takes, and as such is completely open to criticism, questioning and yes, even ridicule for seeming absurd practices.

Equating criticism of belief with criticism of something someone just "is" by their biology, or happanstance of birth is a not a valid comparison. For every Mormon laughing at a Scientologist, there is a Catholic laughing at the Mormon, and a Baptist laughing at the Catholic and an Atheist laughing at all of them.
post #17 of 38
And we are back to square one.

Then Jack Ruby's first post is a waste of time and he should just accept that Romney is fair game because he's a Mormon. Nice one.

Religion is often tied to culture. I don't have to point out that one's culture is often defined by nationality and race. In a certain sense, there is a type of religious mockery that is insulting to a person's culture (see any of the numerous anti Islamic comments on the web).

I don't have a problem with criticisms about religion or no religion, but that also means that you should be able to criticize cultures and not single out religion as the one thing you can just make fun of.
post #18 of 38
Romney shouldn't be attacked for being a Mormon. Flat out. There shouldn't even be any debate on this.

BUT... what he says while running should be intensely scrutinized, and if he's going to speak on faith matters with any authority, it's going to be examined. I don't think he should be exempt from that. What he says on the campaign trail is fair game, just like everyone else.
post #19 of 38
Everything about him is fair game...just like everyone else.
post #20 of 38
Nordling is 100% correct here.

And to the person who submitted that there has been 'millennia' of conflict between Christians and Muslims: wrong.

Most of the inter-faith conflict between these two sects (the Crusades, Turkish expansions, Moorish invasion of Spain) has been strongly rooted in demographic and political exploitation. Do religions disagree, to the point of the violence? All the time. But these religious disagreements, almost to the tee, are philosophical differences exaggerated by external political and social pressures. Do Muslims and Jews hate each other? In many instances, yes. But in most instances this isn't because one faction is Muslim and the other Jewish . . . the political and social prerogatives far outweigh the religious 'differences.

As for Romney . . . I could care less than he's Mormon. He could be Protestant, Buddhist, Muslim . . . that doesn't enter my presidential calculus. Maybe I'm just young, and that will change one day. The real issue with Romney is that you have no idea what his positions are, as they've changed to suit his political objectives. Focus on that, and ignore his religious background - that's the only responsible tact the media can take here.

As to the idea everything about him is fair game . . . I would say no, its not. The media and political operatives might make it fair game, but that doesn't make it just. If it's all fair game, then lets make an issue of Elizabeth Edwards cancer. No, fuck you, lets not. This doesn't serve the race or the public: it serves the media. Coming from a media-centric standpoint, I find that disgusting. There might not be enough of us in this country to effectively register our disgust, but that's not going to force me on my back in acceptance. Can the person do the job? Does he have a plan, an idea, or a group of thinkers to consult? Can he execute the most important job on the planet in an efficient, honest, and effective answer? Give me those. I dont care if he's a Mormon, black or white, or anything else. That's all I want to know. The media finds ratings in the tertiary here, and fuck them for that.
post #21 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
And to the person who submitted that there has been 'millennia' of conflict between Christians and Muslims: wrong.
Well, I did mean "millenium", but that's hardly the point. I was speaking in broad terms, because any significant dispute is not going to be reducible to one single cause or issue. So yeah, the conflicts between Christians/Jews/Muslims are about more than theological differences, but after a (very short) while, the motivations and the justifications get so mixed up that the distinction scarcely seems to matter. Right now, for example, US soldiers are fighting and dying to create a democracy in Iraq, even if that was only justification #4 when the war started.

Back on topic: I won't be voting against Romney because he's a Mormon. I'll be voting against him because he's a Republican, and the last 6 years have convinced me that that party needs to sit in the corner for a while and think about what it's done.
post #22 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz
Back on topic: I won't be voting against Romney because he's a Mormon. I'll be voting against him because he's a Republican, and the last 6 years have convinced me that that party needs to sit in the corner for a while and think about what it's done.
With a "Dunce" hat on and a t-shirt that says "Paste Eater."
post #23 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny
With a "Dunce" hat on and a t-shirt that says "Paste Eater."
The same can be said of democrats. What this country need is a third party president. I think from now on I will be voting for the third with the best chance to win. At this point I would rather vote for Ross Perot or Satan then any republican or democrat candidate.
post #24 of 38
Hate on the dems all you want; I'm not saying they'll lead us to Utopia. But the major fuck-ups of the last several years lie squarely in the GOP's lap.
post #25 of 38
Satan's got a killer platform, I hear.
post #26 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by eenin
The same can be said of democrats. What this country need is a third party president. I think from now on I will be voting for the third with the best chance to win. At this point I would rather vote for Ross Perot or Satan then any republican or democrat candidate.
Satan won't be running with his heart condition being so serious. Vice-President was enough for him.
post #27 of 38
I really don't think the system is any more corrupt today than it historically has been (with the anomalous example of W) . . . politics always has been, and will remain, a power trip. And money doesn't bother if power isn't involved. I think both parties are more than capable of producing qualified, exemplary candidates. And if the Republican party doesn't get its shit together, it will go the way of the Whigs . . . big money protects its interests, and incompetence isn't always in it's interest.

Basically, you're gonna have a hell of time convincing me that H. Ross Perot is more qualified than a John Edwards or a Bill Richardson. We've had presidents that governed as independents (from their party at least) in Clinton and Eisenhower. But no way a non-aligned candidate is gonna get in, barring some sort of catastrophic change to our current social climate (and the Wastelander never counts that out).
post #28 of 38
Fundie Xtians will turn on the Jews and Catholics as soon as they wipe out the Muslims. Its inevitable. Its what a religion that's drunk with power will do.
post #29 of 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov
I think both parties are more than capable of producing qualified, exemplary candidates.

We've had presidents that governed as independents (from their party at least) in Clinton and Eisenhower.
I agree that both parties are capable of producing great presidents.

That being said, your claim that Clinton was independent from his party is like me saying my brother's not a drag queen.

We'd both be in deep denial.
post #30 of 38
I heard on NPR this morning that a mormon college was giving Dick Cheney an honorary degree. You know you're in bad shape when you have to turn to Dick Cheney for some positive PR.
post #31 of 38
Romney further attempted to distance himself from his potentially deal-breaking Mormonism by telling 60 Minutes’ Mike Wallace that “he can't image anything more awful than polygamy.”

Well, of the top of my head, there’s identity theft, a bird flu outbreak, the Golden Gate Bridge exploding, your arm getting amputated by a table saw, oversleeping on the first day of your new job, getting trampled by bison, your neighbor turning out to be a vampire, a propane tank exploding while on a camping trip, losing your CD key, tainted puppy food entering puppy food supply, the sun burning out of fuel, your new $3200 HDTV breaking and you didn’t get the warranty and there’s jack shit you can do about it basically, getting tortured, having diarrhea on a first date, the dead rising from their graves to eat/harm the living, a tornado destroying Disney World, developing tourette’s syndrome, a Guitar Hero II update breaking your XBOX 360, getting colon cancer, a hostile alien invasion, finding a roach underneath your sheets just before bedtime, a Corbin-project-style A.I. takes over the world, your fly is down for the entire first day of high school, Hitler clones running around, or nuclear annihilation, and that’s just off the top of my head.
post #32 of 38
That sounds rough. You should probably marry two or more women to help you out with all that weighty shit you have to deal with.
post #33 of 38
None of that stuff actually happened to me (yet).
post #34 of 38
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minsky
Romney further attempted to distance himself from his potentially deal-breaking Mormonism by telling 60 Minutes’ Mike Wallace that “he can't image anything more awful than polygamy.”

Well, of the top of my head, there’s identity theft, a bird flu outbreak, the Golden Gate Bridge exploding, your arm getting amputated by a table saw, oversleeping on the first day of your new job, getting trampled by bison, your neighbor turning out to be a vampire, a propane tank exploding while on a camping trip, losing your CD key, tainted puppy food entering puppy food supply, the sun burning out of fuel, your new $3200 HDTV breaking and you didn’t get the warranty and there’s jack shit you can do about it basically, getting tortured, having diarrhea on a first date, the dead rising from their graves to eat/harm the living, a tornado destroying Disney World, developing tourette’s syndrome, a Guitar Hero II update breaking your XBOX 360, getting colon cancer, a hostile alien invasion, finding a roach underneath your sheets just before bedtime, a Corbin-project-style A.I. takes over the world, your fly is down for the entire first day of high school, Hitler clones running around, or nuclear annihilation, and that’s just off the top of my head.
I would disagree with the more run-of-the-mill of your suggestions (meaning "amputation by saw" not "nuclear annihilation"). Polygamy is generally cheered by modern men (who have never been around it - generally westerners) who see it simply as a way of being married and having children, but also having multiple sexual partners.

For the most part, however, it would be considered slavery by women. In cultures where polygamy was practiced beyond merely amongst the Mormons, polygamy is/was as much an identity-stripping form of degradation that turned "wives" into little more than beasts of burden. In effect, slaves to the house and slaves to their husband.

For the Mormons, polygamy was - in fact - a process by which A: more Mormons would be produced and B: would allow for more children to be birthed more rapidly in order to help with the difficulties of frontier life as the members of the LDS church were chased three-fourths of the way across a nation built on the idea of religious freedom. It is no less a degradation, but the reasons there were typically born out of a believed utilitarianism, not sexual appetite (necessarily).

Yes, women have spent millenia in positions secondary to men, but polygamy is even a worse step further. As, for me, slavery is one of the single most inhuman things that can happen to a man or woman, I would say that - yes - polygamy is right up there with the most awful things in the world.
post #35 of 38
Yeah, I guess I don't know much about polygamy outside of "Big Love" (and I'm certainly not an advocate of it) but I'd never put polygamy up there with famine or genocide. In the cases where it has adopted the attributes of slavery, it's definitely getting close to those, so I see where you're coming from.

Most of the stuff on list was just a joke in bad taste.
post #36 of 38
I'm guessing it was just a figure of speech. A little hyperbole to make his point.
post #37 of 38
polygamy is shweeet.
post #38 of 38
"I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left." -- Joseph Smith, prophet of God and founder of the Mormon church
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