The Greatest Baseball Player Ever

Silly roundeye, skip to 2:15 left

Ruth. Mays is second and was a better overall offensive player and outfielder but since he didn't have back-to-back 20 win seasons as a pitcher I go with Ruth.

two words

WILD THING

He's a better pitcher than DirecTV pitchman. I'll give him that.

I nominate Frank from the black team. He's a hero to faceless obese people everywhere.

Its hard to put anyone ahead of Ruth without bringing the Negro Leagues into the argument, which, while a perfectly valid critique, applies to the contributions of all players before 1947.

I suppose its safe then to talk about The Greatest Baseball Player Post-WWII, but thats hardly as evocative as The Greatest Baseball Player Ever.

Post-WWII, I'd go with Willie Mays.

I think it's pretty clearly Ruth - the guy's records stood for freakin' EVER and he still is #3 on the all-time home runs list despite juiced balls, juiced players, etc.

Battling for 2nd is a cluster of legends like Cobb, Mays, Williams; I think Hank Aaron gets overlooked in the conversation - the guy was just a hitting machine for about 20 years.

I would have to agree with you on Mays. Funny thing is if Bonds never went to the juice he would have ended his career with about a 285-290 average hit 550-600 Homers and stolen his 500 bags along with his multiple gold gloves. He would have had to have been in the arguement as well. Its too bad he went to the roids and people now forget how truly great he was when he was totally clean.

Ruth, no question. What he was able to do during his era was mind-boggling. Take into consideration his "training" and it's even more insane.

I am not a Bonds hater like most but just the black cloud over him the past 7 years about his steroid use has to take him out of consideration. Its pretty well known that he used and you cant say that about guys like Mays,Aaron, Ruth, Mantle hell even Ken Griffey Jr before all his injury problems. Like it or not his career no matter how good he was is tainted in the eyes of many.

It's hard to argue against Ruth. It's the pitching that really separates him. After him you can make arguments for Mays, Honus Wagner, Ted Williams, and Aaron.

Greatest player I ever saw play, current players excluded, is Aaron at the end of his career. Really, calling him a hitting machine is accurate but discounts what a complete all around player he was. He could steal a base, had a strong arm, and had enough range to play centerfield when asked. Of retired players that I've seen play, Rickey Henderson, Cal Ripken, and Mike Schmidt probably occupy the next tier.

Active players probably include Bonds, Clemens (I'm not counting him as retired yet), Maddux, and ARod in about that order.

Ruth easily. Not only did he revolutionize the home run to crazy degrees having like 50 a season and the second place guy had like 15, but he also hit for around a 350 average, fuck.

I'll tell you who never gets brought up in these discussions and should be is Rogers Hornsby. Yes his first name ends in an s and the fucking guy hit over 400 I can't remember howw many times but about 4, and he hit HRs in the 30s a time or two I think. I think he's better than that dirty son of a bitch Cobb. One year he hit 435 or something.

Well I dont know if Griffey was or not but most people seem to think he was clean. Plus a little more evidence is his skills declined with age while Barry's skyrocketed.

There is a black cloud over his accomplishments because atleast 2 of those accomplishments were becuase of steroids. Hell even his 350 batting averages late in his career where because of steroids. He was a 300 hitter who hit 35-40 before roids and I 350 45 homer guy in half the at bats after steroids. If that isnt a black cloud over his numbers what the hell is. Like I said I dont hate Barry or even dislike him but any rational person can look at how he played in his latter years and say Jesus he got twice as good as he already was once he went on roids.

I hate the "well spitballs and pinetar are cheating too" arguments. Spitballs, pine-tar, scuffing and sharpening spikes while rules violations can be clearly identified on the field of play. Everytime Perry walked on the mound he knew he could be caught. It's gamemanship.

Steriods are a totally different animal. there is no gamesmanship, and until a couple of years ago, there was no risk. Plus steroids so radically alter performance, its much more than gaining an extra half inch on a slider, if thrown perfectly. (And amphetamines don't count).

ruth was a great hitter.

but I always go with Ted Williams. Just imagine if he hadn't been in the military for 3 seasons.

You cant take steroids out of the conversation though becuase that is the whole point he wont be looked as as great becuase of them.

I dont know what steroids he took but fact of the matter is he did. Hell he admitted although he said he didnt know they were steroids. What exactly did it do to him. Like I said it turned a 290 hitter into a 350 hitter. It also turned him from a guy who hit 35-40 homers in 550 at bats to a guy who hit 45 routinely in about 420 at bats.

Your right in 50 years all of his records will be left but so was Maris's homer run record and alot of old timers didnt think it was as great as Ruth's 60 because he played 8 more games it was talked about for years after including 98 when Big Mac broke it. I remember watching sports center and when he broke Babes 60 record they mentioned Mcgwire had the 154 game record.

Bonds before steroids was a top 10 player all time and if he stayed clean his whole career probably would have been considerd one of the top 2 or 3 of the best ever. Fact of the matter is though he wasnt clean. Listen I am usually one of the biggest Bonds supporters on this board but if you think people are not going to look back in 50 years and talk about him without mentioning steroids you are either really naive or huge idiot. It will always be mentioned with his name hence the black cloud I talked about. Also most players of this generation are actually ruled out of the conversation because of steroids so I dont even have to do that. Hell Mark Mcgwire only got something like 23 percent of the vote he needed to get into the Hall and this guy is 7th or 8 all time in homers. Another example is Palmeiro he has done something only two other men in league history has done 3000 hitys and 500 HR's and he has virtually no chance of getting in.

So if this follows those guys it will follow Bonds. He will probably still get in the Hall becuase of the MVP's he won before he used but people will ALWAYS mention roids when talking of him.

Jason Grimsley, with his lifetime 4.77 ERA and 42-58 record, say otherwise. And he was caught, unlike Bonds.

Whether you like it or not, the Steroid Era is a part of baseball, and has to be included in any discussions about baseball history. We'll never know just how rampant steroid use was during this time, but I have an idea that quite a few players were taking it. Bonds just happens to be an easy target.

I agree with you Bonds is trhe easiest target and you are right the steroid era will be discussed in any conversation of baseball history. Thats why I think alot of the players from this era will be ignored in discussions of alltime greats whether that is unfair or not becuase surely all of them arent on it.

easy game.

Mays and Mantle. soon to be in the discussion: Arod and Jose Reyes

Yes, Reyes is the best player in baseball, right now.

Reyes isn't even close to the best baseball player. That would go to NOMAR!

Reyes is the best leadoff hitter in baseball and plays gold glove defense at SS. If A-Rod still played short, he would by far and away be the best player in the game. The only other player who is capable of doing as much or more on the field than Reyes is also on the Mets, Carlos Beltran.

Current top 5 would be
Reyes
Pujols
A-Rod
Johan Santana
Beltran/Vernon Wells

As a Met fan I love Reyes however he isnt even the best player on his team that would be Beltran not alone the entire league. Lets face it when considering best players ever or in the league currently alot of it still boils down to power. Its just the way it is whether its fair or not. If Reyes is the best now was Rickey Henderson 15 years ago because he was even better than Reyes. Back when Rickey was Rickey it was always Griffey and Bonds talked about as the two best in the game.

I disagree...

You realize Reyes could hit 25 HR, 25 triples, 40+ doubles, 120 runs, and well over 50 steals right? Along with Gold Glove shortstop, Ill take that over Beltran. Dont get me wrong, I loves me some Beltran, but Reyes is, IMO, better overall.

What does the fact that he shifted to 3rd have to do with A-Rod being or not being the greatest player? It may affect MVP voting, but has nothing to do with his overall quality as a ballplayer. He's a great fielder wherever he is, and could shift back to short easily.

I dont doubt that he could move back to short and be great. When determining who the best is, you still have to take into account overall value, and the position you play DOES affect that. Another argument for Reyes' overall value is the lack of depth throughout baseball of good leadoff hitters. Solid, middle of the order, corner infielders are a lot more common than a good leadoff hitter. How many great leadoff men can you name in the game right now? Maybe Ichiro(Reyes is better offensively), Jimmy Rollins(inconsistent).

Before he's done, I'll probably say Alex Rodriguez. Failing that, I'd probably say it's the loathsome Bonds (steroids aside). I'd probably toss Willie Mays, Rickey Henderson, and Henry Aaron into my top five baseball players ever. No full-time pitchers measure up in the "greatest baseball player" category, as their contributions are specialized and limited.

What makes this question so hard is the fact that it is impossible to fairly compare players of different eras. Ruth was so phenomenally better than his contemporaries (and was a great pitcher) that if any part of the "greatest ever" analysis takes into consideration the era in which one plays, he is easily the greatest baseball player of all time. But, objectively, it's hard to imagine that if one were to teleport him into the modern era he would enjoy anywhere near the same type of success. Of course, if weight-training, proper nutrition, and Alcoholics Anonymous had been around for Ruth to use....he would have hit 1500 home runs in the pre-integration era.

The rose-colored glasses through which we view earlier eras tends to distort our ability to look at this objectively. Cy Young wouldn't have been a middle reliver today, and Walter Johnson probably had an 88 mile per hour fastball. Guys who were considered giants (Jimmie Foxx, Hack Wilson, etc.) were under six feet and didn't sniff 200 pounds. I have a hard time believing that the average athlete who played before the late 70's or early 80's would have any shot against today's bigger, faster, better conditioned pros. The genetic freaks of any era would still be genetic freaks, but the run of the mill players would be demolished.

Most valuable and greatest aren't synonymous. I don't think it's not A-Rod's fault there is a deficit of good leadoff hitters.

Reyes has the potential to be a truly great player and he is the second best fantasy baseball player this season so far. But he doesn't belong in the discussion yet.

Bonds and ARod are the only active players right now that merit attention among the position players. Griffey would have except for the injuries, Pujols almost definitely will, Manny could as a pure hitter except he appears to be some kind of space alien.

Active pitchers that could be considered among the best ever. Clemens, obviously, Unit and Pedro and Rivera are shadows of their former selves but still technically active. I think Santana will eventually be in the discussion of best pitcher ever.

Best pitchers ever? Koufax, Pedro Martinez, Clemens, and Carlton probably round out my top four. I'd consider the pre 70s or 60s guys to be jokes compared to the modern athlete, with a few gifted mutants thrown in there.

If we want to adjust for the eras in which they played, Martinez and Lefty Grove put up utterly preposterous numbers. Look at what Lefty Grove accomplished in a "liveball", offensive minded decade (the 30's). It's insane.

They aren't synonymous, but they still go hand in hand with one another. You could make the argument that Johan Santana is the best player based only on his value as a pitcher. He's just that good, and dominates that much. Reyes' value as a SS and leadoff hitter, in my mind, is enough to push him to the top spot.

Beltran could hit 40 HR's 40 double score over 100 runs and knock in over 100 all the while stealing 30 bags and playing great center field. As great as I think Reyes is fantasy baseball 5*5 leagues is what makes alot of people think he is the best ball player. 75 percent of his game relies on speed what happens if he pulls a hammy or as he ages a huge part of his game is gone. Beltran although a guy with speed as well will always be able to hit 35-40 HR's. Thats why speed guys are so tricky judge once that declines their value does greatly.

However we are disagreeing over a small diferance in the players anyways. Reyes is a fantastic player I would just personally prefer Beltran up at the plate with the game on the line.

When Beltran plays out of his mind, you're right, he is the best player. I just dont see him ever hitting that ceiling again, maybe in spurts, but not sustained over the whole season. I've long lobbied with my buddy that they should put Beltran in the 2 hole, even though Lo Duca is tailor made for it, with Wright hitting 3rd. I think Beltran would be more dangerous that way, but that is assuming Wright is at the top of his game which he hasnt been so far this year.

Could? Could? Yeah he's the best player in baseball because he could do something! Great analysis. Out of the six things you're talking about he's never done four of them but, hey, he could. I guess Carl Crawford is the second best player in baseball.

Mets fan, by the sounds of it! Beltran is a great player in the grand scheme of things but he's behind atleast 6 or 7 players. Pujols and ARod are the two best players and it's not even for discussion. Vlad and Cabrera are next in line. Beltran falls into the next group of guys, along with Wells, and Reyes is still behind Jeter.

Reyes, Beltran, A-Rod, and Wells are the only true 5 tool players of those you mentioned. Reyes is the most well utilized, most productive player of those four.

You are crazy if you think Reyes is better than Pujols, Vlad or Cabrera. Those guys destroy him in every category except for steals. Being a 5 tool player is overrated anyways. I would rather a guy who kicks ass in 4 than a guy who is great in one and ok in the 4 others.

Exactly! Like Derrek Lee!

BWAHAHAAHAHAHAHAA.

Real funny Overlord, just wait until he starts hitting bombs and leads me to another Executive League title. LOL at least my star player I am disappointed is hitting 350 how is Berkman doing for you by the way?

You son of a.....

No he's not, for one stolen bases and triples don't separate great baseball players from good ones. It's funny how walks and OBP are thrown out the window for "five tool players" like Reyes. So because Reyes is capable of stealing 50-60 bases he's more productive then a guy like ARod who only steals 20-30, hits 30 more dingers, walks twice as much, has a way higher OBP, a way higher SLG, more RBIs and if you put him on short is actually a better defender?

If you put Arod at SS, Reyes is still better defensively: faster, more range, better arm, 1 error this year in 83 chances. For A-Rod's career numbers, his HR and RBI numbers are obviously disgusting, but his Strikeout/walk ratio, Average, OBP, and SLG, which Reyes is matching right now, are decent at best when compared to other great hitters, And, yes, Reyes' 50-60 steals at the top of the lineup far outweigh some selective basestealing Arod will do over the course of a season.

Look man, A-Rod is a fantastic player, and one of the all time greats. I just think Reyes is the best overall player right now, this season.

Unlike Reyes, ARod was a gold glove SS. You're very misinformed by Reyes D. While good, he's no Ozzie Smith. A better player in his career and a player who's batting close to .400 with 14 HR and nearly 40 RBI's and somehow Reyes, who was inferior before and still is, is a better player? Can you say homer?

Willy Mays .302 BA .386 OBP .557 SLG 943 OPS
Hank Aaron .305 BA .374 OBP .555 SLG .929 OPS
Alex Rodriguez .306 BA .386 OBP .577 SLG .964 OPS

So much for being decent at best.

And I could throw out Bonds, Ruth, Pujols and Ted Williams' numbers. The only thing that sets ARod apart from other great hitters is the career HR pace. Pujols is easily the best hitter in baseball.

Being misinfromed about Reyes' D? The only 2 you could really throw out there that are better are Vizquel and Jeter, and that is based solely on previous years reputation, not necessarily reflecting their current playing ability.

ARod can be the best player ever and Reyes can still be the best player right now. That's all I ever said.

I'm not trying to knock ARod. I love him. He is the ultimate pretty boy heel on the ultimate heel team. Just my opinion, that Reyes is that good.

Calling Jeter one of two best defensive SS in baseball is hilarious.

ARod will never be the best player ever and Reyes will never be the best player at any given moment.

Read the entire sentence.... It was just for arguments sake.

Out of Vizquel, Jeter, Rollins, Orlando Cabrera, Khalil Greene, Rafael Furcal, And Edgar Renterria. Reyes is just as good or better than all of them, all things considered(arm strength, range, fielding %, etc.).