The Greatest Basketball Player Ever

Rambis. No doubt in my mind.

Is there any actual debate regarding this? You could argue for years who the best baseball player is, but I never hear anyone say anybody but Jordan.

I'm not much for sports, but who is this Jordan guy who has taken the world of baseball by storm?

Rambis??? There's a new sheriff in town Molt, and his name is Mark Madsen.

You're all fools. It's Granville Waiters.

There are a ton of great reasons why Jordan will always be considered the greatest player of all time, but the most important reason is TV.

Not enough people saw Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlain, Bill Russell, and even Kareem Abdul Jabbar play to make a proper argument for them.

Out of the 4 I mentioned, Elgin, Russell and Kareem probably should be mentioned in the same sentence as Jordan. Chamberlain was a statistical monster, but its pretty well understood today that his coach in philadelphia was instructed to get chamberlain to score point after point because it put asses in seats.

In the TV era, you have several more names, but if I had to compile a list of guys eligible for the title of greatest ever...

Jordan
Kareem
Russell
and maaaaaaaybe Bird/Magic

On the real? You've got to get Oscar Robertson in the conversation. He averaged a triple-double for an entire season. Talk to people who watched him in his prime, and they'll tell you he may have been the most complete player ever.

Tree Rollins is still tops in my book.

God Shamgodd is God.

Manute Bol has them all beaten.

Chamberlain, then Jordan.

Wilt averaged 50 points and 25 rebounds over one season. He made them invent the 3 in the key rule so that he couldn't score 100 points again.

I might even take Hakeem over Jordan.

You must watch ESPN a great deal. Their constant fellating of Jordan was pathetic and slightly creepy. Jordan is one of the greatest ever, but at least one or two of his titles were accompanied by fairly dodgy affairs in terms of refereeing.

I'd place Magic and Chamberlain above Jordan. I would barely include the 6'9ish Bill Russell in my list of top five centers, let alone consider him to be the best basketball player ever. I'd certainly say that he played on some of the best teams ever as compared to the other teams of their era, though. Looking at VORP, a center of Wilt's caliber, or a point guard such as Magic, are going to be light years ahead of the league average at their respective positions versus Jordan's relatively smaller VORP at small forward or shooting guard.

I also tend to look askance at athletes who played before the weight-training and nutritional revolution of the late 70's/early 80's. Unless they are monstrous, physical freaks such as Wilt Chamberlain that come along once every 100 years or so.

That's all of the NBA. Utah fans whined when Jordan got calls, but didn't seem to care when Karl Malone went to the line 20 times a game. Basketball is by far the worst of all professional sports for this reason alone. The league basically admits that that have different rules for different players.

And again, people who point at Jordan's last shot with the Bulls as an offensive foul are just dopes who want to sound smart, but actually haven't watched the play in years.

I don't know...I think Eisley's three pointer with a second on the ahor clock that was inexplicably waved off by the referee with perhaps the worst angle on the play is a valid reason to gripe. Karl Malone was fouled on almost every play in which he had the ball. Same with Shaq. If anything, the big men in the NBA are repeatedly screwed by officials not calling fouls, not the other way around. It's not that Malone received too many foul calls, it's that other big men received far too few.

Also, it sure looks like Jordan puts his hand on Russell's hip/rump and gives him a nice little push at about the 55-57 second mark of this clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WULyz1-OQc

Jordan was a pretty strong man, as Russell's off-balance reaction to the shove demonstrates.

No, it's wrong. He pushed off a lot, but not on that play. If you wanted to call a hand on a guy's ass every time it happened, the entire game would be foul shooting (which it pretty much already is). Russell was just fooled - he sold out on Jordan going to the hole, and when he pulled up on a dime, he couldn't stop.

Forget all of that crap about Shaq and Malone getting fouled all the time. It's as stupid as the old classic "you could call holding on every play!". If you're going to say they're fouled on every play, you can just as easily say they foul the defense on every play. Malone got bullshit calls, just like Jordan got bullshit calls, and Dwayne Wade now goes to the line every time a defender puts a hand in his face when he shoots.

Karl Malone was a pussy who whined all the time, and usually got the call. The idea that he was robbed of more free throws that he gained on bullshit calls is laughable.

There's NO WAY, given the way fouls were called in the NBA at the time, that Jordan's shot over Russell was an offensive foul.

As to the question at hand, the answer is Sweetriver Baines.

Well, I disagree. I don't feel like (nor do I have the skill) to blow up Jordan's arm and measure the force generated by analyzing his muscle contractions, but we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Shaq and other low post big men are fouled, and also foul others, far more often than fouls are called. This is a different problem than superstars receiving phantom foul calls (a la Dwyane [sic] Wade). It's hard to believe that you disagree with this.

I'm just a little Len Biased.

Greatest Basketball Player Ever: Greg Kite

Greatest Golfer Ever: Tom Kite

I'm gonna throw in my vote for World B. Free. Or maybe Darryl "Chocolate Thunder" Dawkins.

some hilarious comments here guys

good call on the Big O. Robertson definitely deserves a mention.

And once again, I have to state that Chamberlain's numbers are terribly inflated and not a realistic way of comparing him to other players. Many people don't realize this, but he only won TWO championships. One with the sixers, and one with the 72 lakers where he was clearly on a decline and not the force of nature he used to be...that was very much jerry west's team.

You talk to ppl who saw him play and writers of that era, Chamberlain had a rep for getting lost in the clutch, and not being dependable in the must win games. This is why Russell was such a thorn in his side. That guy could close and had a killer instinct and wasn't interested in his own stats, which Chamberlain has admitted to multiple times.

As for russell...he has to be in the conversation. His boston teams won 8 fucking titles in a row. Sure it was a different era, but contrary to what we think today, there was some steep competition out there. Also, the dude was a PLAYER/COACH. That is impressive.

I am a huge laker fan, and it pains me to not put him on the list, but the guy just didn't play long enough. Even though he had a hugely productive career, he was blessed with some amazing surrounding talent (Magic, worthy, kareem, Bob Mcadoo all shared the same court at one time...that's what I call talent) and made others better with his passing and vision...but that doesnt make him the greatest basketball player ever.

I have to chime in with the Bill Russell love. Not an offensive force (though he did tally up 14,522 career points, and threw in 30 points in the clutch in Game 7 of the 1962 Finals), but once grabbed 51 rebounds in a single game, and repeatedly averaged over 20 rebounds a season (10 times in 13 seasons). The first black head coach in major U.S. professional sport...11 NBA championships that couldn't have been won without him...he played in 11 deciding games and won all 11 of them (averaging 18 pts, 29 rebounds in them)...had an uncanny basketball IQ...five time MVP...etc.

I can't say who was better than the other, but I'd put Russell, Robertson, Chamberlain up there, at least.

I agree with Fazer about Chamberlain's faults: I think as far as *pure talent* goes the guy was probably the best that's ever played. Of course, talent isn't everything.

Here's Chamberlain's stats against Russell in 142 games:

Put Wilt on those Boston Celtics teams, and they might have gone undefeated in a few of those championship years.

The thing about Wilt, though, and why Jordan's inclusion into this conversation has merit, is the difference between the two, and players like Russell, upstairs.

If Russell were as talented as Wilt, how many more games would the Celtics have won?

How so? Are you ignoring Wilt's statistics? He exceeded his career averages by a wide margin in the play-offs, and in particular against Russell. He elevated his game when it mattered the most. Perhaps if he was on teams where guys could make an open shot, he would have won more championships.

In looking at his career, how many times was he on a team that (other than him) was one of the two or three best teams? The 1967 Philly team was unreal. That roster has what, four hall of famers on it? They won 68 games, demolished everyone in the play-offs, and won the championship. When Wilt was in decline he had three or four years with a great Laker team, they won only one championship and lost a few they probably should have won. Should he have won more? Probably.

BTW Check out Bill Russell's career shooting percentage. It's an eye opener. In an era where he dominated the competition physically, it was atrocious.

When Wilt was at his best, he couldn't win. Excuse it all you want, but this is the NBA, not the NFL, if you're The Greatest Basketball Player Ever, and a center at that, the number of titles you win is a very serious barometer.

Neither one of them has shit on Gheorghe Muresan. If big Gheorghe were around back in the sixties both of those guys would've only averaged about 8.3 points a game and 5 rebounds, and Russell would've only had 2 rings.

Also, how has nobody mentioned Yinka Dare yet???

couldn't have put it better myself.

I really haven't been moved to watch since the Olden Polynice Era ended.

Byrd? Are you kidding? He did a whole heck of a lot with what he had, but he was not a Chamberlain, Russell, or Kareem. I think Jordan was talented, but I wish we could have seen him place against the older generation. He was dramatic in his dunks, but he never scored like Chamberlain - and let's face it, Wilt may be an ass personally, but he's a talented player who had to deal with a lot of "everyone guard Wilt" and still averaged 50 points a game for an entire season.

Oh, and don't get me wrong, I love Spud Webb. He, along with Byrd, get the "doing the most with what you got" award.

Dunking is flashy, but it's not everything.

ETA: check out You Tube for NBA's 100 Greatest Plays.

Magic over Jordan? Russell not a top 5 center? I guess you never heard of defense.

Don't worry Ripoll, when they asked people on the street in that video they hadn't heard of Layden either. Then later he made all of Karl Malone's pieces of ass disappear from the dinner table. Which is a shame because I was looking forward to hearing the mailman spit game without the use of prepositions or pluralization. I'm pretty sure James Lipton would agree that was one of the greatest moments in the history of american cinema. Also, didn't a red mulleted Bill Walton have a scene on the beach with Layden in that one too?

I'm one of those who say Jordan is on the short list, but I lean towards Wilt. Given the way the game works, I think you almost have to break it down to greatest big man/greatest backcourt player - the needed skill sets are so different.

I think Fazer is trying to have it both ways - he calls Wilt's stats inflated and rips him for only winning one title, while (rightly) praising the Big O, who played in the same era and won only one title. Either titles matter, or they don't - but they matter the same for everyone if they do.

Basically, I'd have to put it as:

Big men:
1)Wilt
2)Kareem
3)Moses Malone (okay, not really, but I just love the guy)

Backcourt:
1)Jordan
2)Robertson
3)Magic

If it were, Darryl "Chocolate Thunder/Sir Slam/the Duke of Dunk/Doctor Dunkenstein" Dawkins, master of interplanetary funkmanship, hailing from the planet Lovetron, would be the greatest player ever, if only for the "The Chocolate-Thunder-Flying, Glass-Flying, Robinzine-Crying, Babies-Crying, Glass-Still-Flying, Cats-Crying, Rump-Roasting, Bun-Toasting, Thank You-Wham-Bam-I-Am-Jam", to say nothing of: the In Your Face Disgrace, The Go-rilla, Earthquaker Shaker, Candyslam, Dunk You Very Much, Look Out Below, Yo Mama, Turbo Sexophonic Delight, Rim Wrecker, Greyhound Bus (went coast-to-coast), Cover Your Head, Spine Chiller Supreme, Slam Bam Thank You Maam, and Walk Away From Love.

Man, I love Double D.

Jordan didnt score like Wilt. Sorry but Jordan's career pts per game is identical to Wilt's. The year that Wilt average 50 a game he also averaged about 40 shots a game. I think if MJ launched it up that many times he would have came pretty close to 50 as well.

The big thing is though Wilt was a 7 1 center playing agaisnt other centers who were 6 6. The closest in size to him was Russell. Think about that guys the size of 2 guards in todays game had to guard Wilt of course he dominated. If Wilt played in todays game or even in Jordan's era agasint Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson, Ewing guys basically his size no way he averages 50 a game. As far as the everyone guarding Wilt strategy Jordan more than had to deal with double and triple teams. In my mind there is no contest Jordan was a much better player than Wilt or anyone else.

hmm...good call. But, I have to say the reason that ppl always give for Wilt being in this conversation is his stats. But what no one seems to be getting is that his stats were purposefully inflated by his coaches at the time. Like someone mentioned, the guy took almost ALL of the teams shots (by design) when he was putting up such gawdy point totals

Oscar's averaging a triple double is a pretty insane stat line though. Its almost unfathomable that one player could be so adept at so many things. The game just doesn't really allow/cater to that kind of play anymore (except for maybe J. Kidd).

But again Chavez you one up me, the conversation is far easier when you break it down into positions. Comparing centers to guards will never work no matter what the era is.

I still think Kareem was the best center to ever play the game though. He had real competition and he still put up some of the most legendary numbers of all time. And unlike other big men who came after him, the guy gave his best effort in all facets of the game (gotta credit John Wooden for making Kareem/Lew believe in the team game).

I wish we were having this conversatioin in a bar....

Well, if Jordan didn't have such a healthy scoring average he wouldn't really be in the discussion, either. Obviously stats matter, just as titles do - basketball is the one team sport where I truly believe a great player CAN and SHOULD carry his team to at least the championship series a few times.
IMO the only player who had the Big O's skill set was Magic. Robertson gets unfairly underrated and forgotten in these discussions.
I think one thing that downgrades Wilt IS the championships - IMO it is MUCH easier for an NBA big man to carry a team to a title than it is for a guard, one of the big things that makes Jordan's career so impressive.

Going back to this, I was checking the Big O's stats, and he damn near averaged a triple double over TWO STRAIGHT seasons, plus came a hair away a few other times - 9.7 ast to go with 10.1 reb in 60-61, 10.4 boards and 9.5 ast in 62-63, and 9.9 reb to go in 63-64.

Oh yeah, he scored about 30 a game back then as well. That's fucking insane.

One last bit in defense of Wilt - check out his per-game numbers in 66-67 and 67-68 - he was dishing out about 8 assists per game, pulling down 24 boards, and oh-by-the-way hanging 24 ppg on about 67% shooting. That's maybe MORE impressive to me than the 50 pt/25 reb season he posted.

Another thing people tend to forget about Jordan was that 4 about 8 or 9 years he was one of the 2 best defensive players in the league along with Pippen. He played both ends and it didnt hurt his offense at all.

Very true. He was a total package as a player.

I was always partial to Magic, myself. I always thought he was better than Jordan, but as you can imagine, that would lead to certain rather heated discussions...

When I think of great basketball players, I think of basketball skill. Not just numbers, but the ability to do it all from anywhere and everywhere on the court.

Jordan. He could do it all. And he did.

Not Jordan.

The Greatest Basketball Player Ever™ should not be someone who had his stats and accomplishments padded beause he played by his own set of rules. Fuck that.

I'm a Bill Russell guy myself.