Ted Nugent - Guns defeat evil!

The Phantom SLAMS evil, thank you very much.

Man, gotta love the Nuge.

I love how all the gun nuts think that, had there only been more guns on campus that day, tragedy would have been averted. I'm sure no one would have ever mis-identified a fellow classmate carrying a gun and opened fire or anything. No one would have panicked at all, everyone would have had a level head and shot the appropriate assailant immediately.

These macho-jock-hero-fantasy types need to be dropped into a combat zone, pronto.

Fuck gun restrictions. I want looser drug restrictions. If I'd been on campus that day, I would've hit the guy with a surprise shot of heroine. That way not only would the tragedy have been averted, but we'd both be on cloud 9 right about now, yeah...

... I wanna get high.

Hey, at least Nugent no longer calls Michigan home. He's moved to Texas to fully embrace "Bushiness".

Amen, Jim.

Fighting back? Fucking ridiculous. Execution-style massacres are much more politically correct, aren't they?

Nugent may be batshit insane, but there's still a ring of truth to what he says, on occasion.

When would that be, exactly?

Fighting back, should the opportunity arise and the circumstances warrant, is great, but to pretend that an armed campus is a safe campus is simply retarded, period. Many cops go their entire careers without ever having to fire their weapon at a criminal, so I hardly think having the general population carrying is going to decrease violence. It's ludicrous.

Ludicrous is exactly right. Although if there had been a campus full of Nuges that day, they probably would've wiped each other out opening fire on anyone who had a weapon drawn to protect themselves in order to protect themselves. So the campus may have ended up a gun-free zone in any case.

And many people who have CCW permits go their entire lives without ever having to draw on someone, too. So? Even if it doesn't make the campus any safer (though to any would-be psychopathic shooter, the idea that a good number of your intended targets may be armed would probably be a decent deterrent, wouldn't it?) it's not like it'd somehow make it more dangerous. By and large, people who go through the proper channels and are licensed to carry concealed handguns are among the most honest and law-abiding folks you'd ever meet. The whole redneck good 'ol boy gun nut stereotype is completely off the mark, and they abhor the idea of violence as much as any of you. Might be a hard fact to swollow depending on your biases, but there it is.

And it's not an 'armed campus' (evidently, an 'unarmed campus' isn't particularly safe either) or 'general population'. The good majority obviously choose not to carry a weapon. Nothing wrong with that, it's a personal decision and a huge responsibility. And considering that one of the requirements for obtaining a CCW is a fair amount of training (though perhaps not enough, but that's easy to fix), including obviously learning how to competantly and safely employ a firearm in self-defense, but also the law and when you may or may not actually pull (especially pull the trigger) on someone.

Hear about that earlier incident in Virginia where some scumbag decided to go on a shooting rampage but was stopped almost immediately by two students who had pistols in their cars? I can link you to the article when I find it again.

"campus full of Nugents"
Like that's not any more ludicrous than anything he's said? Chances are, the Nugent types wouldn't be busying themselves with a college education, instead stockpiling resources in their bomb shelters for when the furriners and demmicrats take over. But for the sake of debate, even if there had been, and they all wiped each other out, would you really care?

Edit: Say what you will about Ted Nugent, but you can't disagree that Dr. Suzanne Gratia is a very respectable person. If Nugent doesn't have any valid points, perhaps she does.

I'd just factor it into my plans, maybe climb a clock tower with a rifle or plant explosives or something.

The idea of campuses full of drunken undergrads, volatile grad students, and duelling academics carry guns is, to put it mildly, bad. How many deaths are there due to massacre across the nation of gun-free campuses as is? Do you think those deaths, assuming carrying guns would've prevented them, would be offset by the number of deaths due to accident and crimes of passion and so on? Easy access to guns make it easier for crazy, stupid people to do crazy, stupid things. Guns in classrooms would be worse than guns in bars.

There has to be more to this story and I want to know what it is (the site clearly has a tad of a bias). If it is true, the best rational explanation I can provide is that it's a Hobbesian-type law where everyone would walk in fear of one another and would thus create a kind of neutrality. That being said, wouldn't it just be a matter of who's walking around with the most powerful gun?

Of course the crime rate is going to increase immediately after a gun ban. Because then the people with guns are committing a crime. It's the same reason crime skyrocketed during prohibition.

No. What is a "more powerful gun"? A .380 can kill you just the same as a .45. And it has nothing to do with walking around in fear of everyone else, just because somebody is carrying a gun doesn't mean they're dangerous or that you'd have any reason to fear them. Hell, I'd sooner trust a citizen with a CCW than a cop. They tend to be better shots (and cops, at least where I'm from, seem to shoot whomever they please with impunity. Citizens are held under much more scrutiny).

And hopefully most wannabe mass-murderers aren't as smart as you, Seabass. Besides, explosives are tricky and shootin' from clock towers requires patience, good aim, and has no escape routes. They'd probably just pick somewhere else altogether.

The drunken undergrads thing is kind of ridiculous. Besides being a stereotype, you have to remember the types of people who go through the trouble of getting a CCW in the first place are probably not your standard idiot frat boy. "Crimes of passion" simply are not commited by people who have CCW permits. If they do it's pretty rare. As for accidents? Accidents are caused by people who don't know what the fuck they're doing; guns do not ever "go off", if that's what you mean.

Furthermore, it has nothing to do with access to guns, that's a seperate issue. Given that the guns are always going to be available to the wrong people, and given that somebody with murderous intent is not going to bother with getting the proper licenses and permits, I think it's largely irrelevant.

Of course guns in bars is a pretty dumb idea, but I don't see how that relates to a classroom at all.

Uh, Cho Seung-Hui didn't buy his guns off the street. He got them the proper way.

A comment lament. I bet they're more focused, though. Obsessed, even.

Escape generally isn't on their minds.

Another possibility. Regardless, you can't say "if this had been such a way, then that would happen". The guy was bound to do something.

Having been there, I agree! Engineering Week was fun, though.

Grifter carries a gun.

I wouldn't trust the judgement of students enough to allow guns in dorms or stand in front of a classroom full of armed grad students, some of them failing. Whatever the cause, something's going on to make kids snap every now and then. Making more guns available to them by whatever means will not help matters.

And judging from the way these conversations usually go, I'm led to think the types of people who go through the trouble are paranoid, unrealistic about the necessity and usefulness of fighting government tyranny with small arms fire, interpret any sort of gun legislation as 'grabbing' and whose lives revolve around guns generally. They may refer to their homes as 'compounds'.

That's probably not a very accurate picture, but the internet's a funny place.

It's not the carrying, it's the making them close to hand for others. As for rarity, think about this: though rare, does the number of dorm arguments likely to get violent across the whole country in the forseeable future make it worth the ostensible deterrent effect this would have on the even rarer occurence of classroom shootings? Most schools don't have madmen shooting them up as it stands now, but increasing the availability of firearms increases whatever risks are associated with them.

It's not. I refer to stupid people doing stupid things.

I'm not so sure about that. This guy bought his guns legally.

They're both crowded places, for one thing. And I really, really don't think you're going to find a college professor willing to stand in front of an auditorium of armed students, some of whom may not graduate because of him, for the same reason that professor wouldn't trust a drunk with a gun; the owner's temper may get the better of him.

Weigh all that against the likelihood of some kid having the skill and the wherewithall to kill a gunman like Cho. Remember that Reagan's bodyguards were supposed to be trained experts and alert to a threat, and they weren't fast enough to keep Hinkley from getting six shots off at Reagan.

Yes, Cho bought his guns legally. True. But as you said, these types of people are pretty focused on their goal of mass slaughter. So is it really much of a stretch to think that maybe it's possibly to buy guns, y'know, on the street, and that Cho could've done so just as easily? (cheaper, too, I might add. I think this is the main thing the anti-2A people don't buy. But, I know from personal experience: It's fucking easy.)

But like I said, it's a seperate issue.

Though I can see you plainly wouldn't trust your classmates to carry guns (though like I said if they're the types who would shoot somebody over a failing grade, they're not the types to pay attention to CCW rules, are they?) You say stupid people would cause accidents. I say people with CCW permits just aren't stupid. Because this is probably something you'd have to take my word for, there's probably no way to convince you otherwise. You're assuming a desire of other people to kill fuckers as the slightest provocation. That's projecting, not really fair. But you're still set in my ways (as I am mine) so nobody's opinions are going to change, am I right?

My issue isn't really with you though, apparently, because at least you have actual reasoned arguments. I get tired, however, of people dismissing this with comments like "blah blah blah NRA redneck gun nuts crazy blah blah whatever".(especially from people who claim to be open minded. hypocrites!) But I might be ranting now, so I'll shut up.

Though I still disagree, I'll concede that maybe letting students go armed could be a risk. So let the teachers instead.

Oh, and the bodyguards thing.. It's not a very good argument, really. I've said before that civilians are better shots than police. This is because the government trains its people (as the military does) in an assembly-line like mass production sort of way. Their firearms training is just a part of the process, and there are, somehow, many police officers who actually don't like recreational shooting. You're not going to be any good at something you don't want to do, especially when your training consists of completely outdated methods (eg, how long did it 'em to start teaching the Weaver stance, instead of that cowboy-style one-hand crap?). Civilians, on the other hand, WANT to learn. They already have more experience than your average cop because they practice in their free time, for fun. Imagine that, and furthermore they are paying other people hundreds of dollars to teach them how to use a firearm effectively, whether it be against a potential murderer or a bunch of commie beer bottles. (You should see some IPSC competition sometime to see how good these people actually are. It blows my mind).


Yeah, I realize this isn't really on topic but it's still another misconception I wanted to clear up. Carry on.

How should I know how people that fragile would think? This guy was loony enough to go on a killing spree, yet he bought his guns legally. Maybe the hypothetical frazzled grad student isn't the type to get a permit, but is the type to steal the gun his roommate has a permit for on the spur of the moment.

And yet, accidents still happen. You can't deny that. So will there be so few from now on that it, along with what's sure to be a higher suicide and homicide rate simply because guns make such things so much easier, makes the deterrent effect worth it? I don't believe there is a deterrent effect, so I vote no.

Who said it wasn't possible? You said it happened, though, and it didn't.

I don't think I said it happened, but if I did then I misspoke, My bad. As for the suicide and homicide rate going up, I think no, it just wouldn't. Guns are inanimate objects and their presence does not cause otherwise rational, normal people to do things they otherwise wouldn't, and the possibility of accidents would be GREATLY reducded with alittle mandatory education on the subject. The four rules are not hard to learn and if you follow any one of them, accidents will not happen.

Though you did bring up a good point about stealing from one's roomate. I lived by myself off campus when I went to college so I didn't really think about that, but, I currently live in a squad bay wit 50 other guys and all sorts of shit I wouldn't want stolen. All you have to do is lock your shit up when you aren't using it and it won't gete stolen.

But hopefully we found some common ground and can both agree that allowing the faculty to carry would carry less risk, if any really. It's a good compromise between both camps, I think.

Nevermind the fact that when you carry a firearm, the chances of you getting shot rise exponentially. I will say that if all these proto-Republicans get their way, this country will be in such a chaotic shithole that we'll all need AK-47s just to survive.

The day Nugent put his guitar down to pick up a gun, America died a little.

Guns allow irrational people to follow through. Fundamentally, if you can't get a gun, you can't fire one. This is not the same thing as saying having access causes you to fire them.

But accidents do happen. Allowing guns on campuses guarantees there will be more firearm accidents than there would be otherwise.

Oh, you idealist.

I wouldn't go for letting faculty carry either. It might be less risky than letting students carry would be, but it's more risky than not letting anyone carry.

If you say so. I think I'm done with this argument.

I'd just leave it at "whatever, do what you like" but I doubt you would ever consider the same sentiment. I'm probably irrational, just the sort you wouldn't want to be armed, no doubt.(the plural 'you'. At least you haven't yet spouted such nonsense as "it's a fact that having a gun makes you more likely to be shot" or resorted to name calling)

Like I said, we're all set in our ways, no minds are going to be changed. Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

The thing is if someone is dead set on robbing you or killing you they're not going to give a fuck if you're strapped also.

I don't know what to do about gun violence in America. Gun control won't work and ignoring the problem won't do anything either. I guess we're just fucked.

As much as I am for gun control, I do know it will never work because guns have been so ingrained in our society for so long. What we have now is probably the best situation we're going to have unless a large portion of the pro-gun population has a change of heart.

They might, however, start giving a fuck once they find themselves staring down the wrong end of their potential victim's gun. Either way, that's kind of a defeatist attitude to have, isn't it?

Gun control won't work, obviously, and neither would ignoring it, of course. All we have to do is start enforcing the laws we already have. Say, mandatory x years for being caught carrying a gun without a permit. People know that you can bargain your sentence down to nothing, and the fact that a very good majority of violent criminals are repeat offenders (who by law are already prohibited from owning firearms), who've already been incarcerated and continue to do violence once they're released.

Great editorial about The Nuge.

An excerpt:

Yeah, that Nugent is just full of sound ideas.