Sex with one of your closest friends?

As chick-flick as it sounds, yeah there are issues. What are the odds that if it doesn't end up working out, you'll still be as good of friends as you are now? Not good.

Still, if the two of you are attracted to each other, and get along as friends, you've got two of the more important aspects of a working relationship together. Then again, maybe she has issues with respecting the guys she dates and is currently only in the market for good lays. I've known a few people who didn't go out with people they actually thought a relationship would work with because they just didn't want one. She seems to be that type.

Once she's moves closer, hound other chicks when you go out. Her reaction will tell you if she's actually looking to date you down the road.

Sex with close friends: Only advised if you can deal with the idea that if doesn't lead to an actual relationship there's no going back to "just friends". Oh, you'll both try to still be friends, but that shit just doesn't work. There's no going back. So, weigh your choice carefully. If you feel so strongly about her that the risk of destroying that friendship is one you're willing to take then tell her your feelings.

But this...

Abort. Back off and let your head clear.

That's a fuckin lousy situation dude, but let me tell you from personal experience that sex is going to ruin your friendship. I eventually had sex with every close female friend I've ever had, and that's primarily the reason why I don't currently have any close female friends. Look, from what you've said it sounds like the attraction is mostly one-sided meaning that you'd probly end up getting pretty hurt when she moves on and would never be able to look at her in the same way again, no matter how hard you pretend.

So if there's real relationship potential there, and the only person to judge whether there is would be you, then yeah go for it. Otherwise, you'd better be prepared for her to become that person who was once your friend.

BTW, it's kinda weird how you present her making out with you while she has a boyfriend as not a big deal. 'cause in my book, that's called cheating.

Quite the conundrum you have here, JuddL. From personal experience, I have made the mistake of trusting our friendship could withstand anything, and that was one less friend.

However, I took a big risk once, and that friend is now my wife. Now, I tend to be a romantic sumbitch, so it all boils down to the lady you are pining after. From the sound of things she really does seem to be having a good time with guys, which is fine. Those first loves are a bitch to let go of, but if I were in your shoes I would let go and live a little. If down the line, you both feel ready to commit to a relationship, then go for it.

Yeah, the making out part is a little wierd. Either she's into you or she isn't. The whole open relationship thing spells trouble as she obviously can't or doesn't want to commit to anyone right now.

From what you've said, JuddL, you have deeper feelings for her than she does for you, so I think you're asking for a world of hurt if you pursue a relationship with this girl and she doesn't reciprocate. She seems in a phase where she's just having fun. If you push for something more, you'll end up pushing her away. Patience is key. Be her friend, maybe drops some hints (crack a joke about you two and see how she reacts), but really just be there.

And I know this is hard, but stop making out with her. It may feel good at the time, but it'll just make you feel worse that you can't have her afterward. If she asks why, be honest and say that you have feelings for her and you don't want to be just a diversion from her current boyfriend.

Lastly, remember first loves are just that. Don't put too much importance on this girl. You will meet plenty of people throughout your lifetime who you will connect with. In the end, though, you gotta do what you feel is right. Good luck, man.

go to her house, and hold a boombox over your head blasting Peter Gabriel's In Your Eyes.

If that doesn't work, I don't know what will.

Oh and I've been in the same situation. it sucks royally...and she's been gone for a few months now (talk 3-4 times a week still) and she's coming back next month or so...so yeah, I feel ya man. the awkwardness gets going again. lol

I think time apart would be a very, very good thing. I know that you think she's a great girl. But the idea that she'd cheat on her current boyfriend, run through a lot of different boyfriends, and make out with you when she says she doesn't reciprocate your feelings -- all those suggest that she is not in a good place to be in a serious relationship. Maybe she's just young and having a good time. Maybe she has issues she needs to work through. In any case, you don't want to be with her for just a few months and you don't want to be cheated on by her. Maybe the reason she doesn't want to be in a relationship with you is that she knows she can't sustain it right now, and doesn't want to hurt you. From what you describe, that seems like what would happen, and that would be the worst case scenario.

From what you've said you've been friends for a long, long time. If you can keep putting this out of your head now, you can stay friends for a long, long time. Maybe at some point in the distant future, her perspective will change.

Yes, otherwise you are beating her over the head with it. She'll be aware that you don't feel like she does. If you continue to bring it up, it will only make it more of a problem.

If she's not interested, you have to let it go. If she changes her mind, she knows how to find you.

No offense, but as much as you see potential there, if she doesn't even see the potential for dating (at least, not right now) then it's not going to happen and you're going to have to ignore it. And, yes, you can ignore it. And yes, there will be other good candidates. (It helps if you're out there looking for them.)

Here's my Andrew Dice Clay-esque advice Judd. First of all, forget the notion of 'I don't want sex to ruin our friendship', that's just a bunch of bullshit since you have a strong need to fuck and potentially marry this broad. What are you going to do, try to bang her when your 90 and just jerk off to her myspace until then? haha, I made myself laugh with that one. Your like a guy who's at an amusement park looking at a roller coaster who doesn't want to get on the ride because it might ruin how much fun looking at it is. Anyway, in your efforts to stick your dick in her, etc. don't go spilling the beans about how much you like her, that's just going to make it awkward. Take the makeout sessions to the next level, and stop respecting her boyfriend so much / at all.

Judd, this chick is using you. Get conversationally heavy about you two having sex, and if she declines, leave her in the dust. She has no right, because it sounds like, given her proclivity for multiple boyfriends, she's taking a good guy like you for granted.

You're an idiot.

Don't respect the issue of her having a boyfriend is what I was trying to say.


Is there a reason involved in that in depth analysis.

To quote the late, great Sam Kinnison, "Friends? I've got all the friends I need!"

Chick Logic 239: The Friend Zone

Unbeknownst to most men is the fact that a women decides if she'd sleep with you within the first 24 hours of meeting you. Even more unknown is the fact that decision comes with an expiration date. If you haven't made your move within a specific period of time, you are hereby sucked into "The Friend Zone".

Most men become victim's of the FZ via the mistaken assumption that if a women has a boyfriend, she's unavailable. Problem is that over 98% of women start shopping for new boyfriends when they are fed up with the current one prior to actually severing that relationship. This isn't to imply they are cheaters (well, some of them anyway), as they won't allow anything that implies cheating to happen. They just want to have a sure thing lined up before giving up the secure situation they have (i.e. women absolutely hate being single). Unfortunately, this information isn't broadcast on loud speakers, so men tend to be completely unaware of it. Any guy whose been dumped by his girlfriend and then shocked to see her with another guy the next day is usually oblivious to the fact she's been planning on unloading him 3-6 months prior to the breakup, but we digress.

Now also contrary to popular belief is that the ride to the FZ is one way. Certain men do have a chance of escape based on them fulfilling the qualifications of a later life stage mate (i.e. You're marriageable material). Women under 25 want the bad boy who sweeps in and steals them from their current boyfriend. After a few years, they tire of supporting him while he tries to "get his band off the ground", they're ready for a more serious relationship. Now those nice guys they've "kept in contact with all these years" have a legitimate shot, but the situation must be right, and they've got to earn it. You need to convince her there's enough of a bad boy in you so her heart follows her head. That starts with no longer giving a shit that she has a boyfriend, and executing a full court press of hitting on her every oppurtunity you get.

The real best way to avoid any of the above headaches is to never be regulated to the "Friend Zone" in the first place. If you think a girl is hot, hit on her out of the gate. She may put you off for the "Boyfriend", but you'll never be sucked into the FZ. Face it, there's plenty of guys, and women you don't find attractive, to have as friends.

Here endeth the lesson.

Much of my personal experience flies directly in the face of what Death Surge just wrote (quite literally, in some regards, because I was that guy "trying to get the band off the ground" when I started dating my wife who was under 25, single, and with whom I had been very good, completely platonic friends for about a year prior). Anyway, no offense to him specifically, but I think this either goes to show that my wife and I are unique and special snowflakes when it comes to how relationships work or that pithy, all-inclusive statements about "how women work" (or, for that matter, "how men work") are not to be taken too seriously. People are individuals, not genders.

That said, you've known this particular individual for six years and, in those six years, she's had eight boyfriends who weren't you. This does not bode well. Your concern shouldn't even be her current boyfriend, since those are apparently disposable; you should be more concerned that there's a stream of them, and you're probably not the only guy in line who thinks he might be "the one."

Based on a vaguely similar experience I had, I suggest taking Amphibatron's advice - "back off and let your head clear."

I could jump with Death Surge on this subject. Most girls around 26 are quite dual when it refers to prefer an ideal but stick with the first one they think is a stud. There are tons of honorable exceptions but it could be quite difficult to find out because there's too much hypocrites on both sides. I think Amphibatron is quite right.

I have enjoyed many male friends over the years. I knew from the beginning (yes, within the first 3-5 minutes ) if I was physically attracted to them or not. If I was feeling it, passion overtook all caution. It did not always matter how handsome they were, the person in question either rocked my boat or they didn't. Chemistry cannot be explained, and is no reflection on the worth of those involved.

It doesn't matter how gorgeous you are, JuddL. If she engaged in petting and woke up the next morning with the dark hole in her tummy that says you are wrong for her sexually, her mind is made up and I doubt you will change it.
Your peg just may not fit her hole so to speak, but good luck working this out. I see you are 21 so you have all the time in the world.

That "I tried to bang her..." line made me laugh. You seem like a nice guy, Judd, and you are only a year younger than I am, which you puts us both in that 'hopeless romantic' phase that is great because we aren't cantankerous older men who have been through three divorces and vow never to let 'bitches' ruin our lives again.

I believe that you will figure out what you want to do about this girl in due time. You two will have plenty of time in China to spend together and hey, you might hook up while there, and it might only be for the duration of your time in country, but at least it's something. Or you may find that she is not the person you thought she was and realize it's time to look elsewhere.

This whole five months in China and the same law school thing, is this coincidence or have you or her arranged this to be closer to the other? If you have such strong feelings for her and she is confused about her feelings towards you then I'm not so sure this close proximity is going to be a good idea in the long run. Do you really think you can let go of those feelings completely if she makes it clear that she is not interested in you in that way?

I dunno. It's also possible that the reason she hasn't been able to settle for one of the eight is because Judd's always there. Who knows such things for sure?

Are you two going to be the only people you know in China? Because if you are, then there's definitely a reason she asked you to go.

Judd, when you go to China, bring her a mix tape.

I agree with Death Surge's post. DaveB, there are exceptions to every rule, that doesn't change the rule. You are going too far with this "everyone's unique man" thing. People are pretty fucking similar actually.

That's not true. Only some people line up the next person before they break up with the first. It's not a healthy way to be and it's certainly very mean to the person one is with. People who are like that (male or female) should get their heads out of their asses. And people who are like that are not good enough for JuddL, quite frankly. So if she's one of them, then it's best if they don't end up together.

Only some.....will admit to it.

Judd, there you go. miyagi disagrees with me, and he's been proven (proven! by science!) to be wrong about pretty much everything in every thread in which he's ever posted.

People aren't that "fucking similar," actually. Every happy couple I know hooked up in quite a different way than any other given couple. "The Friend Zone" is reductive bullshit; I've been in that "Friend Zone" with certain women and the theory held up, and I've been in that same "Friend Zone" with others (namely, my wife), and it didn't at all. And I know plenty of people who could make the same claim as I can (even one who was multiple years into this so-called "Friend Zone" before he started dating the woman he eventually married).

Well, you can't. I just don't think it bodes well. It might not say all that much about Judd and his relationship with her, but it might say a lot about her. If her serial monogamy had to do with him, he'd probably know this by now, since she's obviously not the cautious type, having jumped into multiple relationships in a pretty short amount of time. Why wouldn't she have at least said something about it by now?

Haha, that's great!

But, seriously, I think you should go for it. If you don't, you'll always wonder "what if," she'll eventually end up with another guy for good, and you won't be friends anymore anyway. If you go for broke, the initial fall will certainly be harder if it doesn't work out, but then it'll be easier for you to close the book on her and move on, and at least you'll know. Plus, there's always the chance that things will end up working out. I can't speculate as to the likelihood of that, not knowing either of you, but it certainly seems to be in the realm of possibility.

Of course, this thread brings to mind one of Donal Logue's classic lines from The Tao of Steve: "If you're hanging out with women as friends, then you're doing your research in the wrong library. Getting out of the category of 'friend' is harder than getting out of Alcatraz."

Seems simple math to me. As it was when I had the very same discussion with my current girlfriend who was - prior to us dating - my best friend (she still is, just different context now)

Her concern was ruining the friendship if we broke up to whci I pointed out:
If we DON'T date and she ends with someone, then the friendship will change.
If we do date and it doesn't work out, the friendship will change.
If we do date and it DOES work out, then that's great.

If the friendship is going to change, I'd prefer for it to be because we gave it a chance.

Maybe because that's just the kind of unique individual she is, maaan. She could have dated eight guys who aren't Judd just to turn him on. Don't ever make generalizations like that to determine what "bodes well"....muuuun, it's not pc.

This has nothing to do with PC. It has to do with being a human being who engages with other human beings in conversation instead of coming to simplistic conclusions. People are a lot more complicated than you seem to give them credit for being. Even you, miyagi. I bet there's loads of complex insecurities and psychosis beneath that thick veneer of retard.

Anyway, there's a world of difference between making generalizations about "women" and making educated guesses about people based on specific behaviors. It's the difference between calling all Muslims extremists and calling a Muslim with a bomb strapped around his waist with a list of demands an extremist. I'm not surprised that this sort of nuance might escape someone such as yourself.

Plus, I couched that last post in a flood of conditionals and questions. I'm not making any definitive statements about JuddL's lady friend.

Dave, you have to use words with less than 3 syllables with Swedish Miyagi if you want to get your point across. Powerpoint presentations with sub-titles and a book with large images are also a plus.


On the subject; I get what Death Surge was saying, and in a very general sense, it's fairly right, but there are way out of the Friend Zone.

The only thing I know for sure about women is that they're all crazy. In a very individual, quite singular way.

Watch out there Marty the one man party, you're going to fuck up and agree with me in the same post you're trying to talk trash about me in. You clearly get excited whenever you see a thread with my name involved. You probably search my name for posts and even have made some anti swedish miyagi t shirts that you were regularly. Bruce Lee was a 140lbs actor buddy, Fedor would make a total joke out of him, get over it.

Dave B, it's got a lot to do with pc. You, like a lot of people, are aware that relying on stereotypes / generalizations and not seeing the individual can be a problem. Which is of course true, but what you're not smart enough or ballsy enough to understand is that doesn't mean generalizations should not be used, they should, they just aren't a guarantee. This doesn't mean that people aren't unique or complicated, it means that people, and specifically certain groups of people, have something in common, or maybe a lot of things in common. Yes, women have many things in common. Sure there are exceptions, but as a gender there are a lot of things that women have in common just like as a gender there are many things that men have in common. It's not wrong to say what those things are. You are the one who is having trouble separating out the distinction there.

In case it's been missed, my "Chick Logic" college curriculum posts contain experienced wisdom layered under a thick veneer of misogynistic sarcasm. There's truth within, but please never take them 100% seriously.

DaveB is correct that individual situations vary radically, but I think is mistaking "being friends" with "The Friend Zone" concept. Being platonic friends who eventually become more is a natural part of countless relationships, where as the "The Friend Zone" concept is predicated on a single situation: One person wants to be more than friends while the other one doesn't. I'm not sure that he using himself and his wife as an example fits this situation, unless his wife was enamored with him while he wished to only be friends prior to their relationship, or vice versa. And no one can say that "The Friend Zone" (more to say the concept that tag represents) doesn't exist. It's victims are legion, although the reasons why one participant wishes to remain "only friends" are indeed as varied as the aforementioned snow flakes.

The end point of my original rant is simply this: You must fight tooth and nail to get out of "The Friend Zone". Waiting for the other person to change their mind or realize "you really are the one" is generally a guarantee the situation will never change. That's not to say making every effort will change it either (there may actually be no hope because you really are a fugly bastard) but at least by making the effort, you can convince yourself that there's no point pursing the relationship further, and can focus yourself on pursing another relationship without a lifetime of "What If's" hanging over your head.

Pretty much. Judd, the thing is that were not offering you a definite answer. Nor should there be one, because like Dave pointed out, it's about a human being, therefore complicated and singular, and like Death Surge pointed out, there is the Friend Zone, which also exist for every girl out there. The "in" and "out" of that said zone vary, which is why it's tough to guess what's going on in her head.

But honestly, I've been facing a similar situation twice. I got frustrated of been on the side, so I offered the choice. Both led to nothing, the other directly to my marriage. But the friendship, like someone stated above, would have changed anyway, so at least you take the chance of getting something out of it. That whole making out thing and we're still friend is both unhealthy and indicative of feelings she might have.

It's a shitty situation, but you'll grow out stronger out of it, regardless of the outcome.



And Miyagi, the reason why I'll always take a swing at you is that you give a complimentary offering of pure dumbness and empty meaning in every post you write. I don't care if we had an argument months ago, it's what you write now that is stupid, again. I honestly don't know what happened to you in the past, who abused you, hit you or whatever, but you should stop having this narcissist vision of yourself because the reality so far is that you're a small man with the head big as a Zeppelin who's out to prove he's someone he's not.

I do not have a "friend zone," but, then again, I'm not a girl. Perhaps referring to adult females as "girls" is what put you out of the running in the first place?

The women I know (note I do not say "all women" or "most women") with whom I have spoken about this matter do not have a "friend zone" either. We just have a "I don't really like you enough to want to date you/sleep with you" zone. Perhaps you just call it the "friend zone" to make yourselves feel better about being rejected?

In any case, JuddL, to answer your original question, and to concur with my husband, just let go. Be her friend, whatever, but eight boyfriends in six years and none of them were you? No, no, no...

p.s. - Swedish, could you please take some time away from leveling hilarious insults at DaveB and enlighten me - What, exactly, is it that I have in common with "a lot" of women? Could you make a list, please? While you're at it, care to make a similar list of what you and DaveB and JuddL and Martin Savage and all of the other men in here have in common?

Oh and so we're clear, most women are completely unaware of their Friend Zone. But it's there.

So I have a secret friend zone of which I am unaware?

Once again, my experience suggests otherwise. Removing current happy relationship from the equation, I've been interested in women with whom I've been friends plenty of times. Some were absolutely, undeniably aware of this and persisted in the type of behavior that I think JuddL would find pretty familiar, and some were quite surprised when they found out and felt genuinely bad about there being any sort of ambiguity to the relationship.

Furthermore, I found out that I'd done a pretty similar thing without knowing it to a girl with whom I'd been friends for years (only found out after someone else told me). So do I have "a Friend Zone?"

Also, in regard to Death Surge's distinction between "the Friend Zone" and platonic friends becoming romantically involved, I offer that, in the latter situation, at some point, one of the platonic friends will inevitably enter this so-called "Friend Zone" from the other's perspective for a while, unless both of them happen to recognize at the exact same time that the relationship should be furthered. Negotiating platonic friendship into romance isn't usually as simple as falling into bed together, so there's bound to be some intermittent time in the "Friend Zone."

I think most people have been in a situation where they were not on the same level of attraction with someone else and they or the other person was misinterpreted as being more (or less) interested than they really were. That's a natural, common, and understandable difference in the interpretation of the same, ambigious situation from a "we're friends" versus "we're attracted" perspective.

"Making out" isn't ambiguous. It is understandable that sometimes affectionately friendly gestures can be interpreted as more flirtatious or sexual than intended, but actual sexual behavior is not something "just friends" do. It would be understandable if she gave him a quick kiss on the lips or cheek, and he wanted to move it to a deeper kiss and she stopped him with a "we're just friends." Or if a little casual flirting became serious 'hitting on' and one party stopped and said they didn't really mean to suggest they were interested in sex. That's a miscommunication.

Making out with someone you know is interested in having a sexual relationship with you, then saying you're not interested in that kind of relationship is inappropriate and misleading. She's either misguiding herself into thinking it's ok to engage in sexual behavior both outside her current relationship and with someone in whom she isn't interested, or she's misguiding him by saying she isn't interested when she is. Either way, that's a messed up scenario that is more than a simple "I read more into it than there was."

She was testing the waters. Apparently they were lukewarm at best.


This is totally incoherent.

That's a nice fairy tale there, but your trash talking responses to my posts are always of zero substance, you just say in essence "your dumb poopypants" so it's not really too believable. You even agree with me in this thread yet you still talk shit. Not bright.

Wow, I'm assuming you are serious, you just said you don't have a friend zone and then said you have zone that is exactly what the friend zone is.

First of all for the billionth time it's not necessarily "all" it's most.

You I don't know, so I don't know for sure what you have in common with other women. But I know what a lot of women have in common. They like to gossip, shop, look cute, dance, get really excited about something, anything that doesn not involve math, etc. There are exceptions of course, I need to say that five hundred times for people in here apparently, but those things I mentioned sure as hell are very common with with most women in america. For men it's sports, and various outlets where they attempt to be some kind of a badass.

This sounds like a bad episode of Dawson's Creek.

....I wonder if she was a "chipmunk cheeked cunt."

Wow. And you wonder why we think you're an ass.


That certainly seems descriptive of you, anyway.

I never said I wondered about anyhting like that. But you honestly don't believe that my statement of what a lot of women have in common is true? You really don't think most women do those things? Might not be true of you, but that doesn't mean it's not still something most women have in common. Not that hard to separate out really.