CHUD.com Community › Forums › CREATURE CORNER › Creature Corner Main › Who Has had the Most Influence on Horror?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Who Has had the Most Influence on Horror?

post #1 of 50
Thread Starter 
OK, I've been saving this one for a special occasion, and posting's been kinda slow 'round these parts the last few weeks, soooooo. . .

Which individual do you yhink has had the most influence on horror as a genre? There's a lot of likely candidates; Edgar Allan Poe, for influencing so many that came after him, and writing horror stories that are taught in school as honest-to-God , "respectable" Litt-ra-chure? Stephen King for writing books that have sold millions and millions of copies and (arguably) bringing more people to the genre than anyone before him? George Romero for directing "Night of the Living Dead" and its sequels, spawning the zombie craze that has permeated movies and books ever since, and shows no signs of slowing down? John Carpenter for (among other things) inventing the slasher flick as we know it with "Halloween"?

Personally, I think the title has to go to H.P. Lovecraft. I read an intro to a graphic novel called "Lovecraft" that was written by John Carpenter, wherein he says the same thing, pointing out that it's sort of a rite of passage for young horror writers to write a Lovecraftian story, as many do. He goes on to say that the very fact that we have the word "Lovecraftian" in our cultural lexicon is amazing in and of itself. How many other authors do we have that that can be said about? Shakespeare, Dickens, and - more narrowly - Orwell? No one else leaps to mind. And when someone says "Lovecraftian" in reference to horror fiction, we know exactly what they mean.

But looking a little deeper, we see that the homage paid to HPL isn't just a few scattered stories by other authors trying out their supernatural chops. Arkham House Publishing was started by friends of HPL after his death, not only to publish his work in a more mass market way than it had been previously, but as a showcase for those founders and others to openly write stories FIRMLY in the Lovecraftian style. And there are still works like this coming out today. Again, how many authors can boast such a thing (and remember, to many, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery)?

looking deeper still, we can see HPL's fingerprints all over other authors' work in less obvious ways. Sure, "Crouch End" by Stephen King was overtly Lovecraftian. But one could argue (and I don't think Steve would disagree) that the concept of other dimensions and dimensional beings of great power seeking to exert influence over the multiverse he based his magnum opus "Ginslinger" series on was heavily influenced by Lovecraft. Dean R. Koontz actually has written a (very) few decent novels. Among them is "Phantoms" (I kinda liked the movie, too; sue me). The central theme of the Ancient Enemy, an amorphous, incredibly ancient and undying, psychically powerful and malevolent being tormenting man from his earliest pre-history can be said to have echoes of the Cthulhu Mythos reverberating thru it. I even read a sword and sorcery yarn by Clifford Simak called "Where the Evil Dwells", wherein early on in their quest, the band of heroes that are the book's central protagonists encounter an ancient temple, and after entering are almost overcome by an incredibly powerful, incredibly old, and incredibly evil force that they can sense moving into our world from somewhere else, filling their minds with twisted, terrifying images. The priest in the group manages to banish the entities before anyone comes to harm, and explains that these things are "The Old Ones", powerful evil beings that ruled the world in the time before man. Sound familiar?

There's a fake version of "The Necronomicon" that appears in the religion (!) sections of bookstores, alongside "The Satanic Bible" (I know this because I worked in a bookstore as a teen, and stocked it there myself). Metallica has written songs about his work ("Call of Ktulu" , "Creeping Death" and "The Thing That Should Not Be"). Old School RPG enthusiasts will recall there was a chapter in the 1st printing of "Deities and Demigods" providing stats & descriptions for the gods and beings of the Cthulhu mythos. As a DM, I myself based a years long campaign on them. And if you've ever played Palladium Books' games, they call the unseen and powerful, ancient and long banished old gods of their Palladium Fantasy RPG "The Great Old Ones". Again, does that sound familiar? And if you've ever read any of their sourcebooks, you can't TELL me Vampire intelligences and Splugorth lords (as well as a host of other evil entities from other dimensions) don't look like something HPL would dream up, with all the eyes and tentacles. And of course, thee's the "Call of Cthulhu" RPG and CCG themselves.

And, according to a blurb on Shocklines.com, HPL made more money while he was alive revising the work of other authors for publication under their names & not his, further spreading his influence in perhaps an insidious manner.

Carpenter says that Lovecraft's themes were revolutionary, and have influenced almost all who have come after him. To be sure, there are other authors who have written supernatural horror stories, before or contemporaneously with HPL that dealt with similar themes, William Hope Hodgson being a good example. But (and be honest now) how many of us have heard of him? I actually had to go pull a short story collection off the shelf to recall his name. And if you've ever read any of his stuff, while it is very creative, it's kind of annoying and. . . tentative . . . ? (read "The Hog" if you don't believe me) in its style. It's little wonder HPL outshines him and his other contemporaries, for the sheer brilliance, clarity and audacity of his style. These were tales with massive, awesome (Cyclopean, if you will; I just LOVE that word! Only ever saw one other author use it besides HPL) implications. Few dared to undertake such grand schemes before HPL paved the way.

So, for paving that way, thrilling and terrifying millions directly and indirectly for almost a century, My vote goes to HPL.

What say you all?
post #2 of 50
Two words. Roger Corman. (Shifts eyes) That's all I got.
post #3 of 50
Thread Starter 
One could argue that the creatures from "Humanoids from the Deep" are heavily influenced by the Deep Ones of "The Shadow Over Innsmouth". Even ol' Rog wasn't immune. . . .
post #4 of 50
I'd say Corman was a massive influence on horror cinema as it exists today, as his fast, cheap'n'easy earmarks are all over about 90% of all horror film output since 1960, for better or for worse. And even if that's the bottom 90%, it still is a very significant influence. And I'd say his movies had an effect on even the great classic horror flicks like John Carpenter's The Thing.
post #5 of 50
I'd say The Bible and all of it's contributors. The dead coming back to life, demons, ghosts..they're all staples of horror that can trace their roots back to the bible.
post #6 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
I'd say The Bible and all of it's contributors. The dead coming back to life, demons, ghosts..they're all staples of horror that can trace their roots back to the bible.
Good Answer.
post #7 of 50
Not sure if you're just making a joke, but all those things predate the bible by centuries.
post #8 of 50
The Ancient Sumerians. They invented recorded storytelling as we know it, after all.

But seriously, I'd say Poe and Lovecraft are by far the strongest candidates if you're looking at authors. Iggy's posted pretty defitive arguments why Lovecraft, but his influence lies more in the supernatural end of modern horror- Poe has had enormous influence on the significant portion of the genre based on more mundane madness, psychology and death.

As far as filmakers go, there are many far more important than Roger Corman. Robert Wise, Alfred Hitchock, George Romero, Tod Browning, Roman Polanski, Herk Harvey, FW Murmau...
post #9 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey
Not sure if you're just making a joke, but all those things predate the bible by centuries.
I don't know if he was either, but how far back in time are we going to go here? I'm sure cavemen had some pretty scary scenarios sketched out on the rocks back in the day.
post #10 of 50
Thread Starter 
And the Bible did disseminate the themes very effectively to a great number of people the world over. Corman's an interesting choice. Hard to argue with Stormin's premise, in that (in terms of style, execution and and budget, if not subject matter) Corman does seem to have left an imprint on a LOT of what we see in modern horror films. Xag makes a good point about the Lovecraft/Poe dichotomy, as well. HPL cites Poe as a major influence, so it's somewhat surprising HPL went the other way in his writing.
post #11 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagarath Ankor
But seriously, I'd say Poe and Lovecraft are by far the strongest candidates if you're looking at authors. Iggy's posted pretty defitive arguments why Lovecraft, but his influence lies more in the supernatural end of modern horror- Poe has had enormous influence on the significant portion of the genre based on more mundane madness, psychology and death....
After thinking about this post some more, and thinking I agree with you, I'd like to see this fleshed out a little more. What are some of the things Poe has influenced in more recent times? Other than the Roger Corman adaptations of his work from the 60's, of course. While I enjoy Poe's work, I was neevr as big a fan of it as I am of HPL's, & therefore haven't been able to spot his influence as well. Gimme some things that'll make me go "Hmmmm."
post #12 of 50
From a cinematic viewpoint, statisticians who track the 18-29 year old demographic have had the biggest influence. Tracking their dollars has influenced everything form low-budget monster films to slashers to J-Horror. Any individual filmaker who makes an innovation creates an instant new sub genre that these actuaries cause to becomes so diluted that nothing of it's originality remains. While you can name standouts in the field (the aforementioned Hitchcock, Romero, Carpenter, etc.) their long term influence is nothing compared to the studio's accounting departments.
post #13 of 50
In terms of an overall influence..............Edgar Allan Poe, with Lovecraft coming a close second. Even H.P. would agree, as he pretty much idolized Poe. While there were certainly plenty of myths, legends, superstitions, and fiction writers before their time, it is Poe and Lovecraft that shaped the foundations of what horror has become since their time as authors. Without them, most horror conventions and concepts would even exist, at least not in their current form. Since then, the biggest literary influence would likely be Stephen King, with only a handful of others coming close (like Ray Bradbury and Richard Matheson). You also have to take into account the vast influence of Tales From The Crypt, Vault of Horror, Weird Tales, and all those other comics and magazines that have inspired countless generations of horrorphiles since first being published back in the day.

In terms of cinema, I'd have to go with Roger Corman, Val Lewton, Alfred Hitchcock, James Whale, Tod Browning, Jack Arnold, Terence Fisher, and Mario Bava. While many other directors have helped change the face of horror in film (Romero, Cronenberg, Carpenter, etc.), pretty much everything stems from what that group created.
post #14 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
And the Bible did disseminate the themes very effectively to a great number of people the world over.

Yeah, this is what I was getting at, I just worded it very poorly. The themes and concepts may predate the Bible, but what had more of a hand in introducing those themes and influencing most modern horror writers? That's what I meant by tracing their roots, not that the concepts of the supernatural hadn't been a part of storytelling and religion before The Bible. But, like Nexus-7 said, you could keep tracing the actual roots of horror stories and folklore all the way back to the earliest cave paintings.
post #15 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Death Surge
From a cinematic viewpoint, statisticians who track the 18-29 year old demographic have had the biggest influence. Tracking their dollars has influenced everything form low-budget monster films to slashers to J-Horror. Any individual filmaker who makes an innovation creates an instant new sub genre that these actuaries cause to becomes so diluted that nothing of it's originality remains. While you can name standouts in the field (the aforementioned Hitchcock, Romero, Carpenter, etc.) their long term influence is nothing compared to the studio's accounting departments.
Cynical, but truthful as ever. What about from a non-cinematic perspective?
post #16 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Yeah, this is what I was getting at, I just worded it very poorly. The themes and concepts may predate the Bible, but what had more of a hand in introducing those themes and influencing most modern horror writers? That's what I meant by tracing their roots, not that the concepts of the supernatural hadn't been a part of storytelling and religion before The Bible. But, like Nexus-7 said, you could keep tracing the actual roots of horror stories and folklore all the way back to the earliest cave paintings.
While the test of time is necessary, to at least some extent to gauge the influence of any individual figure, just because the cave guys are the oldest doesn't NECESSARILY mean they're the biggest influence. Robert Oppenheimer didn't invent the bomb as a weapon, but ya gotta admit he and his team out at Yucca Flats had a hell of an impact on how that weapon works and is now perceived.
post #17 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
Cynical, but truthful as ever. What about from a non-cinematic perspective?
You've touched on all the heavy hitters with regards to literature, with Poe and Lovecraft the obvious influence of generations to come, and King the major contemporary contributor. One could make a case for Mary Shelley or Bram Stoker for single novel influences, and I wish that Clive Barker had created more of an impact on the scene, as his works invigorated a stagnating market in the 80's, but he unfortanetly flamed out (no gay pun intended) too quickly for that to be true.

Behind the scenes, Ellen Datlow and Jeff Gelb should be given some credit for the collective editing duties on various horror anthology series that manage to give exposure to a lot of new voices in the field. I credit Jeff Gelb's Hot Blood series (I seem to be constantly pimping those books) for exposing me to a lot of great small press authors, and Datlow's yearly "Best Fantasy and Horror" anthology is probably hands down one of the finest sources for great literary short stories and poetry of a horrorifc nature.
post #18 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Death Surge
You've touched on all the heavy hitters with regards to literature, with Poe and Lovecraft the obvious influence of generations to come, and King the major contemporary contributor. One could make a case for Mary Shelley or Bram Stoker for single novel influences,
Actually, the whole Romantic era was pretty rich in scary bits. Even Byron, Shelley, Keats, and Coleridge had dark supernatural elements in their work. Hawthorne did, too, for that matter (especially in his short stories). Poe probably leads the pack in terms of consistently influential output that could be called horror, but Mary Shelley created the first sustained horror narrative (and science-fiction narrative) in the modern sense.

Interestingly, Polidori's The Vampyre, which arose from the same get-together that spawned Frankenstein, is considered the first modern vampire story (though, I've heard, not a very good one). Regardless of quality, it started a big craze in the early 19th century and inspired the other Gothic authors of the period (Poe included) and, ultimately, Bram Stoker. From the "Gothic fiction" definition on Wikipedia:

Quote:
The Vampyre has been accounted by cultural critic Christopher Frayling as one of the most influential works of fiction ever written and spawned a craze for Vampire fiction and theatre (and latterly film) which has not ceased to this day.
So, if we consider that the vampire is still one of the most popular concepts in horror and we're talking most influential of all time, it very well may be a novel that very few people bother to read these days. I think that's kind of neat.
post #19 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
While the test of time is necessary, to at least some extent to gauge the influence of any individual figure, just because the cave guys are the oldest doesn't NECESSARILY mean they're the biggest influence. Robert Oppenheimer didn't invent the bomb as a weapon, but ya gotta admit he and his team out at Yucca Flats had a hell of an impact on how that weapon works and is now perceived.
Yeah, I wasn't trying to derail your thread, as I know you were setting out to identify specific individuals and their influence on horror, but I was just looking at what influenced them and many of the themes and concepts they injected into their work. While the elements of the supernatural, that I mentioned, may not have been strictly invented by the Bible, I'd have to say it had a huge hand in influencing how those themes were presented by many horror authors.
post #20 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
So, if we consider that the vampire is still one of the most popular concepts in horror and we're talking most influential of all time, it very well may be a novel that very few people bother to read these days. I think that's kind of neat.
I always find those situations interesting as well. There's a myriad of examples where someone responsible for an innovation or creating the formula of a "Craze" becomes lost in time due to a superior based on successor. Stoker's "Dracula" in this case, and with regards to the Slasher flick formula, "Halloween" overshadowing Bob Clark's "Black Christmas" (all due respect to "Psycho" intended).

It unfortunately also happens when an inferior product just has a better publicist, with Microsoft Windows destroying OS/2 an example close to my own tech geek heart.
post #21 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Yeah, I wasn't trying to derail your thread, as I know you were setting out to identify specific individuals and their influence on horror, but I was just looking at what influenced them and many of the themes and concepts they injected into their work. While the elements of the supernatural, that I mentioned, may not have been strictly invented by the Bible, I'd have to say it had a huge hand in influencing how those themes were presented by many horror authors.
The thing is that the Bible influenced just about all European and American writing of the time because nearly all Europeans and Americans were Christians. It quite naturally influenced ALL art in terms of theme.

In terms of literary technique or even in regard to how the supernatural was handled, I don't think it was particularly influential or at least not moreso than Homer or Ovid. I suppose if you trace the Christian influence through The Inferno or Faust, you might naturally end up at horror, but you could also make a case for the gory bits in Shakespeare (Titus Andronicus, for instance) being precursors, and they don't rely all that heavily on Christian imagery. It's really all in how the material is handled. But the horrific supernatural stuff in the Bible doesn't seem to work in the same way that the horrific supernatural stuff in, say, Frankenstein does.
post #22 of 50
Hmmm, theme might not have been the best word to use. I was referring more to specific concepts like, for instance, vampires. While the notion of vampiric creatures can be traced back to many cultures, the standard pop culture ideas and myths associated with modern vampires include Christian elements such as crosses and holy water. Maybe not exclusively, as there are obviously stories about vampires that jettison some of the more overt Christian imagery, but I think if you were to conduct a survey many people would still associate vampires with crosses and such.
post #23 of 50
Let's not overlook the significant influences these folks have provided the genre...

Jack The Ripper
Hitler
Ed Gein
Charles Manson
John Wayne Gacy
Son Of Sam
Richard Ramirez
Ted Bundy
Jeffrey Dahmer
The Zodiac Killer
post #24 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Hmmm, theme might not have been the best word to use. I was referring more to specific concepts like, for instance, vampires. While the notion of vampiric creatures can be traced back to many cultures, the standard pop culture ideas and myths associated with modern vampires include Christian elements such as crosses and holy water. Maybe not exclusively, as there are obviously stories about vampires that jettison some of the more overt Christian imagery, but I think if you were to conduct a survey many people would still associate vampires with crosses and such.
True, but there's nothing particularly horrifying about crosses (at least in the sense that we're talking about) and holy water, in and of themselves. Linking them to horror in this way is like linking the creation of the automobile to Christine.
post #25 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Uth Vaspetad
Let's not overlook the significant influences these folks have provided the genre...

Jack The Ripper
Hitler
Ed Gein
Charles Manson
John Wayne Gacy
Son Of Sam
Richard Ramirez
Ted Bundy
Jeffrey Dahmer
The Zodiac Killer
In terms of filmic horror, you can thank the folks who made great strides in weapon technology directly prior to WWI probably more than any of those other real-life influences. I've heard some film scholar types attribute the rise of the early horror film (Browning, etc.) to the public's fascination and repulsion at war veterans who had been thoroughly disfigured due to the new types of warfare* that arose at this time.

*This also includes advances in medicine that prevented these horribly battered people from dying from their wounds as they might have previously.
post #26 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
True, but there's nothing particularly horrifying about crosses (at least in the sense that we're talking about) and holy water, in and of themselves.
Yeah, but I'm looking at it more as how a concept evolves over time. With vampires, it's how each author took the concept and added elements from their own religious beliefs until it reached it's modern and most accepted form.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
Linking them to horror in this way is like linking the creation of the automobile to Christine.
I look at it as linking the idea of possession, whether it be by demon or spirit, to Christine. While the concept of possession may predate the Bible, it was still very influential in spreading this concept to the masses.
post #27 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Yeah, but I'm looking at it more as how a concept evolves over time. With vampires, it's how each author took the concept and added elements from their own religious beliefs until it reached it's modern and most accepted form.
This doesn't seem to me to be an influence on "horror," though. Horror can't operate without exploiting the fears of any given culture. The concepts you're talking about are part of the culture, thus they're fair game for exploitation. Nothing more than that, really. It's like saying "television" is an important concept to horror because it plays an important part in Poltergeist, Nightmare on Elm Street III, and countless other horror films. But there's really nothing inherently horror-oriented about TV. Except for American Idol.

Quote:
I look at it as linking the idea of possession, whether it be by demon or spirit, to Christine. While the concept of possession may predate the Bible, it was still very influential in spreading this concept to the masses.
I'll grant you that demonic possession and the concept of the Christian hell (the latter of which was vague until Dante and others elaborated upon it) are horror motifs that were popularized among Western cultures with the Bible, but the context doesn't really suggest horror.

But I think this whole line of thinking is a little off-track. The Bible influenced EVERYTHING in this culture, so pinning it down as a key influence on horror is sort of weird. You could make an argument that the Bible is also a key influence on science-fiction, fantasy, romance, and even detective novels, if only for the fact that the ethics of Christianity have permeated the West for around 2000 years.
post #28 of 50
Both good points, while I will concede that I was looking at the influencing of specific concepts rather than the overall nature of horror as a genre, I wouldn't mind addressing your points a little further. But I'm afraid I might be derailing Iggy's thread since he was looking for specific individuals.
post #29 of 50
As far as influencing the art of horror-related storytelling, I gotta go with Jacob and Wilhelm Grimm. Regardless of demographic, collecting oral folktales into published form for popular mass consumption ushered a new era in writing fiction and exposing more people to classic (and scary) stories.

Because the majority of horror revolves around mortality, my smartass answer (and a play on words from my original pick) is this guy:

post #30 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
This doesn't seem to me to be an influence on "horror," though. Horror can't operate without exploiting the fears of any given culture. The concepts you're talking about are part of the culture, thus they're fair game for exploitation. Nothing more than that, really. It's like saying "television" is an important concept to horror because it plays an important part in Poltergeist, Nightmare on Elm Street III, and countless other horror films. But there's really nothing inherently horror-oriented about TV. Except for American Idol.



I'll grant you that demonic possession and the concept of the Christian hell (the latter of which was vague until Dante and others elaborated upon it) are horror motifs that were popularized among Western cultures with the Bible, but the context doesn't really suggest horror.

But I think this whole line of thinking is a little off-track. The Bible influenced EVERYTHING in this culture, so pinning it down as a key influence on horror is sort of weird. You could make an argument that the Bible is also a key influence on science-fiction, fantasy, romance, and even detective novels, if only for the fact that the ethics of Christianity have permeated the West for around 2000 years.
Ok, I'm going to go ahead and address a couple of points here and I hope Iggy doesn't mind...

On one hand, you say that the Bible influenced everything in this culture and that horror can't operate without exploiting the fears of that culture. Hasn't then the Christian themes that influenced our culture been somewhat responsible in shaping some of those fears? And modern horror adapted to exploit those fears? Or does it come down to stripping horror to it's basic nature of "Fight or Flight"?

Just wondering that if the Bible and Christian ethics have influenced everything in our culture, then hasn't our culture somewhat influenced the nature of horror fiction?
post #31 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Yeah, I wasn't trying to derail your thread, as I know you were setting out to identify specific individuals and their influence on horror, but I was just looking at what influenced them and many of the themes and concepts they injected into their work. While the elements of the supernatural, that I mentioned, may not have been strictly invented by the Bible, I'd have to say it had a huge hand in influencing how those themes were presented by many horror authors.
Oh, I didn't think you derailed things at all. I think the Bible was a very interesting answer. I was just playing Devil's advocate (I am a lawyer after all, and I'M A FAN O' MAN!!!). I ultimately agree w/ you that the Bible, the most influential book of all time, according to an article I perused in a waiting room just yesterday, has had a huge impact on our concepts of the supernatural.
post #32 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
Hmmm, theme might not have been the best word to use. I was referring more to specific concepts like, for instance, vampires. While the notion of vampiric creatures can be traced back to many cultures, the standard pop culture ideas and myths associated with modern vampires include Christian elements such as crosses and holy water. Maybe not exclusively, as there are obviously stories about vampires that jettison some of the more overt Christian imagery, but I think if you were to conduct a survey many people would still associate vampires with crosses and such.
There are also vampire legends in many non Christian cultures, pre-dating Christianity (China and ancient Greece, for example). THAT strikes me as remarkable, that so many diverse cultures can develop legends about such a specific object of fear, so similar to each other.
post #33 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
But I think this whole line of thinking is a little off-track. The Bible influenced EVERYTHING in this culture, so pinning it down as a key influence on horror is sort of weird. You could make an argument that the Bible is also a key influence on science-fiction, fantasy, romance, and even detective novels, if only for the fact that the ethics of Christianity have permeated the West for around 2000 years.
I beg to differ. The Bible did influence everything in Western culture, INCLUDING concepts that evolved into what we now think of as "horror fiction". Consequently, what would be so weird about making arguments for its influence on other genres like sci fi(Noah and the Ark as a last man on earth type story, maybe?)? Or romance (David & Bathsheba or Samson and Delilah, anyone?)? College courses in even secular schools do just that sort of thing, analyzing the Bible as literature.
post #34 of 50
Thread Starter 
We're all forgetting the obvious choice, though. Where would modern horror be without Alex Riviello?
post #35 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
There are also vampire legends in many non Christian cultures, pre-dating Christianity (China and ancient Greece, for example). THAT strikes me as remarkable, that so many diverse cultures can develop legends about such a specific object of fear, so similar to each other.

Oh, I know. That's why included this line in my post...

Quote:
While the notion of vampiric creatures can be traced back to many cultures...

But, I agree with you. The similarities are remarkable.
post #36 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
I beg to differ. The Bible did influence everything in Western culture, INCLUDING concepts that evolved into what we now think of as "horror fiction". Consequently, what would be so weird about making arguments for its influence on other genres like sci fi(Noah and the Ark as a last man on earth type story, maybe?)? Or romance (David & Bathsheba or Samson and Delilah, anyone?)? College courses in even secular schools do just that sort of thing, analyzing the Bible as literature.

It just seems to me that if you say the Bible influenced EVERYTHING about our culture that you also have to accept that the culture influences the individual and the individual influences the art and the concepts and themes presented within the art.
post #37 of 50
Thread Starter 
. . . .which in turn influence the culture they spring from.
post #38 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
After thinking about this post some more, and thinking I agree with you, I'd like to see this fleshed out a little more. What are some of the things Poe has influenced in more recent times? Other than the Roger Corman adaptations of his work from the 60's, of course. While I enjoy Poe's work, I was neevr as big a fan of it as I am of HPL's, & therefore haven't been able to spot his influence as well. Gimme some things that'll make me go "Hmmmm."
Well...
Firstly, of course, let us not forget that Poe, in Dupin, invented the literary detective as a character (the murder mystery genre itself predates him, and was devised by Wilkie Collins). Said literary detective led to Sherlock Holmes, which led to the popularising of that form of fiction, and traces, by a certain convoluted line, to such films as Se7en, or any other serial killer film founded on the investigative point of view.
Secondly, I'd argue that cinematic descents into madness such as The Shining are very, very Poe, and that form of narrative would probably not exist without him.
post #39 of 50
Thread Starter 
Nice. How about in litt-ra-chure itself? Other than HPL, which has already been alluded to as an admittedly Poe-influenced writer, who else has Edgar's stamp to them?
post #40 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
Nice. How about in litt-ra-chure itself? Other than HPL, which has already been alluded to as an admittedly Poe-influenced writer, who else has Edgar's stamp to them?
I think that King owes a lot to Poe and Lovecraft.

Madness, paranoia, cats back from the dead.
post #41 of 50
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
We're all forgetting the obvious choice, though. Where would modern horror be without Alex Riviello?

[In my best, I-just-told-a-joke-that-bombed-horribly, Jim Norton voice]:

Nothin'?
post #42 of 50
Chirp! Chirp! Are those crickets I hear?

post #43 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IggytheBorg
I beg to differ. The Bible did influence everything in Western culture, INCLUDING concepts that evolved into what we now think of as "horror fiction". Consequently, what would be so weird about making arguments for its influence on other genres like sci fi(Noah and the Ark as a last man on earth type story, maybe?)? Or romance (David & Bathsheba or Samson and Delilah, anyone?)? College courses in even secular schools do just that sort of thing, analyzing the Bible as literature.
You may be right about the particular stories you mention (although it could be said that the Bible, itself, was influenced by the appearance of romance and sci-fi elements in earlier myths), but is there a particular segment you have in mind that actually conjures up thoughts of horror? Revelation, perhaps, but even that ends on a positive note for believers (and, of course, the intended audience is believers or potential believers - it's not meant to scare for the sake of scaring).

It seemed like Amphibatron was making a case for the Bible as a horror progenitor on the basis of religious iconography later incorporated into horror archetypes. This seems to me like saying that the creation of the atom bomb is a horror influence or that the human body, itself, is a horror influence. Certainly, nuclear annihilation and the deterioration (see zombies) or revolt of the human body (see Cronenberg) figure into horror, but they're not really "influences" per se. They're simply ongoing motifs in culture that are invoked by the horror genre. They're made scary by how they're worked into the genre (or made narrative or literary, in the case of nuclear annihilation, which is inherently scary).
post #44 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveB
You may be right about the particular stories you mention (although it could be said that the Bible, itself, was influenced by the appearance of romance and sci-fi elements in earlier myths), but is there a particular segment you have in mind that actually conjures up thoughts of horror? Revelation, perhaps, but even that ends on a positive note for believers (and, of course, the intended audience is believers or potential believers - it's not meant to scare for the sake of scaring).


It seemed like Amphibatron was making a case for the Bible as a horror progenitor on the basis of religious iconography later incorporated into horror archetypes. This seems to me like saying that the creation of the atom bomb is a horror influence or that the human body, itself, is a horror influence. Certainly, nuclear annihilation and the deterioration (see zombies) or revolt of the human body (see Cronenberg) figure into horror, but they're not really "influences" per se. They're simply ongoing motifs in culture that are invoked by the horror genre. They're made scary by how they're worked into the genre (or made narrative or literary, in the case of nuclear annihilation, which is inherently scary).
I think the problem here is that you are getting hung up on what has influenced horror(or fear)as a base emotional response exploited by the genre and the horror genre, itself. To me, no one has really influenced or changed the basic nature of fear as depicted in horror stories. Fear is fear. It is the individual elements incorporated into the stories and used to exploit that fear that has influenced horror as a genre and the reason you could nominate individual elements, themes or people and their influences. In that way, the atom bomb was a huge influence on horror and science fiction stories. The same as the Bible in regards to the supernatural.

It's not that you have to look to any particular section of the Bible that conjures specific thoughts of horror(such as Revelations), but simply that the Bible was based on supernatural concepts in the first place. Obviously, there are traceable influences for the supernatural elements in the Bible, but as Iggy mentioned earlier, it is what had the most hand in disseminating these ideas to our modern culture. Which would make the Bible a key influence, in that regard. It comes down to what influenced the genre, not fear as a basic emotional response.
post #45 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
I think the problem here is that you are getting hung up on what has influenced horror(or fear)as a base emotional response exploited by the genre and the horror genre, itself. To me, no one has really influenced or changed the basic nature of fear as depicted in horror stories. Fear is fear. It is the individual elements incorporated into the stories and used to exploit that fear that has influenced horror as a genre and the reason you could nominate individual elements, themes or people and their influences. In that way, the atom bomb was a huge influence on horror and science fiction stories. The same as the Bible in regards to the supernatural.
But what CAN'T be considered an influence on horror in this regard? That's why this argument is nonsensical. There's nothing particularly scary about the Bible or the human body. It's what the horror genre does with them that makes them scary. You can make this claim about anything in existence - yogurt (the Stuff), bunnies (the Night of the Lepus), whatever... This doesn't mean that yogurt and bunnies are "influences" on horror.

There's also nothing particularly "scary" about the supernatural, in and of itself, especially in the way it's used in myth. Zeus turns himself into a swan and fucks women, Jehovah comes down and hangs with Abraham, Jesus rises from the dead. The mere presence of the supernatural has never had anything more to do with horror than the mere presence of axes has. Superman is supernatural, and he's not scary. Paul Bunyan has an axe, and he's not scary. The Bible is an influence in the way that the English language is an influence - it's so foundational that it's barely worth mentioning at all.

Quote:
It's not that you have to look to any particular section of the Bible that conjures thoughts of horror(such as Revelations), but simply the Bible being based on the supernatural in the first place. Obviously, there are traceable influences for the supernatural elements in the Bible, but as Iggy mentioned earlier, it is what had the most hand in disseminating these ideas to our modern culture. Which would make the Bible a key influence, in that regard. It comes down to what influenced the genre, not fear as a basic emotional response.
Seems to me that when something influences ALL Western genres, it doesn't really carry much weight when you claim it for one, in particular. Now, if you made a case for a particular story in the Bible that features specific tropes also common to Poe, Lovecraft, King, or Craven, you might have something.
post #46 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
It comes down to what influenced the genre, not fear as a basic emotional response.
Yeah, but the thread asks "who?" not "what?".

We obviously can't have horror without mortality, fear, survival instinct, etc.
post #47 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8
I think that King owes a lot to Poe and Lovecraft.

Madness, paranoia, cats back from the dead.
I agree, and we know how much King has subsequently influenced things.

On a broader scale, however, Poe is actually credited with inventing the modern short story. That's a pretty big influence.
post #48 of 50
Quote:
But what CAN'T be considered an influence on horror in this regard? That's why this argument is nonsensical. There's nothing particularly scary about the Bible or the human body. It's what the horror genre does with them that makes them scary. You can make this claim about anything in existence - yogurt (the Stuff), bunnies (the Night of the Lepus), whatever... This doesn't mean that yogurt and bunnies are "influences" on horror.
But that's only if you want to equate bunnies and yogurt with the broad spectrum of the supernatural. I don't look at the many themes inherent in the concepts of the supernatural the same way I would an individual thing like a car or cup of yogurt or an axe.

Quote:
There's nothing particularly scary about the Bible or the human body.
I think this depends on the individual so I can't really agree with you. In my opinion, the Bible has been used to create obedient cultures fearful of punishment. You could argue that this wasn't what the authors originally set out to accomplish( and I'd agree with you), but that is exactly what it has been appropriated for in many instances and, to me, that makes it very scary. Hell, if you want to get technical, I 'd say the fear of the body can be traced directly to guilt imbued by biblical teachings.

But, that's really what it comes down to. How does the Bible influence the culture and the individual and their fears, or more specifically in the case of our argument, how one views the supernatural and how they incorporate those views into their fiction? With vampires, it's not that religious iconography was incorporated into the story, it's why it it was added in the first place. Why does a cross repel a vampire? The basic concept of the blood sucking creature found throughout mythology and folklore was filtered through the Christian beliefs of the author and evolved into what we generally recognize as the modern vampire, thereby influencing vampire fiction.

So if you are willing to say that the Bible influenced everything about our culture, including how we view the supernatural, then how can you discount how an individual is influenced by that culture and how that influence is used to interpret certain concepts that they base their stories on?

Quote:
There's also nothing particularly "scary" about the supernatural, in and of itself, especially in the way it's used in myth. Zeus turns himself into a swan and fucks women, Jehovah comes down and hangs with Abraham, Jesus rises from the dead. The mere presence of the supernatural has never had anything more to do with horror than the mere presence of axes has. Superman is supernatural, and he's not scary. Paul Bunyan has an axe, and he's not scary. The Bible is an influence in the way that the English language is an influence - it's so foundational that it's barely worth mentioning at all.
The concept of the supernatural may not be particularly frightening to you or me, but how many superstitious cultures are based on a fear of the supernatural(the unexplainable), whether it be Zeus fucking a swan, Superman or the Christian God? If people don't understand it(whether it be friendly or intend harm)they'll more than likely run away from it or cower before it. That's how superstitions start in the first place. A specific individual may have no problem witnessing Jehova come down to talk to Abraham, but someone else may go into a fit of hysterics because they don't understand or simply can't accept what they are seeing. I'd say a person confronted by the supernatural, no matter what form it takes, is more likely to be fearful than calmly observational.


Quote:
Seems to me that when something influences ALL Western genres, it doesn't really carry much weight when you claim it for one, in particular.
I'm not really sure I understand this. It's like saying a teacher had a huge influence on a particular student, but because he also influenced a multitude of other students his influence on the one should be disregarded.
post #49 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8
Yeah, but the thread asks "who?" not "what?".
I agree that the debate is a bit off-topic and admitted as much earlier. But, since Iggy didn't mind I continued with the discussion.
post #50 of 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amphibatron
But that's only if you want to equate bunnies and yogurt with the broad spectrum of the supernatural. I don't look at the many themes inherent in the concepts of the supernatural the same way I would an individual thing like a car or cup of yogurt or an axe.
Yeah, but the supernatural stuff IN THE BIBLE is not generally supposed to be scary. Are you saying that anything supernatural is an influence on horror, even if the supernatural event in question is generally interpreted to be positive within the context of the narrative? The presence of the supernatural isn't a defining characteristic of horror, anyway. Like I mentioned, plenty of horror has no supernatural element to it at all. Just because supernatural elements appear in some horror, doesn't mean that transubstantiation leads to lycanthropy.

Basically, there's nothing the Bible offered directly to the genre, supernatural or otherwise, that wasn't there before. Every mythology in the world deals with the supernatural in some way. If you want to pin it down to specifics like the cross in vampire lore, I think that's pretty clearly a reaction to the Bible and isn't much different than Frankenstein being a reaction against man's technological hubris. Both might qualify as influences in a broad, cultural sense, but the Bible doesn't really function as a literary forebear to the horror genre. Do you get the distinction?

Quote:
I think this depends on the individual so I can't really agree with you. In my opinion, the Bible has been used to create obedient cultures fearful of punishment. You could argue that this wasn't what the authors originally set out to accomplish( and I'd agree with you), but that is exactly what it has been appropriated for in many instances and, to me, that makes it very scary. Hell, if you want to get technical, I 'd say the fear of the body can be traced directly to guilt imbued by biblical teachings.
In my opinion, Lovecraft isn't scary at all. Does that make him not a horror writer?

The way I see it, in this conversation, you can consider the Bible in one of two ways: as a literary influence or as a cultural influence.

As a literary influence, the argument fails, because while the Bible may feature supernatural events, supernatural events in literature are not unique to the Bible, but exist among all cultures. But, most importantly, none of the common motifs of the horror genre are present, most significantly, scares. If you happen to find it scary, fine. But there are probably people who find reading the Declaration of Independence deeply sexy - that doesn't make it erotica.

As a cultural influence, the argument succeeds, but is rendered impotent by two things:

1. Anything can be appropriated by horror. Take a literary reference/manmade object/philosophy/biological fact about humanity/whatever, make it scary, and you've got horror. The question is "how do you make it scary?" The Bible holds no clues for this. Poe does.

2. The Bible's influence is so far-reaching that to claim it for ANY genre doesn't tell you anything about that genre. So, yeah, technically, parts of the Bible have been appropriated by horror. But, while the horror that appropriates it may tell us something about the Bible and our reactions to it, the Bible can tell us virtually nothing about horror. If we consider Poe, Lovecraft, Shelley, etc. as influences on horror, the opposite is true. We can't learn much about Poe by watching Halloween. But, perhaps we can learn something about Halloween by reading Poe. We can see how the influence of Poe might informs how suspense is utilized in establishing fear.

Quote:
But, that's really what it comes down to. How does the Bible influence the culture and the individual and their fears, or more specifically in the case of our argument, how one views the supernatural and how they incorporate those views into their fiction? With vampires, it's not that religious iconography was incorporated into the story, it's why it it was added in the first place. Why does a cross repel a vampire? The basic concept of the blood sucking creature found throughout mythology and folklore was filtered through the Christian beliefs of the author and evolved into what we generally recognize as the modern vampire, thereby influencing vampire fiction.
The basic concept of the ghost story was filtered through modern architecture, and we ended up with the haunted house. Architecture is thus a huge influence on modern horror. The basic concept of the fear of the unknown was filtered through man's explorations into space, and we ended up with Alien. NASA is a huge influence on modern horror.

Quote:
So if you are willing to say that the Bible influenced everything about our culture, including how we view the supernatural, then how can you discount how an individual is influenced by that culture and how that influence is used to interpret certain concepts that they base their stories on?
I don't discount it. But it's a moot point.

Quote:
The concept of the supernatural may not be particularly frightening to you or me, but how many superstitious cultures are based on a fear of the supernatural(the unexplainable), whether it be Zeus fucking a swan, Superman or the Christian God? If people don't understand it(whether it be friendly or intend harm)they'll more than likely run away from it or cower before it. That's how superstitions start in the first place. A specific individual may have no problem witnessing Jehova come down to talk to Abraham, but someone else may go into a fit of hysterics because they don't understand or simply can't accept what they are seeing. I'd say a person confronted by the supernatural, no matter what form it takes, is more likely to be fearful than calmly observational.
I don't see what this has to do with anything. Are you arguing that Superman comics or the Metamorphoses or the New Testament are horror texts just because people would be scared if they saw this stuff happen in real life?

Quote:
I'm not really sure I understand this. It's like saying a teacher had a huge influence on a particular student, but because he also influenced a multitude of other students his influence on the one should be disregarded.
No, it's not. Any teacher's reach is limited. The Bible has had thousands of years to make an impact on all parts of Western culture. It's redundant in this sort of conversation to name it as an influence. You know what else it's been an influence on? Industry, ballet, politics, philosophy, cars, classical music, jazz, rock music, romance novels, sex, s/f, spy movies, architecture, poetry, sports, non-Judeo-Christian religions, restaurants, law, you, me, processed foods, and the CHUD message board! It's in the fabric of our society to the extent that pointing out its influence on a small genre of narrative art is worthless. This is not comparable to a teacher's influence on a bunch of students, no matter how large the number.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Creature Corner Main
CHUD.com Community › Forums › CREATURE CORNER › Creature Corner Main › Who Has had the Most Influence on Horror?