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Gays in the Military

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
Britons say, "Who cares."

Quote:
LONDON, May 20 — The officer, a squadron leader in the Royal Air Force, felt he had no choice. So he stood up in front of his squad of 30 to 40 people.

“I said, ‘Right, I’ve got something to tell you,’ ” he said. “ ‘I believe that for us to be able to work closely together and have faith in each other, we have to be honest and open and frank. And it has to be a two-way process, and it starts with me baring my soul. You may have heard some rumors, and yes, I have a long-term partner who is a he, not a she.’ ”

Far from causing problems, he said, he found that coming out to his troops actually increased the unit’s strength and cohesion. He had felt uneasy keeping the secret “that their boss was a poof,” as he put it, from people he worked with so closely.

Since the British military began allowing homosexuals to serve in the armed forces in 2000, none of its fears — about harassment, discord, blackmail, bullying or an erosion of unit cohesion or military effectiveness — have come to pass, according to the Ministry of Defense, current and former members of the services and academics specializing in the military. The biggest news about the policy, they say, is that there is no news. It has for the most part become a nonissue.

The Ministry of Defense does not compile figures on how many gay men and lesbians are openly serving, and it says that the number of people who have come out publicly in the past seven years is still relatively low. But it is clearly proud of how smoothly homosexuals have been integrated and is trying to make life easier for them.

“What we’re hoping to do is to, over a period of time, reinforce the message that people who are gay, lesbian and the like are welcomed in the armed forces and we don’t discriminate against them in any way,” a Defense Ministry official said in an interview, speaking on condition of anonymity in accordance with the ministry’s practice.

Nonetheless, the issue is extremely delicate now. The military does not want to be seen bragging about the success of its policy when the issue can still cause so much anguished debate in the United States. This is particularly true in light of tensions between the allies after a British coroner ruled in March that a British soldier who died four years ago was unlawfully killed by an American pilot.

For this article, the Defense Ministry refused to give permission for any member of the forces to be interviewed, either on or off the record. Those who spoke did so before the ministry made its position clear.

“We’re not looking to have quotes taken out of context in a way to imply that we’re trying to influence the debate in the United States,” the British official said. “There are some sensitivities over the timing of this. We have had communications from our counterparts in the United States, and they have asked us questions about how we’ve handled it and how it’s gone on the ground. There does seem to be some debate going on over how long the current policy will be sustainable.”

The debate in the United States was rekindled in March when Gen. Peter Pace, who as chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is the country’s top-ranking military official, told The Chicago Tribune that he believed that homosexuality was immoral.

In January, Gen. John M. Shalikashvili, who until his retirement in 1997 held the same post in the Clinton years, when the Pentagon adopted its “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy, said in an Op-Ed article in The New York Times that he now believed that the military was ready to accept gay men and lesbians. A military already stretched thin, he said, “must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.”

At least 24 countries — many of them allies of the United States, and some of them members of the coalition forces fighting alongside Americans — now allow gay soldiers to serve openly in their armed forces.

It is hard to avoid comparing the British and American systems, gay soldiers in the British forces say.

One major, an openly gay liaison officer in the British Territorial Army, told of an exchange he had in the southern Iraq city of Basra with an American staff sergeant, far from home and eager to confide.
More at link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/wo...=1&oref=slogin

When will Americans catch up with the rest of the world?
post #2 of 24
I would say on January 20, 2009 but I figure we'll probably need a couple more years after that to fix just some of the mess we're in right now. So let's go with 2010/2011?
post #3 of 24
Cue the American homophobic replies of "Well, sure, but ain't most o' them British already fags anyways? I don't think they hate the queers as much as they oughta."
post #4 of 24
So just because we're assuming that a Democrat gets elected, this should be resolved? When it was, in fact, a Democrat who instituted the "don't ask, don't tell" policy? A lot more will have to change then just the administration. We've come very far, but not far enough.
post #5 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer
Cue the American homophobic replies of "Well, sure, but ain't most o' them British already fags anyways? I don't think they hate the queers as much as they oughta."
Well they do suck on fags right in the middle of the street over there.

When in doubt- look towards the wisdom of Hicks-

Quote:
Here's how I feel about gays in the military: Anyone … dumb enough … to want to be in the military … should be allowed in. End of fucking story. That should be the only requirement. I don't care how many push-ups you can do – put on a helmet, go wait in that fox hole. We'll tell you when we need you to kill somebody. I've been watching all these Congressional hearings and all these military guys and all the pundits going, "The esprit de corps will be affected, and we are such a moral …" Excuse me, but aren't you all a bunch of fucking hired killers? Shut up! You are thugs, and when we need you to go blow the fuck out of a nation of little brown people, we'll let you know. Until then …
post #6 of 24
I think the only way gays in the military are accepted by the general American public is if Osama Bin Laden's shot dead by one.
post #7 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny
I think the only way gays in the military are accepted by the general American public is if Osama Bin Laden's shot dead by one.
You watch, that happens and that still won't get the ban reversed because of some other bullshit reason.
post #8 of 24
I think the Canadian army is in the same boat. Two officers got married a couple of years ago, and it barely got any notice.
post #9 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by juan23
So just because we're assuming that a Democrat gets elected, this should be resolved? When it was, in fact, a Democrat who instituted the "don't ask, don't tell" policy? A lot more will have to change then just the administration. We've come very far, but not far enough.
Did that Democrat have a Democratic or Republican House and Senate to deal with?
post #10 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seabass Inna Bun
Did that Democrat have a Democratic or Republican House and Senate to deal with?
At the time, Democrats controlled both the House and the Senate. It's all about not wanting to rock the boat.
post #11 of 24
You know, if I hated someone, or a certain group of people, I would want them to join the military. Seems like a surefire way to put them in harms way.

On another note, a military recruiter approached me today with a great way to, "make more money and get out of this town" regardless of the fact he doesn't know how much money I make, and I don't live in the town I was in when he talked to me. It made me think - that has to be the worst job in the world. Military recruiters must be going to hell.
post #12 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by pagoda
On another note, a military recruiter approached me today with a great way to, "make more money and get out of this town" regardless of the fact he doesn't know how much money I make, and I don't live in the town I was in when he talked to me. It made me think - that has to be the worst job in the world. Military recruiters must be going to hell.
But they get to have sex with all their underage potential recruits! And get away with it! It's surely an awesome job bullying people and not having to answer to anyone.
post #13 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by pagoda
Military recruiters must be going to hell.
When I was in basic training, one of our favorite, "games" was seeing who could come up with the most slow and painful death befitting a recruiter.
post #14 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by pagoda
It made me think - that has to be the worst job in the world. Military recruiters must be going to hell.
A lot of them don't even want to be doing that job. They're ordered to do it. What are they gonna do? Quit?

Though... one I know said he almost did.

It really is one of the lowest, most despicable jobs in the service. But in their defense, not a lot of them volunteered to do it.
post #15 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan "Nordling" Cerny
I think the only way gays in the military are accepted by the general American public is if Osama Bin Laden's shot dead by one.
Bruce Willis is gay!?
post #16 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by pagoda
It made me think - that has to be the worst job in the world. Military recruiters must be going to hell.
I was just contemplating today about staying in and becoming a recruiter

As far as the topic at hand. They'll never be full acceptance of openly gay people in the military until there's full acceptance in the civilian world.
post #17 of 24
That article blew my mind. American military culture is modeled on British military culture. If, contrary to my intuition, it really is a nonissue, it's time for us to reconsider our position.
post #18 of 24
This is excellent news, especially coming on the tails of the virtual elimination of cannibalism in the Royal Navy.
post #19 of 24
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrankCobretti
That article blew my mind. American military culture is modeled on British military culture. If, contrary to my intuition, it really is a nonissue, it's time for us to reconsider our position.
The part of the article that blew my mind? This has been in place since 2000. Not saying there weren't any articles back when this was instituted, but I can't remember this happening. I would have thought this falls under major headlines.
post #20 of 24
Why does this still bother people? Who gives a fuck what kind of hole a person likes?
post #21 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Zod
Why does this still bother people? Who gives a fuck what kind of hole a person likes?
People who sleep stacked four high and three deep.
post #22 of 24
I've heard that argument several times. I still don't understand that mentality--just because a guy is gay doesn't mean he has no control over his sexual urges. He's not going to rape the guy sitting next to him just because he thinks he's cute.
post #23 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by General Zod
Why does this still bother people? Who gives a fuck what kind of hole a person likes?
True story. Back in Boot there was this guy from the Midwest who got to San Diego and decided that maybe this wasn't the place for him. Try as he might, he couldn't get discharged. Fucker tried to break his own foot by dropping a footlocker on it and everything. No dice.

Rumor has always had it that the military would put something in our shitty scrambled eggs to prevent boners. One doesn't think about boners much when the only female you see is the nasty civilian 'special' person serving your food, but when someone brought up the fact that he hadn't even had morning wood in at least a few weeks, everyone agreed that something was at least 'not normal.' Well, one evening as we were all in the showers, this kid who kept trying to get discharged comes running into the head screaming "I got wood! I got wood!" and he wouldn't shut the fuck up about his wood. The Drill Instructor called him a 'sissy faggot' and they discharged him in under a week.

Personally, I could give a shit what side you bat for. I knew some guys that I was pretty sure were gay but when shit hits the proverbial fan, all that goes out the window.
post #24 of 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark
I've heard that argument several times.
It wasn't an argument, Greg. It was a statement about who cares. Whether or not that care is justified is the point of GJ's original posting.
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