Batman Forever vs. Batman and Robin - Page 7

Quote:

 

Don't forget the "Drunken Billionaire Burns Down House" headline in "Batman Begins". Biggest laugh of the movie for me and the friend I watched it with.

Ugh, Nolan humor is the worst. I won't deny it's good for a chuckle or two -- but when almost every single line in various scenes is composed of witty, tongue-in-cheek, almost Crime Scene: Scene of the Crime-level retorts, it gets pretty damn frustrating. I swear, somebody needs to make a Youtube video compilation, Joker's stuff excluded, of all the "jokes" in Begins and TDK, with each clip followed by a laugh track and a nice rimshot.

 

"I need a new suit." "Three buttons is a little nineties, Mr. Wayne!" *rimshot*

 

"You want to be able to turn your head." "Sure make backing out of the driveway a little easier!" *rimshot*

 

"I don't need help." "Not my diagnosis!" *rimshot*

 

"Didn't you get the memo??" *rimshot*

 

Among other things, this kind of horrid, flippant dialogue keeps Nolan from genius territory, in my books.

I liked "didn't you get the memo", not because it was funny but because it was one of those moments that some would call total PWNAGE without coming off phony. Actually a lot better than Gordon's horribly horribly cliche "We got you, you son of a bitch!"

But yeah, the SWAT guy who was riding with Gordon incognito "is that a bazooka? I didn't sign up for this!" was annoying and almost pulled me out of the flick. Anyway, I just want to take the opportunity to say that only Bruce Timm's ever truly GOT Batman, all across the board. Nolan comes close, but not quite as graceful.

I thought that one actually worked, but it just goes to show that Nolan's humor only works when he's being utterly dry about it.  He can deliver a joke on his terms, but when he tries for an obvious, broad punchline it fails worse than my attempt to end thissentence that i began with a srious pPlan

 

Same here, I found that for the most part, the humour was a significant improvement over BB.  The first tumbler sequence has some awful elements; for example 1) where the security guard checks his coffee after the tumblers crashes through the security barrier - I mean who has ever actually done that?  2) The broadly comic reactions shots from the cops - with the exception of "he's driving on the roof top" cop, who's the only one who plays it straight- are horrible in every way.  I think the lack of Goyer really helped TDK, although to give him his credit the newpaper headline in BB was great.

I blame Goyer(perhaps unfairly?) for most of this crap. Only Wesley Snipes can sell his terrible dialogue.

"Have a nice trip, see you next fall!" annoys me to no end.
 

 

"Funny" Nolan lines that need to be killed with fire:

 

Black dude with dreads during BB's climax: "Hey, nice car!"

 

The whole "Nice jacket!" exchange with the hobo in BB. Clumsy as fuck.

 

The worst offender:

 

Bruce Wayne: Sonar. Just like a... [wait for audience laughter]

Lucius Fox: Like a submarine, Mr. Wayne. Like a submarine. [Haha..CUT...Let's got to lunch, everybody!]
 

They're actually Nolan's attempt at making a homage to the 70s James Bond films. Dumb hick cops in a car chase with the protagonist and some guy looking into his drink after seeing some crazy hijinx involving the hero. It makes sense, cause Nolan originally approached Batman because it was always his childhood dream to make a summer blockbuster film, given that he grew up with flicks like THE SPY WHO LOVED ME and RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK.

Cringeworthy humor and dialog has been a batman staple since 89 though.

 

"You want to get nuts!  Lets get nuts!"

 

I reserve special ire for the control room guys in BB:

 

"This whole thing's gonna blow!"

"It's gonna blow!"

"The pressure's to much, it'll blow!"

 

Bad excuse! This is like defending Crystal Skull by saying it's a homage to 50s science fiction B-movies. It just sort of clarifies why it sucks (I do like BB a fuck of a lot more than Skull, though, obviously).

 

Favorite Nolan quip from the leaked audio of the DKR prologue? "What would happen if I took that mask off?" "It would be very painful -- for you!" *rimshot*

Wasn't defending them, just stating why Nolan went that route in BB. IMO, they should have been cut. Batman is racing back to the cave because his girlfriend is dying, so adding in comical elements kinda detracts from the tension.

Watching Batman and Robin got me pondering if it was worse then Transformers 2.  I don't think it even comes close.

It's more fun than SUPER 8 for sure.

 

"Drunken Billionaire Burns Down Home" is the funniest (intentional) joke in any Batman film.
 

 

Ah, but it's Morgan Freeman's knowing smile that pulls that line off. It's only clunky in that Lucius is entirely involved in Batman at that point, and yet him and Bruce are still keeping up the sneaky double speak from Begins.

I thought that was just sort of a plausible deniability thing they were both getting a kick out of

 

 

Not to mention Mr. Exposition is totally redundant anyway.  Didn't they explain the stakes at least twice before that?

 

"Let's get a couple tables together."

"I don't know if they'll let us..."

"They should.  I own the place."  Cue obvious gesture to the staff.

 

The dry humor in these films works well.  It's the obvious gags ("I gotta get me one of those!") that fall flat.

 

There is no comparison. Batman Forever will win the race. He is classy..

Bruce Wayne's dickwaving and cockblocking is always hilarious.  Oh, of course he had to abscond with the Russian ballet when he knew that Dent planned to take Rachel there.

 

 

Quote:

Lucius kind of fascinates me, only because he's a dude enabling a delusional maniac in a pretty much blatant exchange of "I'll make you gadgets for your little nocturnal activities that I secretly find a little crazy if you make me CEO of your company." 

 

This is made pretty tragic when you consider Bruce gave that hobo that jacket YEARS ago, yet that poor hobo STILL has it. 

 

Quote:

This guy had to get fired, right? I mean he pretty much showed how much of a whiny coward he was in front of the undercover boss. There's no way Gordon kept him on the force. Or maybe he just forgot about him until he awkwardly runs into him at the office. 
 

 

It's Shane Rimmer, another gem from the Bond franchise who explains things audiences already know.

*enemy capsule blows up in outer space, cut to SHANE RIMMER*
"IT BLOW'D UP! THE ENEMY!! THE ENEMY IS BLOWN UP!"

Dodging back to the original debate: I have only seen B&R once - and it took two nights to watch, it was so painful - but I've caught BF (in pieces) quite a few times on cable the last few years. I'm inclined now to go with B&R, simply because it's essentially nonstop camp and ridiculousness. BF has a few nice moments, I concede, but those actually make the rest more unbearable rather than the opposite. A pre-surgery, hot Kidman is nothing to sneeze at, for sure, but the movie is really awful. Tommy Lee Jones is entirely wasted as Two-Face (but I still find that shot of Batman IN COURT hilarious). BF also contains one of my favorite Jim Carrey lines of all time: "If you don't picking at that, it's never going to heal," referencing Two-Face's skin condition.

 

And very late to the party, but we're discussing Batsuits: I love the TDK/TDKR suit, at least from the waist up. All spy and official shots from TDKR shooting shows that while it holds its shape and retains its armor-like appearance on torso and arms, the thigh and crotch area bend and ripple, making it very clear it's rubber, not armor. My favorite from all the other films remains the one from BR:

 

 

It doesn't work very well when Batman is actually trying to fight, but I think it's the scariest and most badass of the suits prior to TDK.

 

The BEGINS suit was just "meh" - too much of a retread of the previous suits for me. However, I'd argue the suit itself was actually a lot more supple and flexible than previous suits. Go back and see in BEGINS; Batman does a hell of a lot of crouching, bending and other such actions. This was deliberate; Nolan wanted a Batman that was more a creature of the shadows, and the suit did allow that. Where they gailed - due to time constraints - was solving the "can't turn my neck" problem inherent in all the suits up until TDK.

 

 

 

I find Bale very funny in these moments. He's being so smarmy it's hard not to smile

My favorite suit is the one from TDR, for what it's worth. I love that shot of Bale from the cover of EMPIRE that showed it off
 

 

I rewatched BATMAN FOREVER the other day and it's amazing how chintzy it looks. It is easily the chintziest looking of all the post 89 Batman movies. The sets look like they are literally going to fall over. 

 

IIRC, Nygma's booth actually looks like somebody spray painted cardboard walls and stuck some lights in it.

It's interesting how Batman Forever would essentially qualify as a "reboot" by today's standards. Despite the talent, you could tell the whole thing was much cheaper on account of the dwindling enthusiasm for the franchise after Batman Returns. Some of those sets are just jokes.

 

Even the big finale just looks like an empty warehouse with some lasers and crap. It's like a bad 90's dance club no one goes to.

 

Say what you want about BATMAN AND ROBIN, but it doesn't look cheap. I don't know if that's really a strength though, considering the what a cataclysmic disco inferno it is.

If I recall correctly, Nygma's lair and the circuth are the same set.

Thank you!

 

Also, B&R had icicles pointing sideways on cars wobbling like plastic.  Heheheh.  So goofy, I love it.

 

I think "Batman Forever" has some cool stuff in it, production design-wise. Two-Face's hideout, for example. Obviously it's ridiculous, but it's also fun in a cartoon-y way. The character's look is striking, but as a personality...what a waste. I just realized the other day that when I watched "Captain America", I was thinking to myself "it's really cool of Tommy Lee Jones to lend his talents to a comic book movie, being such an accomplished, Oscar-winning actor" as I enjoyed his performance.

 

Yes, I totally forgot he was actually one of the main villains in one of the Batman movies because his character was such a one note over-the-top nothing. I still have a lot of affection for Carrey's performance and character, though, even if it was largely just a retread of his "The Mask" character.

I think BATMAN FOREVER had some excellent design

 

The circus, the look of Gotham, the weird island at the end, I like it all

Watching BATMAN RETURNS as per my Christmas tradition. This movie is great. Funny, witty, ridiculous, great looking. A total failure as a Batman movie but just a joyously dark mess. I love it. The world is a better place with it in it.

Returns is still my favorite, Dark Knight be damned.

I like Keaton best in RETURNS. His gravelly voice as Bats is perfect and his stare is intense and unnerving. I like his moments as Bruce better than the original BATMAN as well. He's side-lined as a character, sure, but he registers better onscreen. And the cowl looks great. 

I don't like RETURNS, even though it's fashionable in these parts to elevate to the front line of the franchise. I think there are a lot of neat parts, but the movie utterly fails to cohere. And while I agree with Sebastian - it's a horrible Batman movie - I think it's the closest Burton came to getting the character. The title character once again gets completely sidelined for, what, 1/3 to 1/2 the movie? I agree Keaton is terrific in it. I just wish Burton knew how to tell an actual fucking story and wasn't so afraid of the main character. I think there's a great Batman movie buried in there, but I don't think it's even a good movie, let alone a good Batman movie. It is better than the '89 film, but I feel like that's damning with faint praise. 

 

 

And even though I just can't give the Burton films props like others here, I agree with Sebastian, as I wrote above. Keaton really rocks the role here. Too bad he was in a guest star in the film.

WHY DO YOU KEEP DOING THIS TO ME????!!!

Just a few words this Christmas on Bale's BAT VOICE; IMHO the best of the Bat Voices:

 

 

Though Kilmer in FOREVER is my second favorite BAT MAN, his wispery bat voice was nothing special, IMHO. Though the subject of inexplicable scorn online, the bat voice concieved by actor Christian Bale for his collaboration with Christopher Nolan stands as the top Bat Voice of all time, leaving fan favorites like Kevin Conroy outmatched and out classed for general voice mastery in the role

 

IMHO BATMAN shouldn't sound "cool" or tough. He should sound deranged, like the man under the cowl has had a mental break. Bale is putting on a bizarre costume to terrify criminals, and he adopts an impossibly raspy, deep tone for no other reason than he wants to scare the shit out of these people. Perhaps it's a signal that there is a split in his mind and the other voice is the real Wayne being revealed when he is in the costume. Either way, it's not supposed to sound like something natural, that you could take seriously as a speaking voice. It is so odd and jarring precisely because it is meant to force the audience to ask "what is wrong with this guy?" 

​

​Bale's voice is IMHO the best because it's truly frightening. Some people perceive it as Bale trying too hard to sound gruff. The reality is though that it's Wayne who is the one trying to make his voice sound that way, and that makes the character something of a lunatic

Re: Batman Returns

Why was it titled "Batman Returns"? It doesn't seem like he took a break from crime fighting so I never understood why it was titled as such.

 

 

I always just took it to mean that Batman was back in the multiplex. "Batman returns with a brand new movie!"

 

Batman Forever is the title that vexes me

Well, Batman Forever is still better than the 3rd film's original title: Batman For Certain.

He says "I am Bruce Wayne AND Batman" and I'm paraphrasing, but he then says he'll be Batman... forever.

 

 

Oh, right. I still think its a crummy title though

Well, for a second sequel, it's awfully confident.

 

"Batman: Deal With It"

BATMAN NOW AND ALWAYS

Batman: I'll Still Be Here When You Get Back.

BATMAN FUGGEDABOUTIT

Batman: Don't Shut The Light Off When You Leave Because We All Know You'll Be Back.

BATMAN IN PERPETUITY